WAY TO GO VATICAN! Re: Harry Potter

[glen]

Right, so Potter doesn't do any "Wicca" it is just magic.
No different than "Superman".. oh, wait he gets his power from the Sun, is that Sun worship?
None of it is real.
Just because some "Wicca?s" think it is real, doesn't mean it is.
You have got to be more fearful in life of real problems, like kids not reading, than some dude jumping out in front of you yelling "Hocus Pocus Squiggly jiggly!"

 

[Ameesh]

Originally posted by: Fausto1
All good and well that the Vatican "approves" of Harry Potter, but that it's even up for discussion is kind of pathetic IMO. I mean, it's just a BOOK fer crying out loud.

HERETIC!!!!

 

[JupiterJones]

Originally posted by: glen
Right, so Potter doesn't do any "Wicca" it is just magic.
No different than "Superman".. oh, wait he gets his power from the Sun, is that Sun worship?
None of it is real.
Just because some "Wicca?s" think it is real, doesn't mean it is.
You have got to be more fearful in life of real problems, like kids not reading, than some dude jumping out in front of you yelling "Hocus Pocus Squiggly jiggly!"

What does illiteracy have to do with Harry Potter? There are plenty of good books that are better reading for Christians.

1000 Good Books List

When you say that Witchcraft is not real, do you intend to say that magic is not real?

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: JupiterJones

Originally posted by: glen
Right, so Potter doesn't do any "Wicca" it is just magic.
No different than "Superman".. oh, wait he gets his power from the Sun, is that Sun worship?
None of it is real.
Just because some "Wicca?s" think it is real, doesn't mean it is.
You have got to be more fearful in life of real problems, like kids not reading, than some dude jumping out in front of you yelling "Hocus Pocus Squiggly jiggly!"

What does illiteracy have to do with Harry Potter? There are plenty of good books that are better reading for Christians.

1000 Good Books List

When you say that Witchcraft is not real, do you intend to say that magic is not real?

I think I love the Baby Jesus just as much as the next guy, but those of you who make misguded attacks on HP really embarass the rest of us. You folks make Christians look like fools. It is hard enough to have faith, much less convert anyone, when a hand full of you are running around afraid of childrens books.

 

[Jzero]

What does illiteracy have to do with Harry Potter? There are plenty of good books that are better reading for Christians. 1000 Good Books List When you say that Witchcraft is not real, do you intend to say that magic is not real?

How do you reconcile the fact that both Lord Of The Rings/The Hobbit and the Narnia series are both on this list? Both feature magic, talking animals, and other common fantasy elements. What's the difference?

 

[glen]

How about LOTR?
Afraid of it too?
Is that magic ok?
And, if it isn't How about The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe?
C.S. Lewis and Tolkien are generally considered the greatest Christian authors of the last century.

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: Jzero

What does illiteracy have to do with Harry Potter? There are plenty of good books that are better reading for Christians. 1000 Good Books List When you say that Witchcraft is not real, do you intend to say that magic is not real?

How do you reconcile the fact that both Lord Of The Rings/The Hobbit and the Narnia series are both on this list? Both feature magic, talking animals, and other common fantasy elements. What's the difference?

Even has "Witch" in the title.

 

[glen]

I will have to say it is Ironic.
Jesus comes down here and gets killed doing so, be cause he was saying don?t throw rocks at the hookers, Samaritans are good people, and his Mom is an out of wedlock pregnant teenager. Then the ?Church? turns him in!

Don?t you see the modern parallels?
Hint Muslims are our modern Samaritans.

Look, I am glad you heart is full of Jesus, because you act like your head is full of rocks.

 

[Miramonti]

as 50 million more books suddenly fly of bookstore shelves...

 

[JupiterJones]

Originally posted by: glen
How about LOTR?
Afraid of it too?
Is that magic ok?
And, if it isn't How about The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe?
C.S. Lewis and Tolkien are generally considered the greatest Christian authors of the last century.

The Lord of the Rings VS. Harry Potter

In Lewis, the Witch is evil while the Lion is a Type of Christ.

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: JupiterJones

In Lewis, the Witch is evil while the Lion is a Type of Christ.

In real life, I?m Montgomery Burns, and you are Ned Flanders.

 

[Kadarin]

A year ago or so my then g/f began to get interested in Christianity, and the particular pastor she went to had a favorite expression: "That's just fodder for Harry Potter." I wonder if the Vatican's new position will change his opinion in any way (doubt it; religious nutcases tend to remain religious nutcases, despite common sense).

