Was Bruce Lee the greatest fighter of all time?

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UThomas

Senior member
Apr 18, 2000
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Dude, Maurice Smith was 6' 2", 220 lb heavy weight kick boxing champion. Not exactly weak. He was not 135 lbs like Bruce was. Bruce would get manhandled by Maurice or Tank.

"Boxers and martial artists are become silly puddy when faced with a great greco roman wrestler."

Greco wrestlers suck in martial arts competitions without extensive cross training. For wrestling, free style guys do much better. Where are some of you guys getting this?

Thomas
 

Hubris

Platinum Member
Jul 14, 2001
2,749
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<< Bruce Lee was a pioneer in mixed martial arts, but the sport is beyond him now and if he were to take his skills out there now he would be average. >>



Well, jeez, that's like comparing a musket with a modern machine gun. Of course the machine gun's going to win. This entire argument is a phallacy, because there are always advancements that invalidate the past. Maybe a better question would be, was Bruce Lee the best fighter of his time? Whether he was or not, he was an impressive fighter.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
3
0


<< Well, jeez, that's like comparing a musket with a modern machine gun. Of course the machine gun's going to win. This entire argument is a phallacy, because there are always advancements that invalidate the past. Maybe a better question would be, was Bruce Lee the best fighter of his time? Whether he was or not, he was an impressive fighter. >>

I agree!
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
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There are many ways to reach the same end point (the other guy lying in a bloody heap) and Lee took one way(speed) while the guys in UFC mostly all took the other ( enough strength to pop somebody's arm off and use it as a toothpick).
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81


<<

<< Boxers and martial artists are become silly puddy when faced with a great greco roman wrestler. >>



Well why don't you find a great Greco Roman Wrestler to join UFC and fight the likes of Alex Rijos, Royce Gracie, and Igor Vovchanchyn(the Russian Concussion). :)
>>



The money is'nt there for the real greats and what do you think the Concussion was originally reared in? BTW- Ever see UFC 6 where Tank Abbott, "The Human Concussion Machine," essentially reduced Paul Varelans' face to a bowl of Chef Boy-Ar-Dee brand ravioli. Abbott is also greco trained.
 

CrazyDe1

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
3,089
0
0
No real martial arts expert is going to fight in ultimate fighting...its a joke...its a ploy to make money..the types of people that fight in these are street fighters...former boxers, self proclaimed taekwondo experts and such...a real tournament I could see...but ultimate fighting is by no means a reflection of the best martial arts out there or the best fighters...in most cases its a bunch of guys on the street that see an ad, go and tryout to try and make some money out of it
Most of the time these guys in ultimate fighting are just skilled in bar brawls...if I remember right, I think I read in espn the magazine that only recently did these guys start training for fights...it used to be just walkin fight and leave...how can you say a street fighter who doesn't train is better than a martial artist training for 20-30 years?
 

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
1,464
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i think there's a difference between fighting that you see in ufc and "real" street fighting where you'll probably be fighting to the death.

in ufc, you still have to hold back a bit, you're not going out there looking to kill someone so different tactics come into play.

also, i dont know if anyone mentioned, but bruce lee was also very skilled in weapons, which are again a whole different story altogether, but still should be counted in terms of fighting ability. just mho.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
3
0


<< No real martial arts expert is going to fight in ultimate fighting...its a joke...its a ploy to make money..the types of people that fight in these are street fighters...former boxers, self proclaimed taekwondo experts and such...a real tournament I could see...but ultimate fighting is by no means a reflection of the best martial arts out there or the best fighters...in most cases its a bunch of guys on the street that see an ad, go and tryout to try and make some money out of it
Most of the time these guys in ultimate fighting are just skilled in bar brawls...if I remember right, I think I read in espn the magazine that only recently did these guys start training for fights...it used to be just walkin fight and leave...how can you say a street fighter who doesn't train is better than a martial artist training for 20-30 years?
>>

