What are legitimate reasons for citizens owning guns?

[Paladin3]

This i think it the big divide between gun grabbers and gun owners. The value each side places on life. For gun owners most agree that the protection of your and your loved ones lives is a natural human right regardless of government laws on the subject, and that we should be able to protect our lives to the best of our abilities with the best tools we have for that purpose(which is handguns, there is a reason police use them, they are the best tool available for this purpose). So basically, most gun owners highly value their lives and human life in general.


From what i can tell reading these threads, most gun grabbers have the opposite view about value of life and place a low value on it. Most gun grabbers i talk to are under the impression that the police will protect them and when asked what they would do in a life and death situation would call the police. In canada(not sure about the US) it was taken all the way to the supreme court of canada and the ruling was that the RCMP(canadian police force) has no legal obligation to protect the citizens, there job is to enforce the laws, not protect the citizens. Alot of the time enforcing the laws also protects the citizens so i see why some people feel they are obligated to do so, but they have no legal obligation to do so. So, we have gun grabbers wanting to remove the most effective way to defend oneself from attack, and relying on a government agency for protection of their lives that has no mandate or obligation to provide that protection. The only logical conclusion to come to given these facts is that gun grabbers place a low value on human life.

Until we close that divide i think gun grabbers and gun supporters will continue to butt heads. When one does not value human life, it is difficult to argue for a means to protect life.

I'm not sure that the "gun grabbers" don't value life as much as we all do. Nobody wants to die. But I do believe some fool themselves into thinking violence is never necessary. That they will never be put in a position where they will have to fight for their lives, let alone the lives of other innocents.

It's comforting to think that a few laws or police officers will protect us from every having to use violence in self-defense, but it just isn't realistic.

 

[Younigue]

Teaching kids not to touch a gun or common sense life skills is bad since when? You can't possibly think we would be better off not teaching those lessons to our youth, do you? Do you even read what I write or just react irrationally? I think maybe you're speaking out of emotion and not thinking about what you are saying.

Sure.

Don't touch the hot stove compared to don't touch that gun even though America is obsessed with them. Again, add to that dumb and heinous people. Whatever my emotions are... Their emotions are the ones doing damage.

And Eff-you. Did you just call me an emotional WOMAN? I take absolutely NO offense!

 

[Younigue]

I'm not sure that the "gun grabbers" don't value life as much as we all do. Nobody wants to die. But I do believe some fool themselves into thinking violence is never necessary. That they will never be put in a position where they will have to fight for their lives, let alone the lives of other innocents.

It's comforting to think that a few laws or police officers will protect us from every having to use violence in self-defense, but it just isn't realistic.

I don't think violence will ever go away nor am I convinced I will never meet with it. Given that truth, take guns out of the scenario. It's just what makes sense.

Not going to bother looking for the information to back me up but Japan only had six gun deaths last year, the ASSHOLES!

 

[Younigue]

Teaching kids not to touch a gun or common sense life skills is bad since when? You can't possibly think we would be better off not teaching those lessons to our youth, do you? Do you even read what I write or just react irrationally? I think maybe you're speaking out of emotion and not thinking about what you are saying.

I want to respond to this one again. Take guns out of it then "common sense" about guns isn't really an issue. Teach them another way to survive. Say like, hey if your friend wants to jump off a building, don't you do it too little buddy. Also, drinking chemicals? Not for you sunshine. There's this little gem, if someone breaks in to our home, run, call 911, stay safe, don't try to stick around and deal with a bat shit crazy adult too fuking stupid to get his shit together or just too mean to care. But you know, those are just my crazy parenting ideas.

 

[Paladin3]

My answer wasn't straight enough for you? That calls in to question your... Never mind. No, I would NOT want a gun.

Yes, I would make that decision for everyone. Good thing I can't hey?

Alright, I didn't finish the sentence earlier but I will now. Your reading comprehension needs a bit of work. You're a goofball that your take away was this response, weirdo.

Dammit! You seemed more reasonable than some but, ya failed. Good job!

What did I not comprehend? I asked if you rather be armed or unarmed if an intruder was trying to kick down your front door. You said unarmed. And that you would make the same decision for anyone else who found themselves in that awful situation if you could.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, saying you could only actually think that if were qualifying it with the condition that the criminals (currently kicking down your door to get at you and your family) were disarmed as well. Which I don't believe is even remotely possible.

