Wal-Mart throws hissy-fit and prepares to shut unionized store

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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
I do not see why they need it the threat of a union has done the job.
That is a union victory to me even if there is no actual active union in the plant.
A few examples of badly run unions is not going to turn me off to mine which takes exellent care of us and has had my back though.
Sorry yours sucks maybe you should become a steward yourself? You seem like you got your head on straight as far as what your plant needs.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
You didn't get what I was saying Char, I have no problem with modernizing but they pulled it off wrong.
This is ancient history and I am getting tired of googling for other people today.



YOu dont understand what is happening. Technology destroys and creates jobs at the same time. Sure the person at the dock is going to lose his job operating a pencil and notpad, but another job is going to be created with a person operating a handheld scanner, a dba, programmer, network tech to support the containers moving at faster rate.

If ports were just about jobs, we would still be handing carrying goods off ships and not using cranes at all.

You are defeding the position of pencil pusher over other much higher paying jobs.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Believe it or not every ship is different- some things still have to be carried by hand or workers need to be retrained. How else are you going to keep a loyal workforce?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
And are you sure we could implement this without putting people out of work? If so did they make sure to move familys up north for work?
There is another side to every story.



With the same line of thought, we should still be making buggy whips.

Might have to if oil runs out as predicted... harnessing the sun is'nt exactly coming quick...also those dock workers you guys don't like, don't need them anymore either since shipping from China won't exacly be cheap.


Well I was reading today taht the containers cranes require 3MW for peak usage. The latest GE windturbines generate 5MW. Given there is always a nice breeze on the coast, this should be a nice marriage of technology :D

When oil runs out(if it does), I fully expect to see container ships run by pebble bed reactors. Given the surface area of a container ship, solar might work reasonable well too...
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Believe it or not every ship is different- some things still have to be carried by hand or workers need to be retrained. How else are you going to keep a loyal workforce?



most things are moved in 45 foot containers.
 

headbox

Member
Oct 20, 2004
31
0
0
Unions helped people decades ago, but now they are out of control. Why should a cashier at Wal-Mart be in a union when a cashier at McDonald's isn't? Entry level jobs that any teen can do are unionized- why? It's funny when a Union person walks off a job and can be instantly replaced with a kid not even old enough to drive. Unions make more sense for higher demand jobs or those that require years of training, but cashiers and people who stack toilet paper on shelves need to realize they're easily replaced.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
ocean container vessels yes. Not all ships though. And those containers get old and tend to pop in rough seas.
Tech is good for some things but there is always an unknown element that has to be dealt with.
Example what do you do with a half-million gallons of chlorine sitting in the hold of a liner?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
ocean container vessels yes. Not all ships though. And those containers get old and tend to pop in rough seas.
Tech is good for some things but there is always an unknown element that has to be dealt with.
Example what do you do with a half-million gallons of chlorine sitting in the hold of a liner?



As long as it is transported in a safe manner, I dont have an issue with it being transported.
 

ciba

Senior member
Apr 27, 2004
812
0
71
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: ciba
As for what the union has done? The attorney they are working with (a specialist in their industry) has told them they have the worst contract he's ever seen.

Meaning two things:

1. Every union contract this lawyer has ever seen is better than the one at issue.

2. The employees are certainly doing the right hting in this particular case.

It doesn't prove, show, or illustrate anything beyond those two things.

This is one illustration, but has been typical of my experience with unions (where n=3)
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: ciba
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: ciba
As for what the union has done? The attorney they are working with (a specialist in their industry) has told them they have the worst contract he's ever seen.

Meaning two things:

1. Every union contract this lawyer has ever seen is better than the one at issue.

2. The employees are certainly doing the right hting in this particular case.

It doesn't prove, show, or illustrate anything beyond those two things.

This is one illustration, but has been typical of my experience with unions (where n=3)

My experience with unions (n=4):

1. Auto union so militant that every time I was given an assignment they filed a grievance claiming it was 'union work' and should be given to union members as overtime. (summer student, non-union)

2. Public Employees Union whose main concern seemed to be securing large pay increases, despite the fact that this drove the employer to hire most employees on contracts, meaning most employees hired in the last 5 years had earned no seniority, no benefits (pay in lieu) and had no pension contributions (summer student, contract, union). I think this union was too focused on it's oldest members, and hung the newer/younger ones out to dry as a result. I would have opted out of this union, given the choice.

