Wal-Mart throws hissy-fit and prepares to shut unionized store

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Then I see a perfect need for a new Mexican labor union. wtf does geography have to do with taking advantage of workers?

WTF does geography have to do with workers taking advantage of employers?

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
As it sits now, they are potentially doing as much harm as good in many scenarios -this example from Canada is one such scenario of the Union costing all the workers their jobs.

CsG

Right because no stores will take walmarts place and employ them. What would retailing look like if not for walmart. I'm surprise I even survive considering I haven't set foot in one in 15 years.

Like little mom and pop stores that offer no benefits at all.....

You have no choice in Quebec ...got to pay to play.

Oh, well then *that's* the answer! We'll just make it *illegal* to own a business if you can't afford to pay people more than their skills are worth *and* provide them with full benefits! Why didn't I see it earlier?!

Jason

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
my dads union seems to do quite well for itself. making much more than he did in any of his non-union jobs before.

Which doesn't answer the question, "Does he deserve it?" Once upon a time Unions were great because you could bet that if you hired a UNION worker you were hiring a QUALITY worker who knew his stuff and worked his ass off. Now you get lazy slackers who are just on the lookout for a fat paycheck with minimal effort. Sad that Unions have become so CORRUPT, but there's no denying the truth of it.

Jason

and where do come to this "undeniable conclusion" that union workers are all corrupt?
Get a grip.

Well, I think it is nice of them to offer people who disagree with them concrete shoes for river inspection duty.

Did I say that ALL union workers, unilaterally, are corrupt and shoddy workers? No. However, I I WILL say that the ones who are in Unions representing LOW SKILL workers most certainly ARE corrupt, lazy, incompetent and THEY KNOW IT. That's why they join Unions: To have a body behind them to aid in bilking businesses for more money than their skills are worth. You may think the union employees are the ones who benefit, but in fact it's the Union thugs themselves who benefit most because they milk the businesses and then they milk the employees for "dues" too.

Jason

That's ridiculus. If they went "worth" it business would'nt pay it. Simple as that. No ones holding a gun to thier head. Incidently, much unlike company hired thugs used to do when workers tried to oranize in the past. Many were even shot and killed.

 

[Steeplerot]

Some people enjoy retail. I like selling stuff myself. (I sell upgrades for PC's and build custom rigs) So should retail people be crapped on becasue you think it is unskilled or a "stopgap"?
My money spends just as well as bill gates' money. My family is just as relevant as anyone elses and my taxes do not pay for any shoddier quality military equipment.
I am honest AND work hard. You seem to have this assumption that people just want to "kick back" if you wanted to kick back then soccer may be the proffesion for you I for one earn every penny.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Your stewards need a good talking to. WTF are they thinking then?
That is NOT how things should be run IMO and I can see your frustration.

There are plenty of examples of the engineer is talking about. The california dockworkers are another example. Their union was refusing to allow technology to implemented to increase productivity.

Oh yeah, that was big stuff in the news a couple of years back. Guys making $60,000 a year to make 2-3 DONUT runs in the morning and then take the rest of the day off and other such abuses. I suppose that's what these Union supporters want, though. Nevermind that the same $60,000 could be used to put an HONEST man to work actually PRODUCING goods or supplying SERVICES.

Jason

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
As it sits now, they are potentially doing as much harm as good in many scenarios -this example from Canada is one such scenario of the Union costing all the workers their jobs.

CsG

Right because no stores will take walmarts place and employ them. What would retailing look like if not for walmart. I'm surprise I even survive considering I haven't set foot in one in 15 years.

Like little mom and pop stores that offer no benefits at all.....

You have no choice in Quebec ...got to pay to play.

Oh, well then *that's* the answer! We'll just make it *illegal* to own a business if you can't afford to pay people more than their skills are worth *and* provide them with full benefits! Why didn't I see it earlier?!

Jason

Because you don't mind if the owner makes 90% profit on your labor while you make 10%.