Well like I said before if the other guys are only going to play at their own stuff how can they prove it? I remember seeing an olympic tae kwon do match in the last olympics and it was absolutely the most retarded thing ever. Those people weren't fighting, they were prancing around like morons. Watch a professional tae kwon do match and you'll see what an absolute farce that sport is at the competitive level. Take the top tae kwon do guy and watch him smacked into bitch land in UFC. Most martial arts are so incredibly controlled that they are incredibly unlike any real fight.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I forgot about UFC champ Randy Couture also a greco and he could'nt even make the US olympic team.
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,302
0
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I love these silly martial arts threads.....you might as well argue whether Batman could take Superman!!
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator and Elite Member
Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
25,406
10,983
146
Why not just start a Fantasy Martial Arts league
Come on guys, you can banter this topic around endlessly and resolve nothing! As to the assertions being made by some of the posters in this thread about their personal fighting prowess.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D You'd give Bruce Lee a run for his money??? Yeah, and monkeys will fly out of your butt! And that comment about big men not being as skilled....typical "little man syndrome" talk ;) Now STFU Napolean :p
 

UThomas

Senior member
Apr 18, 2000
251
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0
"ultimate fighting is by no means a reflection of the best martial arts out there or the best fighters"

Dude, you are wrong. Period. I don't care what ESPN says, there have been and continue to be very very talented martial artists in UFC/Pride/etc. They have had Olympic judo players, Olympic free style and greco wrestlers, kickboxing world champions, Brazilian Jiu jitsu champions, Muy Thai champions, etc. Many of these Olympic guys are a couple years out of their Olympic days, but to say they are bar room brawlers with no training is just incorrect. And if you think some 50 year old Tai Chi guy could beat them and grab $100k but chooses not to you have not spent much time training in many styles or you believe in fairy tails.

Have you watched mixed martial arts any time in the last 5 years?

And, in summation: Was Bruce Lee the greatest fighter of all time?

NO.

Thomas
 

soccerbud34

Senior member
Nov 15, 2001
747
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0


<<
Dude, you are wrong. Period. I don't care what ESPN says, there have been and continue to be very very talented martial artists in UFC/Pride/etc. They have had Olympic judo players, Olympic free style and greco wrestlers, kickboxing world champions, Brazilian Jiu jitsu champions, Muy Thai champions, etc. Many of these Olympic guys are a couple years out of their Olympic days, but to say they are bar room brawlers with no training is just incorrect. And if you think some 50 year old Tai Chi guy could beat them and grab $100k but chooses not to you have not spent much time training in many styles or you believe in fairy tails.

Have you watched mixed martial arts any time in the last 5 years?

And, in summation: Was Bruce Lee the greatest fighter of all time?

NO.

Thomas
>>



Thomas,

I think this will be a interesting read for you ... its a thread discussing the many aspects of UFC .... linky
 

UThomas

Senior member
Apr 18, 2000
251
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0
Thanks for the link. There is a much bigger forum at www.mmatv.com. Its excellent.

I apologize in advanced if I come across as arrogant on this topic, but sometimes misinformation can become contagious so you have to nip it in the bud.

Thomas
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator and Elite Member
Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
25,406
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<< There are hundreds of guys alive today that would have beat Bruce Lee in his prime. Very athletic and pretty skilled, but the guy was like 135 lbs. Hell, I'd give him a run for his money.

Thomas
>>

To show good faith that your remorse over arrogance in this thread is not false humility would you care to retract the preceeding assertion? I'm not impeaching your skills just your self-perception and lack of respect for a benefactor who's actions helped ensure you'd have an opportunity to develope them.
 

JMaster

Golden Member
Feb 9, 2000
1,240
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I don't know too much about Jeet Kune Do except that it looks cool.

I think the best martial arts in the world is San Su Kung Fu. It's what the Seals use. I know this guy that held a black belt in it. For fun, 5 or 6 of us would sneak up behind us and try to attack/pin him down but we would always end up on the floor in defeat. Anyway, he said that San Su martial artists don't use it as a sport, but only as an art and self-defense. That's why you never see REAL fighters trained in Kung Fu in those fighting championships, such as UFC. Also, UFC rules limit San Su because face it, when you are defending yourself, you don't care if you hit the guy in the groin, eye, etc... It has kill moves too (I'm pretty other martial arts have them too), but again San Su fighters are disciplined not to use their art in anything else but self-defense. If you really go deep into Kung Fu, there are some really freaky moves that you wouldn't believe existed. I'd tell you some but of course not many of you would believe it.
 