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: JupiterJones

Originally posted by: glen How about LOTR? Afraid of it too? Is that magic ok? And, if it isn't How about The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe? C.S. Lewis and Tolkien are generally considered the greatest Christian authors of the last century.

The Lord of the Rings VS. Harry Potter In Lewis, the Witch is evil while the Lion is a Type of Christ.

What is the difference between the wizards of Middle Earth being an exclusive order that you basically have to be born into, and the Hogwart's academy being just another school for gifted and talented kids? Gifted and talented kids aren't BORN with those gifts and talents?

This dubious article splits some very narrow hairs. Where do you draw the line between a "Wizard" and a "Witch?" The literary world is full of reference to "Witches" and when they occur in a fictional book, they vary widely from story-to-story much the same as dragons, goblins, trolls, etc. So are we to believe, for instance, that the Disney film PETE'S DRAGON is actually inherently evil because while the likes of Tolkein portray dragons as evil, greedy creatures, this film portrays them as gentle, friendly and misunderstood?

Both Harry Potter and LOTR portray similar facts - not everyone can be a wizard, and magic can be used both for good and ill. Both Saruman and Gandalf belonged to the same order, yet Saruman used his great powers for ill while Gandalf only used his powers for good.

No different. At the end of the day, the heart of the matter is that Rowling isn't recognized as a Christian writer the way CS Lewis and JRR Tolkein were. The crux is a bunch of fools trying to be exclusive, and quite frankly, exclusivity strikes at the very heart of Christianity.

 

[JupiterJones]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: JupiterJones

Originally posted by: glen How about LOTR? Afraid of it too? Is that magic ok? And, if it isn't How about The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe? C.S. Lewis and Tolkien are generally considered the greatest Christian authors of the last century.

The Lord of the Rings VS. Harry Potter In Lewis, the Witch is evil while the Lion is a Type of Christ.

What is the difference between the wizards of Middle Earth being an exclusive order that you basically have to be born into, and the Hogwart's academy being just another school for gifted and talented kids? Gifted and talented kids aren't BORN with those gifts and talents?

This dubious article splits some very narrow hairs. Where do you draw the line between a "Wizard" and a "Witch?" The literary world is full of reference to "Witches" and when they occur in a fictional book, they vary widely from story-to-story much the same as dragons, goblins, trolls, etc. So are we to believe, for instance, that the Disney film PETE'S DRAGON is actually inherently evil because while the likes of Tolkein portray dragons as evil, greedy creatures, this film portrays them as gentle, friendly and misunderstood?

Both Harry Potter and LOTR portray similar facts - not everyone can be a wizard, and magic can be used both for good and ill. Both Saruman and Gandalf belonged to the same order, yet Saruman used his great powers for ill while Gandalf only used his powers for good.

No different. At the end of the day, the heart of the matter is that Rowling isn't recognized as a Christian writer the way CS Lewis and JRR Tolkein were. The crux is a bunch of fools trying to be exclusive, and quite frankly, exclusivity strikes at the very heart of Christianity.

Well, you certainly have an opinion. If a Christian wrote Harry Potter, the same objections would remain. There is one guy writing a Harry Potter Bible study, focusing on how (in his opinion) the Harry Potter books mirror the gospel (his mom being a type of Christ, etc...). He has come under the same criticism. You are trying to make it seem that there is some sort of double standard here, which is untrue. All of the works in question are held to one standard - the Bible. Lewis and Tolkien stand up much better when compared to that standard than does Rawlings.

 

[glen]

Name ONE lesson taught in HP that is contrary to anything in the Bible.

 

[Jzero]

Well, you certainly have an opinion. If a Christian wrote Harry Potter, the same objections would remain.

Well, there's no way we're going to prove or disprove that point, but you did conveniently ignore my other points.

There is one guy writing a Harry Potter Bible study, focusing on how (in his opinion) the Harry Potter books mirror the gospel (his mom being a type of Christ, etc...). He has come under the same criticism.

What does that prove? If you believe that Harry Potter is evil, then naturally you would believe a study focused on the series would also be evil.

You are trying to make it seem that there is some sort of double standard here, which is untrue.

Do you know this for a fact, or are you making the opposite conjecture of the one I made?

All of the works in question are held to one standard - the Bible. Lewis and Tolkien stand up much better when compared to that standard than does Rawlings.

How are they "held up" to that standard? All three are works of fiction/fantasy and include elements that, without proper parental interaction, a child could completely misunderstand. What is the difference between the Tolkein and Lewis works and the Rowling works? I can think of only one.
And that one guy's misguided opinion that you posted is the "standard"? Of course I already challenged a few of his points, but you didn't respond to those points.