 

[Steeplerot]

That is such bulls1t I know dockworkers who work oakland I am sure their well muscled selves would have a bone to pick with you about that dougnut run crap.
I have no clue where you get this stuff.
That is some seriously dangerous job damn right they get paid.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
my dads union seems to do quite well for itself. making much more than he did in any of his non-union jobs before.

Which doesn't answer the question, "Does he deserve it?" Once upon a time Unions were great because you could bet that if you hired a UNION worker you were hiring a QUALITY worker who knew his stuff and worked his ass off. Now you get lazy slackers who are just on the lookout for a fat paycheck with minimal effort. Sad that Unions have become so CORRUPT, but there's no denying the truth of it.

Jason

and where do come to this "undeniable conclusion" that union workers are all corrupt?
Get a grip.

Well, I think it is nice of them to offer people who disagree with them concrete shoes for river inspection duty.

Did I say that ALL union workers, unilaterally, are corrupt and shoddy workers? No. However, I I WILL say that the ones who are in Unions representing LOW SKILL workers most certainly ARE corrupt, lazy, incompetent and THEY KNOW IT. That's why they join Unions: To have a body behind them to aid in bilking businesses for more money than their skills are worth. You may think the union employees are the ones who benefit, but in fact it's the Union thugs themselves who benefit most because they milk the businesses and then they milk the employees for "dues" too.

Jason

That's ridiculus. If they went "worth" it business would'nt pay it. Simple as that. No ones holding a gun to thier head. Incidently, much unlike company hired thugs used to do when workers tried to oranize in the past. Many were even shot and killed.

True! The unions and some businesses weren't always the nicest to each other. However, your premise that their skills are necessarily worth a lot of money just because they are hired at a ridiculous rate due to Union pressure is simply absurd. If I hold a knife to your throat and demand $20 so I can scan potatos and you comply because you don't want me to kill you, does that make my work worth $20 an hour? NO. Face it: Manual labor isn't worth a lot of money because almost ANYONE can do it. It's simple Supply and Demand.

Jason

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
That is such bulls1t I know dockworkers who work oakland I am sure their well muscled selves would have a bone to pick with you about that dougnut run crap.
I have no clue where you get this stuff.

Yup and they bring home ~140K thanks to the union. More than most inflated college boys do. Besides being able to snap your neck like a twig, guess who has more bargaining power?

 

[Steeplerot]

What anyone is capable of and what people will and suited to do is two diffrent realities.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Some people enjoy retail. I like selling stuff myself. (I sell upgrades for PC's and build custom rigs) So should retail people be crapped on becasue you think it is unskilled or a "stopgap"?
My money spends just as well as bill gates' money. My family is just as relevant as anyone elses and my taxes do not pay for any shoddier quality military equipment.
I am honest AND work hard. You seem to have this assumption that people just want to "kick back" if you wanted to kick back then soccer may be the proffesion for you I for one earn every penny.

I understand *enjoying* a job just fine. Hell, when I worked as a waiter at a Denny's many years ago I ENJOYED the job a whole lot! I had fun interacting with the customers, making people laugh and enjoy their time at the restaurant. But in the end, it jsut wasn't paying the bills and I knew I could do more with my life, so I did. I made the RESPONSIBLE choice, in other words. As it turns out, I also enjoy what I do now (I'm a systems engineer), but I am also looking for something more artistic (and hence, attending college a second time to learn game design).

ENJOYING a job isn't adequate reason to spend your entire life doing it, especially if it doesn't meet your needs.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
As it sits now, they are potentially doing as much harm as good in many scenarios -this example from Canada is one such scenario of the Union costing all the workers their jobs.

CsG

Right because no stores will take walmarts place and employ them. What would retailing look like if not for walmart. I'm surprise I even survive considering I haven't set foot in one in 15 years.

Like little mom and pop stores that offer no benefits at all.....

You have no choice in Quebec ...got to pay to play.

Oh, well then *that's* the answer! We'll just make it *illegal* to own a business if you can't afford to pay people more than their skills are worth *and* provide them with full benefits! Why didn't I see it earlier?!