UThomas

Senior member
Apr 18, 2000
251
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"To show good faith that your remorse over arrogance in this thread is not false humility would you care to retract the preceeding assertion? I'm not impeaching your skills just your self-perception and lack of respect for a benefactor who's actions helped ensure you'd have an opportunity to develope them."

Nope, I stand by what I said. I already mentioned I respect what he did, and his place in history. Tao of Jeet Kun Do was an amazing book at its time. But that doesn't change the original question. I apologized in advance for what could have been an overly blunt delivery, not the content.

Thomas
 

Chrono

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2001
4,959
0
71
HM!
I believe bruce lee was indeed physically and mentally strong and fast.
He thought logically and reacted quickly upon instinct. This man was not just a man, but a dragon!
:eek:
he pwns me
Jeet Kune Do is a strange conceptual martial art. Wing Chun is alright.

Shaolin Kung Fu 0wns alright.
 

Jejunum

Golden Member
Jun 19, 2000
1,828
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Skoorb - do u do any martial arts? have u ever been in a fight...

the people "prancing around" in taekwondo olympics can kick hard enough to break every bone in your face at an incredible speed....im not saying that they are figthing in a pure sense of the word (they are trying to score point...not kill) but damn ur talking outta ur ass
 

Jejunum

Golden Member
Jun 19, 2000
1,828
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<< And if you think some 50 year old Tai Chi guy could beat them and grab $100k but chooses not to you have not spent much time training in many styles or you believe in fairy tails. >>



i dunno about this...i guess i believe in fairy tales....all the tai chi master's ive studied under were kung fu masters that evolved.... i really do believe in fairy tales i guess


 

Chrono

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2001
4,959
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71
Here's a hint at things though. Jeet Kune Do was a conceptual art that bruce lee was forming from the strengths of multiple martial arts. If he was alive today, he'd probably input well more into his conceptual martial art. Alas, he is not here, and his martial art is nothing but a lost idea.
 

Pundit

Senior member
Feb 28, 2002
634
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<< Here's a hint at things though. Jeet Kune Do was a conceptual art that bruce lee was forming from the strengths of multiple martial arts. If he was alive today, he'd probably input well more into his conceptual martial art. Alas, he is not here, and his martial art is nothing but a lost idea. >>


This is my thinking on the subject as well.

I have not studied any types of martial arts myself, nor have I practiced any. I've seen some of Bruce Lee biographical movies but never accepted them as being completely accurate. From his book "Tao of Jeet Kun Do", I noticed that fitness was of premium importance in his philosophy. He was constantly training throughout his day. I also noticed that he was very much concerned with how much power was generated during a puch/kick (perhaps "force" is a more accurate term) in which mass and velocity are key. His immense speed gave him enormous power at the point of impact. From what I understand, he still holds the record for fastest punch (1/500 sec.). He also researched much in terms of grappling and in-fighting as well, although not many people seem to realize this. In this situation, his lack of body mass may have given the advantage to his opponent, but we'll never know.

I would really like to know if Bruce ever lost a fight. I read an earlier post that someone did, in fact, beat him before his death. Is there a link you can provide?
 

Daniel

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
3,813
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<< Well like I said before if the other guys are only going to play at their own stuff how can they prove it? I remember seeing an olympic tae kwon do match in the last olympics and it was absolutely the most retarded thing ever. Those people weren't fighting, they were prancing around like morons. Watch a professional tae kwon do match and you'll see what an absolute farce that sport is at the competitive level. Take the top tae kwon do guy and watch him smacked into bitch land in UFC. Most martial arts are so incredibly controlled that they are incredibly unlike any real fight. >>



I've seen TKD matches, plenty, and I can tell you they are night and day from anything close to a real fight, TKD is a sport. If you like competitions and such then you might like TKD but trying group all martial arts under a TKD umbrella is like saying you own a geo and it just like a ferrari because there are 4 wheels.



