Wal-Mart throws hissy-fit and prepares to shut unionized store

[glenn1]

I have read this entire thread and as usual not one post gives any possible reason why unions are bad.

I for one haven't said unions are bad, I just find it hard to justify a union for an employees of this skill level. I'm not questioning unions as an institution, I'm questioning the utility of a union in this setting. Since the main weapon a union has is the strike (withholding their labor), I can see where a union for skilled building trades makes sense, but for door greeters and clerks at WalMart? How much of a threat is a strike when the workers possess skill sets that can be replaced by anyone with an IQ higher than 50 and about 30 seconds training?

Right to mooch laws should all be abolished. Restricting workers's freedoms is never good imo.

I fail to see how allowing someone the freedom NOT to join a union if they choose constitutes "restricting workers' freedoms." Care to elaborate?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Big deal, most of them probably were looking for a sh!tty job before they got a sh!tty job at Wally World. Damn them for trying to make their jobs better.

As for what Cad says about Unions enabling sh!t employess to keep their jobs, I was a member of the Carpenters Union and I know that if the employee wasn't worth a sh!t there was nothing the Union could or would do to force the contractor to keep him. In fact I've seen many cases were a Foreman just didn't like the employee and had him fired and the Union didn't interefere. Of course they'd find the guy another job but if the Contractor that was hiring had bad history with bthat guy they wouldn't be forced to hire him.

Of course Unions for highly skilled Labor have an advantage over Unions for non skilled labor as it's not as easy to replace a worker with highly sought after skills with some uneducated unskilled monkey.

Don't mind them.

It''s my observation people that don't like unions are just jealous they have jobs with no bargaining position, usually doing scut-work themselves. Envious, they are over-the-barrel, could be fired with no recourse at the drop of the hat or replaced easily by one of 2 billion indianese in waiting..

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: glenn1

I have read this entire thread and as usual not one post gives any possible reason why unions are bad.

I for one haven't said unions are bad, I just find it hard to justify a union for an employees of this skill level. I'm not questioning unions as an institution, I'm questioning the utility of a union in this setting. Since the main weapon a union has is the strike (withholding their labor), I can see where a union for skilled building trades makes sense, but for door greeters and clerks at WalMart? How much of a threat is a strike when the workers possess skill sets that can be replaced by anyone with an IQ higher than 50 and about 30 seconds training?

Right to mooch laws should all be abolished. Restricting workers's freedoms is never good imo.

I fail to see how allowing someone the freedom NOT to join a union if they choose constitutes "restricting workers' freedoms." Care to elaborate?

A union is not there just for a skillset they form when workers are not being taken care of
and they are fed up. We all know wallyworld is not the best employer for someone over the age of 16. I can see the need for full-time employment instead of making everyone part-time to cheese out on the benefits etc. when there are familys to feed.

 

[Crimson]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: broon

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Sets wages and benefits, makes sure that working conditions are safe,ensures that employees aren't taken advantage of (like working more than 40 hours). They also are able to get better Healthcare packages by using their shear numbers to get good rates and they invest the Retirement funds to ensure that they get good returns enabling the Union Member to have a decent retirement.

The employer should set the wages. Again, hard work will drive competetive wages. OSHA should be ensuring safe working conditions. Dept of Labor should enforce things like hours worked and OT. If a company doesn't want to offer health ensurance or retirement, the employee should take that into consideration before accepting the job. The employee should take the initiative to start their own IRA and consider the cost of supplying their own insurance.

So of the things you listed, MAYBE the insurance is the only thing the union does that helps the worker.

The Employer could always go non Union if they want. Of course the quality of workmanship would fall drastically if they did because the vast majority of Skilled Tradesmen are Union or are Contractors themselves and most Building Developers insist on Union workers because they know the quality of work would be much higher than non Union Shops.

There are right to Work States where Contractors employ both Union and Non Union Employees. Of course the Non Union Employees enjoy the same wages but don't get the same Benefit packages. I have a friend who works for a shop like that as a Sheet-metal Worker. He makes $42.50 an Hour (the same as the Union Employees) but would like to go Union so he could also get the additional $15+ an hour in Bennies. Of course because he is not Union he doesn't have to pay the $30.00 a month dues which in my opinion is a paltry amount when you consider the upside of belonging to the Union. However he really doesn't have a choice because his employer doesn't have to keep him if he decides to go Union being that Mass is a Right to Work State.