3. Skilled trade union at a pharmaceutical company. Their emphasis was on transparency between employer and employees, working conditions (particularly safety in an industrial setting with biologicals in heavy use on site), and maintaining reasonable workload for employees who mostly work highly technical, potentially dangerous jobs. This was far and away the best union local I have encountered, and was only created when a particular executive tried to unilaterally redefine working conditions leaving workers feeling over-worked and unsafe. (summer student, contract, union).

4. Public employees union so deeply in the pocket of management that they worked to ensure pay raises were regularly deferred, working conditions were less than safe, required training was deferred and ignored, and overtime was frequently unpaid. (lifeguard, union). This was the worst experience; lifeguards are mostly under 20 years of age, work with dangerous chemicals, and are subject to enourmous liabiility. Given the young employees and serious responsibilities of the job (even though most of the time is spent sitting or standing beside a pool, and the average day consists of little more than treating one or two nosebleeds), I think some form of advocacy group (union, assigned manager, something) is a very good idea here. This one was highly ineffective, but certainly didn't cost the employer anything. If I had intended to stay at this job, I believe I would have tried to get into the union leadership to initiate useful change.

 

ciba

Senior member
Apr 27, 2004
812
0
71
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: ciba
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: ciba
As for what the union has done? The attorney they are working with (a specialist in their industry) has told them they have the worst contract he's ever seen.

Meaning two things:

1. Every union contract this lawyer has ever seen is better than the one at issue.

2. The employees are certainly doing the right hting in this particular case.

It doesn't prove, show, or illustrate anything beyond those two things.

This is one illustration, but has been typical of my experience with unions (where n=3)

My experience with unions (n=4):

1. Auto union so militant that every time I was given an assignment they filed a grievance claiming it was 'union work' and should be given to union members as overtime. (summer student, non-union)

2. Public Employees Union whose main concern seemed to be securing large pay increases, despite the fact that this drove the employer to hire most employees on contracts, meaning most employees hired in the last 5 years had earned no seniority, no benefits (pay in lieu) and had no pension contributions (summer student, contract, union). I think this union was too focused on it's oldest members, and hung the newer/younger ones out to dry as a result. I would have opted out of this union, given the choice.

3. Skilled trade union at a pharmaceutical company. Their emphasis was on transparency between employer and employees, working conditions (particularly safety in an industrial setting with biologicals in heavy use on site), and maintaining reasonable workload for employees who mostly work highly technical, potentially dangerous jobs. This was far and away the best union local I have encountered, and was only created when a particular executive tried to unilaterally redefine working conditions leaving workers feeling over-worked and unsafe. (summer student, contract, union).

4. Public employees union so deeply in the pocket of management that they worked to ensure pay raises were regularly deferred, working conditions were less than safe, required training was deferred and ignored, and overtime was frequently unpaid. (lifeguard, union). This was the worst experience; lifeguards are mostly under 20 years of age, work with dangerous chemicals, and are subject to enourmous liabiility. Given the young employees and serious responsibilities of the job (even though most of the time is spent sitting or standing beside a pool, and the average day consists of little more than treating one or two nosebleeds), I think some form of advocacy group (union, assigned manager, something) is a very good idea here. This one was highly ineffective, but certainly didn't cost the employer anything. If I had intended to stay at this job, I believe I would have tried to get into the union leadership to initiate useful change.

It seems that between the two of us, we're one-for-seven.

I would also like to point out that one of the largest unions in my state has argued it has no fiduciary duty to its members. It is openly hostile to any employee who questions its budget and has a closed-book policy. Of course, this is a teacher's union, so it's pretty much par for the course.

edit: I'd like to point out that I have no problem with collective bargaining. My wife will have great representation that is fair for all parties involved once they get the guild up and running. My problem is with traditional unions (teamsters, for example) that exist for the purpose of paying union management.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: ciba
It seems that between the two of us, we're one-for-seven.

