I will rephrase. The Catholic Church does not primarily base it's beliefs/doctrines on Scripture. If they did, there would have been no Protestant Reformation.
I will rephrase. The Catholic Church does not primarily base it's beliefs/doctrines on Scripture. If they did, there would have been no Protestant Reformation.
I feel sorry for any kids for whom Harry Potter is NOT AT ALL a part of their literary experience.
Define "Classically Educated."
In what way? It's a freaking fantasy novel. Heck it's never explicitly stated that Gandalf and Saruman are not human, except for the fact that they refer to "men" they usually don't seem to be referring to themselves. Of course, in Harry Potter, all they talk about is "Us" and "Muggles." They never explicitly state in either series that one is not the other.
Regardless, you simply derailed the argument that HUMAN OR NOT, in both Harry Potter AND LOTR, Magic can be and was used for both good and evil.
Do you have any other rebuttal than "But you're wrong?"
Michael
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Why are you arguing with "JupiterJones" when he seems to be caught up in whatever propaganda his church preaches. To say that the Protestant Reformation came about because of "not being based on scripture" is such a simplistic (and historically inaccurate) description that I see no point in further discussion. The whole "our reading of scritpure is purer than yours" is one of the dumb arguments between different Christian faiths (I can't wait for him to claim that Catholics are not Christian, that one of the other dumb arguements that gets brought out).
Michael
ps - I was right in a side bet on how long before Catholic/religion bashers would swarm into this thread and bring up the recent scandals.
Michael
ps - I was right in a side bet on how long before Catholic/religion bashers would swarm into this thread and bring up the recent scandals.
Haha, you beleive in sorcery. I'm going to cast a spell on you! Alacazam, poof! You shall no longer beleive in stupid superstitious crap, such as the ability to perform magic. Did it work?
Did I ever say HP should be the height of their literary experience? All I said was that there are A LOT of fantasy novels / games / movies, where the good guys are human and use magic. And I would HATE to be the kid who is taught that any and all of these items are inherently evil because they go against god's will. Can a child play Final Fantasy? Obviously that is deep routed in magic. What about old folk lore and myths?
I think it is insanely funny that anytime a human is portrayed as magical, you automatically classify it as bad. Even though we are talking about fantasy aka the land of make believe aka stuff that isn't real. Unless, of course, your religion is so incredibly fragile that even the land of make believe may break the hold. Come to think of it, is Peter Pan outlawed by the church? He was obviously a human who used magic.
there were many reasons for the reformation.
if you want to know whether the doctrines are biblically based, then request a meeting with a local Church's priest or director of religious education to discuss your questions.
Was Peter Pan a human? I seem to remember pointed ears, even though it has been a while since I have seen the movie. Every book and/or movie has to be measured on it's own merits. It is my opinion that my kids miss nothing by passing on Harry Potter, and perchance avoid something which should be avoided. Fantasy that focuses entirely on wizardry and pagan gods would be immediately suspect. I would probably let the kids (Jr. High) read the L. Sprague de Camp Conan novels, because it is good literature, even though the Christian God is absent and Crom does make at least one appearance.
Why do we do it? Because we like to pick fights. Without a good flame war every once in a while, OT gets boring.
Did you form that opinion because you actually read the books, or are you just taking at face value what other potentially misguided humans have told you?
Where is the Christian God in LOTR? It was written by a Christian. You might be able to dig up some Christian symbolism, of course you could also dig up homosexual symbolism if you so desire. The people in LOTR are not Christians. Jesus was not the savior of the people of Middle Earth. Middle Earth was not spoken into existence by God, at least not in the history presented by Tolkein himself.
Oh, and I won't hold my breath on the Good Magic/Bad Magic argument.
If I recall correctly, the lost boys were human but tinkerbell wasn't (she was a fairy). Also, In the movie "the hook", Peter Pan ends up getting married and having kids (an awesome movie, FYI).
And also, anything that focuses on Wizardry is not inherently "pagan". But I would wonder what you think of things such as: the japaneese manga "Berserk" where god and the devil are the same being -- The Idea. Do you read such things or do you completely block them? Obviously Berserk isn't for children and I wouldn't expect you to give it to a child, but would you ever read it in your lifetime, or is it blacklisted forever?
And what about Final Fantasy? One of the most popular video game series in existence. A series every kid I've ever met has enjoyed playing at least at one time or another.
I have not read the books, though I did read about thirty minutes worth of the first one at books-a-million. I did watch the movie (DVD) at a point when I was considering if I should let my 8 year old see it. I don't think the kids missed much.
God is absent from LOTR, but I found nothing hostile to the Christian Faith, while at the same time being great literature. Not all fiction needs be about God, but we can certainly ovoid presenting as good that which God says is evil.
I'm not sure what you might be holding your breath about. Gandalf is a powerful being, not a caster of spells. He does not go around gathering components for spells or memorizing spells out of a spellbook. Comparing him and Harry Potter is apples and oranges.
What is good about Harry Potter that is not present in countless thousands of other books?
I don't know anything about the Final Fantasy series. As far as Berserk, I am likewise ignorant. I am currently reading Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series, which certainly has it's share of problems. I am at a point in my life where I can indulge in such things without it unduly effecting my outlook. Most children (heck, most young adults) cannot. Since my kids are being educated under the Classical model they will spend a great deal of time in the Dialectic and Rhetoric stages reading literature from opposing world views, but not before they are equipped to do so critically. At High School age, they can read anything they want to read.
You have yet to come up with anything convincing in Harry Potter as presenting anything good which God says is evil. Of course you haven't read the books so how can you even come up with an educated opinion?
I am referring to your statement that in Harry Potter MAGIC CAN BE USED FOR BOTH GOOD AND EVIL which was easily countered by the fact that Saruman used for ill the same magical powers that Gandalf used for good. You continue to derail that argument with excuses like "Well Gandalf and Saruman aren't humans" but that has no bearing on whether or not their magic was used for good or evil.
Magic is magic. How does one author's visualization of something fantastic have any influence on whether it is good or evil? Harry Potter and his consorts do most of their conjuring by the use of magic wands and incantations. Likewise, Gandalf and Saruman do their conjuring by the use of staves and incantations. What's the difference? Harry Potter takes a class where he learns to concoct potions? What difference does that make? If that's your tack, then how does the ritual the Jews in Egypt had to perform at Passover NOT constitute witchcraft? They had to memorize procedures, gather ingredients, paint their door jambs with lambs' blood.
Edit: Oh, and how do you know Gandalf didn't learn spells out of a book? The story depicts him as an educated, literate man. Where he learned his spells is not defined.
What is good in any book that is not present in the Bible? By that logic, every other book is evil.
Everybody knows that Harry Potter is actually baby Jesus in disguise. You just have to read all the books to understand Rowling's message.
And if you haven't read all the books, don't bother trying to refute this message.
And if you haven't read all the books, don't bother trying to refute this message.
You continue to derail that argument with excuses like "Well Gandalf and Saruman aren't humans" but that has no bearing on whether or not their magic was used for good or evil.
There is a tremendous difference. The wizards of Tolkien's world are angelic beings who appear to use innate abilities. Gandalf is no more a sorcerer (in the Harry Potter sense) than is the Balrog.
don't ultra-conservative Christian's have anything better to do than call books like Harry Potter blasphemy? Its a freakin kids book! I doubt any Christian kid in the friggin world reads a Harry Potter book and then decides not to be Christian because of it.
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