No sane individual could want to be unarmed in a potential fight for the lives of themselves and family, could they?

 

[Paladin3]

I don't think violence will ever go away nor am I convinced I will never meet with it. Given that truth, take guns out of the scenario. It's just what makes sense.

Not going to bother looking for the information to back me up but Japan only had six gun deaths last year, the ASSHOLES!

I totally agree that zero guns in America would be the best overall result for the safety of all. You come up with a reasonable plan that could do so without starting a civil war in this country and I will back you. You can melt all my guns down too and then we can all fight with knives. It will still be criminal vs. law-abiding.

Quoting statistics and comparing us to countries with less gun violence does nothing to disarm America, especially the folks who would flat out refuse to obey your new no gun laws. Remember, murder is and always has been illegal, but people still commit it.

 

[Younigue]

What did I not comprehend? I asked if you rather be armed or unarmed if an intruder was trying to kick down your front door. You said unarmed. And that you would make the same decision for anyone else who found themselves in situation if you could.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, saying you could only actually think that if were qualifying it the condition that the criminals (currently kicking down your door to get at you and your family) were disarmed as well. Which I don't believe is even remotely possible.

No sane individual could want to be unarmed in a potential fight for the lives of themselves and family, could they?

Yes, unarmed. Definitely sane. Well more sane than gun nutters.

I would if I could take everyone's guns... Followed by 'good thing I can't hey?' <--- is that last part where I lost you? Ok, I do not currently nor do I ever expect to be in possession of a magic wand to make it so. Neither do I expect to be granted 3 wishes by some randy genie (yeah, keeping my other 2 wishes to myself thank you very much also no clue why the genie is randy, the perv). Though the chances increase greatly I do not expect my vote to somehow be the only one counted when the ballot question I assume will be worded along the lines of: [insert my name] what do you think? Guns or no guns? Check yes or no... shows up. We both know what my vote would be but seriously, if I had that much power I'd like to think I'd at least have stuff to show for it. Except I don't like stuff... I'd demand a ton load of books though!

 

[Paladin3]

I want to respond to this one again. Take guns out of it then "common sense" about guns isn't really an issue. Teach them another way to survive. Say like, hey if your friend wants to jump off a building, don't you do it too little buddy. Also, drinking chemicals? Not for you sunshine. There's this little gem, if someone breaks in to our home, run, call 911, stay safe, don't try to stick around and deal with a bat shit crazy adult too fuking stupid to get his shit together or just too mean to care. But you know, those are just my crazy parenting ideas.

To be clear, things I don't personally endorse:

1. Jumping off buildings because your friends do.
2. Drinking chemicals because your friends do.
3. Confronting a criminal or attacker, even if you have a gun, if running away is an option.

Any other words you want to put in my mouth? Again, I believe you are letting your emotions take over and not making very rational arguments. It has nothing to do with you being a woman, which I didn't even know until you just said something. So please don't call me sexist, if that's what you're implying.

 

[Paladin3]

Yes, unarmed. Definitely sane. Well more sane than gun nutters.

I would if I could take everyone's guns... Followed by 'good thing I can't hey?' <--- is that last part where I lost you? Ok, I do not currently nor do I ever expect to be in possession of a magic wand to make it so. Neither do I expect to be granted 3 wishes by some randy genie (yeah, keeping my other 2 wishes to myself thank you very much also no clue why the genie is randy, the perv). Though the chances increase greatly I do not expect my vote to somehow be the only one counted when the ballot question I assume will be worded along the lines of: [insert my name] what do you think? Guns or no guns? Check yes or no... shows up. We both know what my vote would be but seriously, if I had that much power I'd like to think I'd at least have stuff to show for it. Except I don't like stuff... I'd demand a ton load of books though!

I'm genuinely sad that you wouldn't even fight for your family's lives. I could almost understand being dedicated enough to a philosophy of non-violence to refuse to protect yourself, but not your family.

I guess we have no more to discuss.

 

[Younigue]

I totally agree that zero guns in America would be the best overall result for the safety of all. You come up with a reasonable plan that could do so without starting a civil war in this country and I will back you. You can melt all my guns down too and then we can all fight with knives. It will still be criminal vs. law-abiding.

Quoting statistics and comparing us to countries with less gun violence does nothing to disarm America, especially the folks who would flat out refuse to obey your new no gun laws. Remember, murder is and always has been illegal, but people still commit it.