<< As far as Steven Seagul, he is/was the real deal. Although I don't know much about what he is doing nowadays, I had an opportunity to learn from him one afternoon as he was a guest in our Dojo. He was very generous and seemed extremely genuine as well. The fact that he reached 7th Dan in Aikido in Japan, and opened a school there, pretty much speaks for itself. A Westerner able to do that, and prosper, must be quite good at what he does. Most of the complaints I've heard of him regarding his movies, are that he can be a little reckless when it comes to his co-actor's safety. Although I myself would have a hard time believing it because I've worked with him, it's fairly hard to fake some of the more painful moves. In anycase, just my $0.02 =)

-monotony-
>>



Interesting, thanks for posting that, it closely mirrors what I have heard about seagal, actually I have a tape of him doing classes in japan from a long time back, it is very impressive. Seems more like aikijitsu than the aikido that I'm used to seeing, which was a nice change.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,002
103
106


<< I think the best martial arts in the world is San Su Kung Fu. It's what the Seals use. I know this guy that held a black belt in it. For fun, 5 or 6 of us would sneak up behind us and try to attack/pin him down but we would always end up on the floor in defeat. >>

Correction, the SEALs don't "use" any art in particular. The actual martial arts based hand-to-hand training given to all SEALs by the Navy during or after SEAL/BUDs is a crash course in 'mixed-art' fighting, grappling, submission and pain compliance holds (borrowing from kickboxing, American boxing fundamentals, Jujitsu, and Philipino martial arts). Remember, it is the goal of special forces operators NOT to 'mix it up' with an enemy combatant, so special forces members actually don't get much training in this area. So little, that it is common for special forces members to seek additional training on their own time. Navy SEALs receive between 20 and 30 hours of "official" hand-to-hand combative training, depending on time constraints.

<< Here's a hint at things though. Jeet Kune Do was a conceptual art that bruce lee was forming from the strengths of multiple martial arts. If he was alive today, he'd probably input well more into his conceptual martial art. Alas, he is not here, and his martial art is nothing but a lost idea. >>

True, but Lee personally groomed and selected one individual to be the steward of Lee's Jeet Kune Do and carry on Lee's martial arts legacy; the legendary Guru Dan Inosanto. Jeet Kune Do has undergone many evolutions, as Lee would have imagined and wanted it. What is Jeet Kune Do today? Whatever Guru Dan says it is.

<< Well, jeez, that's like comparing a musket with a modern machine gun. Of course the machine gun's going to win. This entire argument is a phallacy, because there are always advancements that invalidate the past. Maybe a better question would be, was Bruce Lee the best fighter of his time? Whether he was or not, he was an impressive fighter >>

Well said. The same debate arises whenever they try to list the "best [whatever] of all time". You have those people who are so simple minded they cannot take a moment to appreciate the talents and achievements of generations gone-by. There is always that element who will see someone from 1964 on a list next to Jordan or some other current player, and they always say "WTF is that guy doing on there? Any current starting NBA player could dunk on that guy at will." Of course they could, that's not the point.

Lee was an phenomenal athlete. Like Jordan at the top of his game, who could do everything a little better than everyone else on the court, a couple things a lot better, Lee was uncommonly fast, agile, and strong.

But, there is little reason to believe that Lee was the "greatest fighter of all time". Lee never fought professionally, or even in sanctioned martial arts competitions, none of us ever saw Lee fight anyone. There is only his rumored legendary reputation gained from dozens of nasty street fights while growing-up in Hong Kong and perhaps a dozen more here in the States. Lee's movies were an impressive demonstration of skill and athleticism, but rehersed and choreographed fight scenes are no indicator of how great a fighter anyone is. Movies are not reality.

Indeed, there is reason to believe that Lee's most famous fight with Wong Jack Man, portrayed as a victory for Lee in the motion picture "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story" (1993; Jason Scott Lee, Lauren Holly), was at best a draw with some feeling Lee had lost ("Bruce Lee's Toughest Fight", Official Karate, July 1980)
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0


<< Didn't Chuck Norris beat him? >>

No. Bruce broke his neck. Oh wait, that was in one of Bruce's movies. Nevermind :p

Anyway, the martial artist that I respect and revere the most is my own teacher, despite Lee's incredible and obvious skill and natural abilities as a fighter.

nik
 

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