Jason

Because you don't mind if the owner makes 90% profit on your labor while you make 10%.

Wal Mart doesn't make 90% profit, your point is entirely moot.

Jason

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
That is such bulls1t I know dockworkers who work oakland I am sure their well muscled selves would have a bone to pick with you about that dougnut run crap.
I have no clue where you get this stuff.

Yup and they bring home ~140K thanks to the union. More than most inflated college boys do. Besides being able to snap your neck like a twig, guess who has more bargaining power?

Damn right they BANK. But the sh1t they have to do is downright dangerous. Have you ever worked on a dock alex? Not only that but who knows what is coming in these days with terrorist problems it will be them who save YOUR ass since they get down in the mess of whats coming in daily. Aside from the chemicals rotted stuff and crap that is broken that has to be hauled off-deck by hand.
I am not a small guy but I used to work the Port of SF drydocks and it wore my ass out.
Thats a tough bunch no kidding. Far more grit then any pencil pusher cowboy in the red states i'll tell you.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
That is such bulls1t I know dockworkers who work oakland I am sure their well muscled selves would have a bone to pick with you about that dougnut run crap.
I have no clue where you get this stuff.
That is some seriously dangerous job damn right they get paid.

It's NOT that dangerous of a job, and the donut delivery guy is absolutely true. The dock worker unions also have (or had, dunno if it got resolved or not) a holdover policy from WWII that called for double or triple shifts on site at all times for each position (meaning they'd have 2 or 3 guys for EACH job that needed done at all times). It made sense during the war, it does NOT make sense today. Also, the union pissing because of technology advancements at the docks is total bullsh1t; jobs come and go, technology changes, the times change and today's necessary job may be tomorrow's old-hat. That's called LIFE, and htese union HACKS should grow up and get used to it.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
That is such bulls1t I know dockworkers who work oakland I am sure their well muscled selves would have a bone to pick with you about that dougnut run crap.
I have no clue where you get this stuff.

Yup and they bring home ~140K thanks to the union. More than most inflated college boys do. Besides being able to snap your neck like a twig, guess who has more bargaining power?

THUGS, yes. But don't worry, their day WILL end, technology WILL supplant the majority of them in time. You can't hold back progress forever.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
What anyone is capable of and what people will and suited to do is two diffrent realities.

Hey, if you're CAPABLE of making your life better but instead you choose to sit in sh1t for your whole life, who's fault is that? It's YOURS. You make your bed, YOU sleep in it. Stop trying to justify why it's OK for you to extort or steal from others just because you don't FEEL like reaching upward instead of downward.

Jason

 

[Steeplerot]

Technology will not ever take away a job that changes so drasticlly depending on what is in port.
The lifting yes. But cranes can only do so much.
You obviously know nothing about workers so I am not going to waste my time and listen to you flame them when you know zip.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
my dads union seems to do quite well for itself. making much more than he did in any of his non-union jobs before.

Which doesn't answer the question, "Does he deserve it?" Once upon a time Unions were great because you could bet that if you hired a UNION worker you were hiring a QUALITY worker who knew his stuff and worked his ass off. Now you get lazy slackers who are just on the lookout for a fat paycheck with minimal effort. Sad that Unions have become so CORRUPT, but there's no denying the truth of it.

Jason

and where do come to this "undeniable conclusion" that union workers are all corrupt?
Get a grip.

Well, I think it is nice of them to offer people who disagree with them concrete shoes for river inspection duty.

Did I say that ALL union workers, unilaterally, are corrupt and shoddy workers? No. However, I I WILL say that the ones who are in Unions representing LOW SKILL workers most certainly ARE corrupt, lazy, incompetent and THEY KNOW IT. That's why they join Unions: To have a body behind them to aid in bilking businesses for more money than their skills are worth. You may think the union employees are the ones who benefit, but in fact it's the Union thugs themselves who benefit most because they milk the businesses and then they milk the employees for "dues" too.