I would also like to point out that one of the largest unions in my state has argued it has no fiduciary duty to its members. It is openly hostile to any employee who questions its budget and has a closed-book policy. Of course, this is a teacher's union, so it's pretty much par for the course.

edit: I'd like to point out that I have no problem with collective bargaining. My wife will have great representation that is fair for all parties involved once they get the guild up and running. My problem is with traditional unions (teamsters, for example) that exist for the purpose of paying union management.
There's some very useless unions out there.

I just don't agree that the whole concept of a union is 'bad', which is what some posters seem to feel. My position is that two of the four jobs I worked at had some strong need of a union, but one of those unions was not effective. (In fact, auto-workers have a lot to gain from a union as well given the dangerous nature of a lot of their work). If a teacher's (or any other) union claimed to have no fudiciary duty to it's members, and keeps it's books closed, then at a minimum, its entire management team needs to go.
 

mwtgg

Lifer
Dec 6, 2001
10,491
0
0
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
That is such bulls1t I know dockworkers who work oakland I am sure their well muscled selves would have a bone to pick with you about that dougnut run crap.
I have no clue where you get this stuff.

Yup and they bring home ~140K thanks to the union. More than most inflated college boys do. Besides being able to snap your neck like a twig, guess who has more bargaining power?

Damn right they BANK. But the sh1t they have to do is downright dangerous. Have you ever worked on a dock alex? Not only that but who knows what is coming in these days with terrorist problems it will be them who save YOUR ass since they get down in the mess of whats coming in daily. Aside from the chemicals rotted stuff and crap that is broken that has to be hauled off-deck by hand.
I am not a small guy but I used to work the Port of SF drydocks and it wore my ass out.
Thats a tough bunch no kidding. Far more grit then any pencil pusher cowboy in the red states i'll tell you.

Ass.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Crimson

Concerning being skilled in a couple weeks, I think a couple weeks training would be able to get you through 90% of all situations that a plumber/electrician/carpenter would run into. Sure, you can throw out examples of big buildings or whatever, and obviously that would take more training and experience.. which one would gain over time.. You don't however need 4+ years of school to become any of those trades though.
Your ignorance knows no bounds. To become a Journeyman Carpenter, Electrician, Sheet Metal Worker or Plumber you have to complete 4 years of Apprenticeship School. The main difference between 4 years of College and 4 years of Trade School is that in Trade School your education only concentrates on your trade where as College gives you a well rounded education along with the basics you need for your chosen Occupation. I know I completed both an Apprenticeship Program and got a College Degree.

But, my point is not to rip those trades, they are needed. Its just they are not as important as they think they are. If you listen to Red Dawn, you'd think the world would stop if the Unions went away.
And if they listened to you one would think every Knuckle Head with a bad haircut could be a Journeyman Tradesman in two weeks. That's like saying I could do your job because I was able to pick up on Windows after two weeks of screwing around on a Computer. Both are blatantly false.

The reason their wages would go down if the unions didn't exist would be because the union is artificially inflating the prices of the trade.. And they force companies and workers to join them for fear of retribution if they don't. And don't tell me Unions don't use intimidation to get their way. And don't give me the quality of work bullshit.. If you take away the unions tomorrow, the level of work these 'former' union workers did would not change..
Actually the availability of Skilled Tradesmen would go down. There would be no Apprenticeship Programs and workers would have to learn the trade on the job thus the quality of workmanship would suffer greatly. Why would anyone do such a tough physical job for a paltry sum when they could just become a Cashier, Help Desk Worker some other low paying occupation where it doesn't take as much sweat and knowledge as being a Skilled Tradesman? The odds are as a Tradesman in the Building Industry you eventually will suffer some kind of physical injury, either from an accident of from the wear and tear on your body, the latter which happened to me. Luckily I was a Union Member and they arranged for my rehab and retraining which enabled me to find a new occupation, none of which would have happened if I was a Non Union Worker