I insist. Nay, demand you throw your arms up. If you don't have the answers and I don't have the answers THEY DO NOT EXIST.

As I stated before, I do not have the answers. What's with all the pressure man? You're giving me performance anxiety! I do believe as a country we can solve this issue to acceptable with smarter more powerful minds than mine OR yours.

Shut up! I'll never admit I suggested anyone is smarter than me! Smarter than you? Meh, I won't be betting on any dog in that race.

 

[Younigue]

To be clear, things I don't personally endorse:

1. Jumping off buildings because your friends do.
2. Drinking chemicals because your friends do.
3. Confronting a criminal or attacker, even if you have a gun, if running away is an option.

Any other words you want to put in my mouth? Again, I believe you are letting your emotions take over and not making very rational arguments. It has nothing to do with you being a woman, which I didn't even know until you just said something. So please don't call me sexist, if that's what you're implying.

LOL, there you go again. I wasn't offended. If you still feel like a sexist, that's on you buddy. Sort your shit out man.

Those words were from me not words I put in your mouth. I have no interest in putting anything in your mouth of any kind Paladin. Stop being creepy!

 

[Younigue]

I'm genuinely sad that you wouldn't even fight for your family's lives. I could almost understand being dedicated enough to a philosophy of non-violence to refuse to protect yourself, but not your family.

I guess we have no more to discuss.

Speaking of putting words in people's mouths. I don't want you putting any thing of any kind in my mouth either weirdo. I didn't say I wouldn't fight.

So what have we concluded here. Gun lovers love their families more. Sounds right. Did you know you felt this way from the beginning? Do you still think any one should take you seriously?

And so I go back to... Ugh! You're gross.

 

[Alpha One Seven]

Not exactly, you did see she wrote nuke right?

But you are technically correct. Not sure if the aircraft would come with functioning weapon systems, but the ground vehicles sure do. I remember hearing about this awhile back. http://www.armslist.com/posts/46162...ional-main-battle-tank-with-120mm-live-cannon

ATF has no real problem with someone having a mobile 120mm cannon.

Yep, the nuke you have to build yourself, fairly simple and straight forward process, College kids have done it.

 

[SNC]

Yes, unarmed. Definitely sane. Well more sane than gun nutters.

I would if I could take everyone's guns... Followed by 'good thing I can't hey?' <--- is that last part where I lost you? Ok, I do not currently nor do I ever expect to be in possession of a magic wand to make it so. Neither do I expect to be granted 3 wishes by some randy genie (yeah, keeping my other 2 wishes to myself thank you very much also no clue why the genie is randy, the perv). Though the chances increase greatly I do not expect my vote to somehow be the only one counted when the ballot question I assume will be worded along the lines of: [insert my name] what do you think? Guns or no guns? Check yes or no... shows up. We both know what my vote would be but seriously, if I had that much power I'd like to think I'd at least have stuff to show for it. Except I don't like stuff... I'd demand a ton load of books though!

As a firm believer in the second and an owner of multiple firearms, at this point in my life, I would be OK if you had said wand or wish from a randy guy in a bottle and use it to remove ALL firearms. I know, I know most will find fault with that, I'm alright with it. Until that time I abide by the ol' 'from my cold dead hands' mentality. What would be your second wish? Would there be a pool boy involved?


edit: Last night a 25 year old police officer was shot and killed during a traffic stop. This was one town over from where I lived, this shit needs to stop. And just like those who demand that muslims join forces to stop the radicalized arm, you need to take your own advice. What are we as gun owners going to do to stop the murder of innocent people?

 

[ivwshane]

As a firm believer in the second and an owner of multiple firearms, at this point in my life, I would be OK if you had said wand or wish from a randy guy in a bottle and use it to remove ALL firearms. I know, I know most will find fault with that, I'm alright with it. Until that time I abide by the ol' 'from my cold dead hands' mentality. What would be your second wish? Would there be a pool boy involved?


edit: Last night a 25 year old police officer was shot and killed during a traffic stop. This was one town over from where I lived, this shit needs to stop. And just like those who demand that muslims join forces to stop the radicalized arm, you need to take your own advice. What are we as gun owners going to do to stop the murder of innocent people?

If history is any indication, you'll buy more guns.

I'll send a box of thoughts and prayers to the widow of the killed officer.