Jason

That's ridiculus. If they went "worth" it business would'nt pay it. Simple as that. No ones holding a gun to thier head. Incidently, much unlike company hired thugs used to do when workers tried to oranize in the past. Many were even shot and killed.

True! The unions and some businesses weren't always the nicest to each other. However, your premise that their skills are necessarily worth a lot of money just because they are hired at a ridiculous rate due to Union pressure is simply absurd. If I hold a knife to your throat and demand $20 so I can scan potatos and you comply because you don't want me to kill you, does that make my work worth $20 an hour? NO. Face it: Manual labor isn't worth a lot of money because almost ANYONE can do it. It's simple Supply and Demand.

Jason

Dude every job hire is about bringing pressure to bear. Employers ALWAYS seeks to pay minimum he can. Employees, if they are smart, ALWAYS should seek MAXIMUM they can.

The employee is the weak one here since he needs food on table and there are more workers than jobs. There are various tools at employees disposal to get himself higher wages; organizeing, put limits in place like AMA does with number of doctors that can come into country, make getting a licence hard as in the case of contractors, get a high skillset so it's harder to be replaced..the list goes on..All are coersive if you stop to think about it...but not near as coersive as work or starve.

Face it: Manual labor isn't worth a lot of money because almost ANYONE can do it

Show me, this is the reason "can" and "can't" is'nt in my vocabulary, either do or do not. Many workers choose not to do manual labor which is why they paid so well, as you say, simple supply and demand. I know a "undocumented worker" making ~70K as a union carpenter because not enough native americans are choosing that line of work.. The government is forced to "look the other way" to get any work done out west here. Americans are too good for that work I guess.

 

[OrganizedChaos]

go walmart!!

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
That is such bulls1t I know dockworkers who work oakland I am sure their well muscled selves would have a bone to pick with you about that dougnut run crap.
I have no clue where you get this stuff.
That is some seriously dangerous job damn right they get paid.

It is not doubt that it can be dangerious work, but most of it is not. This was not about how much the cranes could lift, as their capacity was being limited by pencil and paper system for moving containers. The dock wanted to implement wireless barcode scanner to allow the cranes operaters to move more containers in the same period of time.

There are ports around the world with better contrainer transfer rates than this port in question. From what I understand a new port has opened up in oregan or washington because of this strike event. Latest technology all around..

 

[Steeplerot]

And are you sure we could implement this without putting people out of work? If so did they make sure to move familys up north for work?
There is another side to every story.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
And are you sure we could implement this without putting people out of work? If so did they make sure to move familys up north for work?
There is another side to every story.

With the same line of thought, we should still be making buggy whips.

 

[Steeplerot]

You didn't get what I was saying Char, I have no problem with modernizing but they pulled it off wrong.
This is ancient history and I am getting tired of googling for other people today.

 

[Engineer]

Another local example:

Toyota Motor Manufacturing - Georgetown, KY. The factory is about 25 miles from here and I would challenge any unionized factory to produce what these people produce in both quantity and quality. They do work hard, but are rewarded very well.

They may not be as low in price (Camry) as many US cars, but they have a loyal following that keeps them selling better than any other.

Several people from my plant have gotten jobs at Toyota and now make over $100,000 per year (mostly in skilled trade & maintenance). They have a very rewarding system including bonuses for ideas that save money. The union has failed (not even close) every time they've went in there. IMO, the union simply wants the dues from the 8,000 people working there as their working conditions are very good (challenging, but compensated very appropriately).

Oh, and the Kroger union, which I belonged to for the year while I worked there, is a piece of sh!t. Working for minimum wage in the front office (counted $100,000 in cash/checks every day) and still payed union dues. Those already in the system for years benefited pretty good, but the rest of us just paid union dues to work there and receive minimum wage (1991-92)

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
And are you sure we could implement this without putting people out of work? If so did they make sure to move familys up north for work?
There is another side to every story.

With the same line of thought, we should still be making buggy whips.

Might have to if oil runs out as predicted... harnessing the sun is'nt exactly coming quick...also those dock workers you guys don't like, don't need them anymore either since shipping from China won't exacly be cheap.