Now, my profession, since I am sure people will start asking.. Is a Solaris/Windows/Linux Admin (Yep, all 3, I rock.. ).. I am part of a group of 8 or 9 people in my company that support several hundred Windows, Solaris, and Linux servers. I would even argue my position doesn't take a huge amount of skill, although i did go to school for 4 years.. and it has taken me my whole life of 'training' on my own.. But, I earn exactly what I do solely and completely based on my skill level and what I bring to the company. And I think I get paid quite well. And I also know I get paid over $30,000 more than a co-worker of mine. Why is that? I am a better employee, I know more, I am willing to go above and beyond what is required by my job description. There is no 'maximum' number of hours I work in a week, I work as many as it takes to get the job done. If I am called at 2am I go into work.. If I need to fly to another part of the country on 1 days notice, I do it.. I don't walk off a job site at 5pm because of 'union rules'.. I don't get to take my lunch from 12:00-1:00 every day because of some union rule..
Good for you, My Girlfriend does that same thing though she is Union because she works for a Medical Group and she probably doesn't make as much as you do, then again she probably doesn't have the experience that you do. I can tell you that without her Union they would be working her double shifts constantly (well more than she already does)and weeks at a time without time off due to her job being mission critical because of working at a Hospital where things are a go 7/24.

The difference between what you and her do and a Skilled Tradesman is that a Skilled Tradesman makes his Employer money where as you guys are just glorified Maintenance Workers. Sure you job is important and it takes skill but at the end of the day you aren't putting out a product that can be sold for profit.


In a lot of cases Unions do make for lazy workers.. or at least workers who simply do exactly what they are allowed to do, no more, no less. That doesn't mean there aren't union workers who DON'T work hard and give a crap.. I think they get screwed in the current situation. If they want to quit and go work for themselves, they will probably be 'threatened' in one way or another.. either by direct intimidation, or by intimidating companies not to hire them.
You've been watching too many movies. I know lots of Tradesman who have gone on to be Independent Contractors and the Union didn't even blink an eye.
And intimidation does not just have to include physical type of threats, it can be threats to do disrupt business in other ways.
Obviously you have a problem with Union Solidarity. Unions won't cross picket lines, that's what gives the workers an equal footing with their employers


 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
0
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I would not be part of a union that is tied to the mob Crimson, That was a long time ago and more then just unions had their hands in that corrupt cookie jar back in the day.

The Unions were BORN from that "Corrupt cookie jar". They may not openly assault people and use threat of physical force like they once did (though they haven't abandoned these practices entirely, either, as the Grocery workers strike in California in 2003 showed), but they are far, FAR from being simply "honorable" people looking for their fair shake.

You can say the same about corporations. Since we're not going to eliminate corporations, we need some way to address the imbalance of power between superrich and super-privileged corporations and the average human.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Crimson

Concerning being skilled in a couple weeks, I think a couple weeks training would be able to get you through 90% of all situations that a plumber/electrician/carpenter would run into. Sure, you can throw out examples of big buildings or whatever, and obviously that would take more training and experience.. which one would gain over time.. You don't however need 4+ years of school to become any of those trades though.
Your ignorance knows no bounds. To become a Journeyman Carpenter, Electrician, Sheet Metal Worker or Plumber you have to complete 4 years of Apprenticeship School. The main difference between 4 years of College and 4 years of Trade School is that in Trade School your education only concentrates on your trade where as College gives you a well rounded education along with the basics you need for your chosen Occupation. I know I completed both an Apprenticeship Program and got a College Degree.

But, my point is not to rip those trades, they are needed. Its just they are not as important as they think they are. If you listen to Red Dawn, you'd think the world would stop if the Unions went away.
And if they listened to you one would think every Knuckle Head with a bad haircut could be a Journeyman Tradesman in two weeks. That's like saying I could do your job because I was able to pick up on Windows after two weeks of screwing around on a Computer. Both are blatantly false.