 

[Younigue]

As a firm believer in the second and an owner of multiple firearms, at this point in my life, I would be OK if you had said wand or wish from a randy guy in a bottle and use it to remove ALL firearms. I know, I know most will find fault with that, I'm alright with it. Until that time I abide by the ol' 'from my cold dead hands' mentality. What would be your second wish? Would there be a pool boy involved?


edit: Last night a 25 year old police officer was shot and killed during a traffic stop. This was one town over from where I lived, this shit needs to stop. And just like those who demand that muslims join forces to stop the radicalized arm, you need to take your own advice. What are we as gun owners going to do to stop the murder of innocent people?

Stop being one of the people willing to kill. That's literally the first thing you can do. Owning a gun for most gun owners is a blatant admission to a willingness to kill. It is a gun's specific purpose. Sure, many gun owners will try to pretty up additional reasons for owning a gun but guns are killing devices first and foremost.

I have stated a few times what I believe would correct the gun mentality but it's not a quick fix or a fix that soothes the fragile minds of the fearful and paranoid. It could take a generation to create a people too smart, too evolved, too mature to dismiss guns almost entirely but it can happen. Instead the gun owners, the NRA, the gun manufacturers and the bought and paid for governance have the country by its undereducated therefore scared fear sweaty balls. An educated, taken care of (healthy, physically and mentally) society will not see the value in its people owning guns. But in America it just stays true that the people make irrational demands and vote against their own interests. Socialism is a part of America already like it or not but if it's used in a way to improve the quality of ALL the people, the people by and large will become a better people. The fact that Americans fight that concept is mind-fukingly stupid. If the people would insist their tax dollars go in to improving the quality of all people instead of fretting about the undeserving benefiting we could have free education, free healthcare, free daycare, fair wages and less all consuming paranoid fear.

Blah... Let Feardom Reign! Especially if we get to stay dumb, poor, unhealthy, filled with misguided righteous indignation and armed! And my tax money goes to things that won't help me but that's ok as long as it doesn't help anyone else undeserving by my own code of deserving, gawd-dammit!

 

[Atreus21]

Stop being one of the people willing to kill. That's literally the first thing you can do. Owning a gun for most gun owners is a blatant admission to a willingness to kill. It is a gun's specific purpose. Sure, many gun owners will try to pretty up additional reasons for owning a gun but guns are killing devices first and foremost.

Obviously. Some things are worth killing for. Self-preservation for example. If you can't agree even with that premise, then as paladin said there isn't much else we can discuss.

If the people would insist their tax dollars go in to improving the quality of all people instead of fretting about the undeserving benefiting we could have free education, free healthcare, free daycare, fair wages and less all consuming paranoid fear.

Uh boy.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Obviously. Some things are worth killing for. Self-preservation for example. If you can't agree even with that premise, then as paladin said there isn't much else we can discuss.



Uh boy.

Uh boy. Until she ran out of other peoples money.

 

[Younigue]

Obviously. Some things are worth killing for. Self-preservation for example. If you can't agree even with that premise, then as paladin said there isn't much else we can discuss.

I never said I couldn't or wouldn't but given I possess no guns it wouldn't be with a gun. That being said, I don't have any clue whether I could take a life for any reason. It's likely neither do you.

It's a bunch of bullshit that so many people convince themselves taking a life even in the most dire of situations is something they know they can do. It's a form of posturing from the types who own guns. In my personal life I verbally demolish men who posture in my general direction. Those who posture are weak, insecure and small. Posturing never comes from a place of confidence. The places it does come from are either hysterical or so sad and pathetic and should never elicit in anyone a sense of pride or true security. It's why I have no faith in most gun owners.

All that aside, thanks for dismissing me from the conversation. You must be very big, very important and very strong. It's not likely I'll learn my place but surely your ego is such that confirming to me that you are utterly worthless in a gun discussion just as Paladin is, won't phase you. Because you know you're right, whatever that means doesn't much matter as long as all of your arguments mean guns stay in the hands of the idiots who see no other way. Other countries may succeed but NOT America! That kind of success just makes far too many men's dicks crawl up inside of them. The dumb, False Protectors, Penis Envious, Scared little bitches need their guns because just because. A small voice throbs in their heads about how maybe Americans are just too afraid and too dumb to get it done. If you think guns must stay then yes, you are too dumb to help with the gun/gun violence problem but hey... You don't want to, not really.