:roll: Union workers ALWAYS think their quality of work is higher than non-union workers... Which is part of the problem. You got a bunch of overpaid, underworked, overprotected people. A friend of mine is a non-union electrician.. he is one of the hardest working people I know, and makes a ton of money because many jobs are sick and entired of the union mentality.

If you were as good as you say you are (Not just you, all union workers) they would be able to get paid the same amount as without the union. You need to get off your high horse. Honestly.. carpentry, plumbing, and those types of 'skilled' jobs I consider more of 'trained' jobs.. They aren't that difficult for 99% of the things they do.. it can easily be taught to just about anyone. Whats difficult about plumbing? Slapping PVC together? Soldering copper pipes? Its simple these days.

(Will leave now that I have pissed off all the 'skilled' laborers at Anandtech).

 

[Crimson]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: broon

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
To keep your job. In the Building Industry you work on a Jobsite until it is done. When the company moves to another Job they take along those who they believe are good skilled tradesmen who make them money. The others have to go back to the Union Hall or seek out other jobs themselves. The Contractor/Company is under no obligation to keep the Employees from the previous job... at least with the Carpenters Union. The Higher Skilled Tradesmen like Plumbers, Electricians and Sheetmetal Workers usually have a shop but they also don't employ as many people so they have a core that they keep and if some employee is not cutting it they are let go.

So what does the union do that benefits the carpenter?

Sets wages and benefits, makes sure that working conditions are safe,ensures that employees aren't taken advantage of (like working more than 40 hours). They also are able to get better Healthcare packages by using their shear numbers to get good rates and they invest the Retirement funds to ensure that they get good returns enabling the Union Member to have a decent retirement.

How do non-union workers accomplish all of those things?

 

[Steeplerot]

Plumbing is a very complicated job before you spout off about something you know nothing about try thinking.
I want to see you fix a pipe from a toilet on the 12 story without fully understanding how gravity works when it comes to vacuums inside pipes.
I am sure the non-skilled uneducated type would find himself covered in sh1t if he does not understand where pressure is in which section of pipe.
Every house/building is diffrent and each problem is possibly hidden behind your clients walls.
It takes a lifetime of experience to not screw up a complicated job and to make sure your seals are good and work hand in hand with all the other sections of the buildings plumbing.
Plumbing is a exellent example of a misunderstood trade.

 

[Crimson]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Big deal, most of them probably were looking for a sh!tty job before they got a sh!tty job at Wally World. Damn them for trying to make their jobs better.

As for what Cad says about Unions enabling sh!t employess to keep their jobs, I was a member of the Carpenters Union and I know that if the employee wasn't worth a sh!t there was nothing the Union could or would do to force the contractor to keep him. In fact I've seen many cases were a Foreman just didn't like the employee and had him fired and the Union didn't interefere. Of course they'd find the guy another job but if the Contractor that was hiring had bad history with bthat guy they wouldn't be forced to hire him.

Of course Unions for highly skilled Labor have an advantage over Unions for non skilled labor as it's not as easy to replace a worker with highly sought after skills with some uneducated unskilled monkey.

Don't mind them.

It''s my observation people that don't like unions are just jealous they have jobs with no bargaining position, usually doing scut-work themselves. Envious, they are over-the-barrel, could be fired with no recourse at the drop of the hat or replaced easily by one of 2 billion indianese in waiting..

LOL.. I think union workers are envious that they lack the skills to truly make themselves valuable enough to get paid what they do without the protection of a union. They are jealous tha they have to use the union to bargain for them as a whole, and the person next to them who is a crappy worker is making the same amount. They are jealous that without their union protection 5 billion people could easily take over their job with a couple weeks of training.

 

[Steeplerot]

Crimson you are talking out of your ass a temp-employee will not give you a quality job.
(see above plumbing example of your ignorance.)
You are not going to be skilled in a trade in a couple of weeks, if you think this you are obviously a superman jack of all trades or never worked a job more difficult then burger-flipping in your life.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: broon

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Sets wages and benefits, makes sure that working conditions are safe,ensures that employees aren't taken advantage of (like working more than 40 hours). They also are able to get better Healthcare packages by using their shear numbers to get good rates and they invest the Retirement funds to ensure that they get good returns enabling the Union Member to have a decent retirement.

The employer should set the wages. Again, hard work will drive competetive wages. OSHA should be ensuring safe working conditions. Dept of Labor should enforce things like hours worked and OT. If a company doesn't want to offer health ensurance or retirement, the employee should take that into consideration before accepting the job. The employee should take the initiative to start their own IRA and consider the cost of supplying their own insurance.