The reason their wages would go down if the unions didn't exist would be because the union is artificially inflating the prices of the trade.. And they force companies and workers to join them for fear of retribution if they don't. And don't tell me Unions don't use intimidation to get their way. And don't give me the quality of work bullshit.. If you take away the unions tomorrow, the level of work these 'former' union workers did would not change..
Actually the availability of Skilled Tradesmen would go down. There would be no Apprenticeship Programs and workers would have to learn the trade on the job thus the quality of workmanship would suffer greatly. Why would anyone do such a tough physical job for a paltry sum when they could just become a Cashier, Help Desk Worker some other low paying occupation where it doesn't take as much sweat and knowledge as being a Skilled Tradesman? The odds are as a Tradesman in the Building Industry you eventually will suffer some kind of physical injury, either from an accident of from the wear and tear on your body, the latter which happened to me. Luckily I was a Union Member and they arranged for my rehab and retraining which enabled me to find a new occupation, none of which would have happened if I was a Non Union Worker

Now, my profession, since I am sure people will start asking.. Is a Solaris/Windows/Linux Admin (Yep, all 3, I rock.. ).. I am part of a group of 8 or 9 people in my company that support several hundred Windows, Solaris, and Linux servers. I would even argue my position doesn't take a huge amount of skill, although i did go to school for 4 years.. and it has taken me my whole life of 'training' on my own.. But, I earn exactly what I do solely and completely based on my skill level and what I bring to the company. And I think I get paid quite well. And I also know I get paid over $30,000 more than a co-worker of mine. Why is that? I am a better employee, I know more, I am willing to go above and beyond what is required by my job description. There is no 'maximum' number of hours I work in a week, I work as many as it takes to get the job done. If I am called at 2am I go into work.. If I need to fly to another part of the country on 1 days notice, I do it.. I don't walk off a job site at 5pm because of 'union rules'.. I don't get to take my lunch from 12:00-1:00 every day because of some union rule..
Good for you, My Girlfriend does that same thing though she is Union because she works for a Medical Group and she probably doesn't make as much as you do, then again she probably doesn't have the experience that you do. I can tell you that without her Union they would be working her double shifts constantly (well more than she already does)and weeks at a time without time off due to her job being mission critical because of working at a Hospital where things are a go 7/24.

The difference between what you and her do and a Skilled Tradesman is that a Skilled Tradesman makes his Employer money where as you guys are just glorified Maintenance Workers. Sure you job is important and it takes skill but at the end of the day you aren't putting out a product that can be sold for profit.


In a lot of cases Unions do make for lazy workers.. or at least workers who simply do exactly what they are allowed to do, no more, no less. That doesn't mean there aren't union workers who DON'T work hard and give a crap.. I think they get screwed in the current situation. If they want to quit and go work for themselves, they will probably be 'threatened' in one way or another.. either by direct intimidation, or by intimidating companies not to hire them.
You've been watching too many movies. I know lots of Tradesman who have gone on to be Independent Contractors and the Union didn't even blink an eye.
And intimidation does not just have to include physical type of threats, it can be threats to do disrupt business in other ways.
Obviously you have a problem with Union Solidarity. Unions won't cross picket lines, that's what gives the workers an equal footing with their employers

Who said Apprenticeship/certification programs wouldn't still exist if Unions went away? :roll:

Ever heard of "salting" Red? Yep, it still happens all the time. Now tell me that practice is totally above board.

CsG
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Who said Apprenticeship/certification programs wouldn't still exist if Unions went away? :roll:
Show me an Apprenticeship Program for the Building Trades that isn't backed or implemented by the Unions!

Ever heard of "salting" Red? Yep, it still happens all the time. Now tell me that practice is totally above board.

CsG
Never heard of it
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
The difference between what you and her do and a Skilled Tradesman is that a Skilled Tradesman makes his Employer money where as you guys are just glorified Maintenance Workers. Sure you job is important and it takes skill but at the end of the day you aren't putting out a product that can be sold for profit.

IT workers product is productivity, which means reduced labor cost. Some IT folks save companies more money than skilled laborer could every produce in product. They also allow companies to expand and produce more. You are very shortsite about the effects IT people in the workforce.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,376
5,337
146
Yes CAD, tell us about "salting". you brought it up, and I am curious to hear about it.
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
1,544
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
The difference between what you and her do and a Skilled Tradesman is that a Skilled Tradesman makes his Employer money where as you guys are just glorified Maintenance Workers. Sure you job is important and it takes skill but at the end of the day you aren't putting out a product that can be sold for profit.