If only your dismissal meant a single fuking thing, right? The weakness you'd feel if you didn't have a right to own a gun must be the thing of nightmares for you. Let's be clear, it's the owning of a gun that makes a person believe they are strong. It does not actually make them strong. At least you have confidence that your guns won't ever be taken away except you live in constant fear of it.

So, that brings me to this. You sir are dismissed from this conversation since I have concluded you have nothing of value to add to it. Let's see how well that works.

 

[twjr]

Uh boy.

Uh boy. Until she ran out of other peoples money.

You know there are plenty of countries that have all those things and still have strong economies, right? No, of course, you don't. For generations, you have been told that trickle down economics and laissez-faire capitalism can solve everything.

On topic. Personally, I think that firearm ownership for hunting/sports, collecting and employment is acceptable. Self-defense and fighting a tyrannical government are weak justifications for those that want to own guns "just because".

 

[Atreus21]

I never said I couldn't or wouldn't but given I possess no guns it wouldn't be with a gun. That being said, I don't have any clue whether I could take a life for any reason. It's likely neither do you.

Of course I don't, but the question isn't of just capability to take a life, but willingness to do so when the chips are down.

It's a bunch of bullshit that so many people convince themselves taking a life even in the most dire of situations is something they know they can do.

With exception of those who worked in military or LE, I tend to agree. But again that's not the point.

It's a form of posturing from the types who own guns. In my personal life I verbally demolish men who posture in my general direction. Those who posture are weak, insecure and small. Posturing never comes from a place of confidence. The places it does come from are either hysterical or so sad and pathetic and should never elicit in anyone a sense of pride or true security. It's why I have no faith in most gun owners.

I agree here too.

All that aside, thanks for dismissing me from the conversation. You must be very big, very important and very strong.

I am enormous, terribly important and magnificently strong, I confess.

It's not likely I'll learn my place but surely your ego is such that confirming to me that you are utterly worthless in a gun discussion just as Paladin is, won't phase you. Because you know you're right, whatever that means doesn't much matter as long as all of your arguments mean guns stay in the hands of the idiots who see no other way. Other countries may succeed but NOT America! That kind of success just makes far too many men's dicks crawl up inside of them. The dumb, False Protectors, Penis Envious, Scared little bitches need their guns because just because.

We want guns to more effectively protect ourselves and loved ones. Or at least I do.

A small voice throbs in their heads about how maybe Americans are just too afraid and too dumb to get it done. If you think guns must stay then yes, you are too dumb to help with the gun/gun violence problem but hey... You don't want to, not really.

If only your dismissal meant a single fuking thing, right? The weakness you'd feel if you didn't have a right to own a gun must be the thing of nightmares for you.

It is indeed. I've definitely had a nightmare where someone invades my home with a gun, and my life and my family's hangs on my ability to meet the threat with a hatchet.

Let's be clear, it's the owning of a gun that makes a person believe they are strong. It does not actually make them strong.

Depends on your definition of strength. In a fight, superior firepower is most definitely strength.

At least you have confidence that your guns won't ever be taken away except you live in constant fear of it.

So, that brings me to this. You sir are dismissed from this conversation since I have concluded you have nothing of value to add to it. Let's see how well that works.

Aw. I've been dismissed from my own thread.

Guess I'll go tell my mom.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

You know there are plenty of countries that have all those things and still have strong economies, right? No, of course, you don't. For generations, you have been told that trickle down economics and laissez-faire capitalism can solve everything.

On topic. Personally, I think that firearm ownership for hunting/sports, collecting and employment is acceptable. Self-defense and fighting a tyrannical government are weak justifications for those that want to own guns "just because".

How long have you lived in Venezuela? Zimbabwe?

 

[Younigue]

. Aw. I've been dismissed from my own thread.

Guess I'll go tell my mom.

It amused me...

Not sure why you gotta bug ya mom about it. Give the woman some peace already. She already has to deal with her child's fear-based gun ownership and (persistent?) nightmares of an inability to measure up to the gun power all around him.

 

[Thebobo]

How long have you lived in Venezuela? Zimbabwe?

Ok this sounds fun, how long have you lived in Russia? North Korea?

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Ok this sounds fun, how long have you lived in Russia? North Korea?

Those are places you want to live, not me. Old Communist and totalitarian states fit right in with your politics.