 

[loup garou]

Why even bother arguing with this nutball? Just laugh and keep living your life with an open mind.

 

[JupiterJones]

Originally posted by: glen
Name ONE lesson taught in HP that is contrary to anything in the Bible.

Magic is neutral and can be used for good or evil.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: JupiterJones

Originally posted by: glen Name ONE lesson taught in HP that is contrary to anything in the Bible.

Magic is neutral and can be used for good or evil.

I already pointed out that this occurs in LOTR. Saruman used magic for evil. Gandalf used magic for good. The magic of The Ring was evil.
Gandalf and Saruman were of the same order and used the same magic in two different ways.

 

[SaltBoy]

Originally posted by: JupiterJones

Originally posted by: glen
Name ONE lesson taught in HP that is contrary to anything in the Bible.

Magic is neutral and can be used for good or evil.

But what is magic? Christ raising Lazarus from the dead could be interpreted by some as magic... that was a good purpose.

 

[skace]

I feel bad for JupiterJones' kids if he tries to pass on some belief that any book that portrays magic users as good as inherently evil and against religion. That means they won't be able to experience any video games, books or movies that are fantasy based (as almost all of these have a good magic user). Fantasy is a large part of the imagination, which basically deprives a child of their imagination.

To say LOTR is any different than HP is very silly. If anything, LOTR is a lot more 'blood and gore' than HP is, yet with the same underlining principles.

 

[JupiterJones]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: JupiterJones

Originally posted by: glen Name ONE lesson taught in HP that is contrary to anything in the Bible.

Magic is neutral and can be used for good or evil.

I already pointed out that this occurs in LOTR. Saruman used magic for evil. Gandalf used magic for good. The magic of The Ring was evil.
Gandalf and Saruman were of the same order and used the same magic in two different ways.

And you were wrong. Gandalf and Saruman were not human.

 

[Spamela]

Originally posted by: JupiterJones

Originally posted by: Fausto1

Originally posted by: JupiterJones

Originally posted by: Bignate603
Sounds like the Vatican is being reasonable. Maybe this will calm down some of those people who assume that children cannot figure out what is reality and what is fiction. It's a freakin story. By the time a kid can read it, they can tell the difference.

The problem with the Harry Potter books is not that some child might think that the Hogwarts School of Magic is real, it's that the books present something which is evil in a positive light.

What "evil" do they portray in a positive light exactly?

Magic/Sorcery. Most children who read Harry Potter think that it would be neat to be able to perform magic. Sorcery is condemned in Scripture, without exception. Anyone who bases their beliefs on Scripture (i.e. the evangelicals who condemn the Harry Potter series) would have a problem with the books. The Catholic church does not base it's beliefs/doctrines on Scripture (hence the Protestant Reformation), and therefore could come out in favor of Harry Potter based on it's good vs. evil plot lines

someone has grossly misinformed you about Catholicism.

 

[JupiterJones]

Originally posted by: skace
I feel bad for JupiterJones' kids if he tries to pass on some belief that any book that portrays magic users as good as inherently evil and against religion. That means they won't be able to experience any video games, books or movies that are fantasy based (as almost all of these have a good magic user). Fantasy is a large part of the imagination, which basically deprives a child of their imagination.

To say LOTR is any different than HP is very silly. If anything, LOTR is a lot more 'blood and gore' than HP is, yet with the same underlining principles.

Once again, blood and gore are not necessarily anti-Biblical (just read the OT). A positive and appealing presentation of children using magic is. There is plenty of good fantasy. Maybe you should spend more time in the Library. My children are Classically Educated and literature is primary in all grades. I feel sorry for any kids for whom Harry Potter is the height of their literary experience.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: JupiterJones

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: JupiterJones

Originally posted by: glen Name ONE lesson taught in HP that is contrary to anything in the Bible.

Magic is neutral and can be used for good or evil.

I already pointed out that this occurs in LOTR. Saruman used magic for evil. Gandalf used magic for good. The magic of The Ring was evil. Gandalf and Saruman were of the same order and used the same magic in two different ways.

And you were wrong. Gandalf and Saruman were not human.

What does that have to do with anything? The argument you stated is Magic is neutral and can be used for good or evil.

Nonetheless:
One could easily stake the claim that Harry Potter is indeed not "human." Because in the confines of the books, there are Muggles and there are Magicians, and the two are distinct. A Muggle cannot choose to be a Magician any more than a Hobbit (or even a human) can choose to become a wizard. Gandalf and Saruman look like people. Magicians in Harry Potter look like Muggles.

These are fantasy novels. Applying real-world conventions to them does not work. You have to evaluate each story in itself.