IT workers product is productivity, which means reduced labor cost. Some IT folks save companies more money than skilled laborer could every produce in product. They also allow companies to expand and produce more. You are very shortsite about the effects IT people in the workforce.

You are speaking of GOOD IT workers which in my experience is somewhat limited. Not to argue against Unions too much (as sometimes I think they are good) but the Unionized IT guys at my work can be pretty useless. I know as much or more about IT as they do and I find a lot of these guys just don't know what the hell they are doing. Now there are definitely some IT guys that know what they are doing - but they don't last in IT long as they find a more lucrative job (unless the particular employer pays very well, which is known to happen).
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Who said Apprenticeship/certification programs wouldn't still exist if Unions went away? :roll:
Show me an Apprenticeship Program for the Building Trades that isn't backed or implemented by the Unions!
And you really think they'd just go away? Pffttt Just because the Unions try to control the App programs now doesn't mean the programs would go away without the Unions. Infact when I was looking into the Electrical App program years ago it was through a non-union shop and a local comm. college.
Ever heard of "salting" Red? Yep, it still happens all the time. Now tell me that practice is totally above board.

CsG
Never heard of it

Yeah, union members(and apologists) have a habbit of suddenly not remembering or not knowing about "salting" when it is brought up...
Union Salting Objectives and Methods

CsG
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: charrison
The difference between what you and her do and a Skilled Tradesman is that a Skilled Tradesman makes his Employer money where as you guys are just glorified Maintenance Workers. Sure you job is important and it takes skill but at the end of the day you aren't putting out a product that can be sold for profit.

IT workers product is productivity, which means reduced labor cost. Some IT folks save companies more money than skilled laborer could every produce in product. They also allow companies to expand and produce more. You are very shortsite about the effects IT people in the workforce.

You are speaking of GOOD IT workers which in my experience is somewhat limited. Not to argue against Unions too much (as sometimes I think they are good) but the Unionized IT guys at my work can be pretty useless. I know as much or more about IT as they do and I find a lot of these guys just don't know what the hell they are doing. Now there are definitely some IT guys that know what they are doing - but they don't last in IT long as they find a more lucrative job (unless the particular employer pays very well, which is known to happen).



I have never meet a union IT guy, the ones I know are fairly good at what they do. I have no doubt ran across useless ones in my time.
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
1,544
0
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Who said Apprenticeship/certification programs wouldn't still exist if Unions went away? :roll:
Show me an Apprenticeship Program for the Building Trades that isn't backed or implemented by the Unions!
And you really think they'd just go away? Pffttt Just because the Unions try to control the App programs now doesn't mean the programs would go away without the Unions. Infact when I was looking into the Electrical App program years ago it was through a non-union shop and a local comm. college.
Ever heard of "salting" Red? Yep, it still happens all the time. Now tell me that practice is totally above board.

CsG
Never heard of it

Yeah, union members(and apologists) have a habbit of suddenly not remembering or not knowing about "salting" when it is brought up...
Union Salting Objectives and Methods

CsG

yes - unfortunately like other areas of business - a "thugism" MO isn't unheard of. I don't think this is a problem with all Unions and it also not unheard of to use similar tactics in return to break up unions. Since one can't really expect an organization or business to have "morals" you have to be prepared for them to do whatever it takes to reach their goals.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: charrison
The difference between what you and her do and a Skilled Tradesman is that a Skilled Tradesman makes his Employer money where as you guys are just glorified Maintenance Workers. Sure you job is important and it takes skill but at the end of the day you aren't putting out a product that can be sold for profit.

IT workers product is productivity, which means reduced labor cost. Some IT folks save companies more money than skilled laborer could every produce in product. They also allow companies to expand and produce more. You are very shortsite about the effects IT people in the workforce.
I apologize if my comments seemed to trivialize the importance of the IT worker. I assure you that wasn't my intent (having worked in IT myself I know that it's an important sector of the workforce.) That said, it's no more important than the building trades.