So of the things you listed, MAYBE the insurance is the only thing the union does that helps the worker.

The Employer could always go non Union if they want. Of course the quality of workmanship would fall drastically if they did because the vast majority of Skilled Tradesmen are Union or are Contractors themselves and most Building Developers insist on Union workers because they know the quality of work would be much higher than non Union Shops.

There are right to Work States where Contractors employ both Union and Non Union Employees. Of course the Non Union Employees enjoy the same wages but don't get the same Benefit packages. I have a friend who works for a shop like that as a Sheet-metal Worker. He makes $42.50 an Hour (the same as the Union Employees) but would like to go Union so he could also get the additional $15+ an hour in Bennies. Of course because he is not Union he doesn't have to pay the $30.00 a month dues which in my opinion is a paltry amount when you consider the upside of belonging to the Union. However he really doesn't have a choice because his employer doesn't have to keep him if he decides to go Union being that Mass is a Right to Work State.

:roll: Union workers ALWAYS think their quality of work is higher than non-union workers... Which is part of the problem. You got a bunch of overpaid, underworked, overprotected people. A friend of mine is a non-union electrician.. he is one of the hardest working people I know, and makes a ton of money because many jobs are sick and entired of the union mentality.

If you were as good as you say you are (Not just you, all union workers) they would be able to get paid the same amount as without the union. You need to get off your high horse. Honestly.. carpentry, plumbing, and those types of 'skilled' jobs I consider more of 'trained' jobs.. They aren't that difficult for 99% of the things they do.. it can easily be taught to just about anyone. Whats difficult about plumbing? Slapping PVC together? Soldering copper pipes? Its simple these days.

(Will leave now that I have pissed off all the 'skilled' laborers at Anandtech).

Oh ya everyones elses job is so easy.. you sound like typical bitter employee, always worried about the "other guy". Look People get paid what they are worth, always. Not everyone want to deal with Sh1t everyday as a plumber, going to different jobs sites as a capenter, dealing with burns, walking 20 miles a day and corned toes like I had to as a culinary banquet sever.. thus we get/got PAID in spades.

As for your buddy, he makes what he does because UNION's set the bar. sure he can underbid and get lots of work that way but he has unions to thank. Free market is such a wonderful thing.. when UNION's get too crazy guys like your freind (and my brother who owns a 50/50 pluming co) come in and keep them in check.

 

[Steeplerot]

I want to see crimson fix his plumbing if he can learn it like some burger flipping job. hehe
I am sure he would be eating more then crow. :laugh:
Leave the actual work to the skilled people Crimson and we'll keep our union too.
BTW I SAID I want my pickles on the side non-union boi.
Get flipping or I'll tell your boss you suck and you can get your ass canned so you can go home and spout more BS you know nothing about on AT all day.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Zebo
As for your buddy, he makes what he does because UNION's set the bar. sure he can underbid and get lots of work that way but he has unions to thank. Free market is such a wonderful thing.. when UNION's get too crazy guys like your freind (and my brother who owns a 50/50 pluming co) come in and keep them in check.

The Plumbers he's talking about just like his Electrician friend are not out on large Job Sites dealing with Building Contractors so thgere is no need for them to be Unionized. More than likely they are Contractors and have set fees for the work they do.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Big deal, most of them probably were looking for a sh!tty job before they got a sh!tty job at Wally World. Damn them for trying to make their jobs better.

As for what Cad says about Unions enabling sh!t employess to keep their jobs, I was a member of the Carpenters Union and I know that if the employee wasn't worth a sh!t there was nothing the Union could or would do to force the contractor to keep him. In fact I've seen many cases were a Foreman just didn't like the employee and had him fired and the Union didn't interefere. Of course they'd find the guy another job but if the Contractor that was hiring had bad history with bthat guy they wouldn't be forced to hire him.

Of course Unions for highly skilled Labor have an advantage over Unions for non skilled labor as it's not as easy to replace a worker with highly sought after skills with some uneducated unskilled monkey.

Don't mind them.

It''s my observation people that don't like unions are just jealous they have jobs with no bargaining position, usually doing scut-work themselves. Envious, they are over-the-barrel, could be fired with no recourse at the drop of the hat or replaced easily by one of 2 billion indianese in waiting..

LOL.. I think union workers are envious that they lack the skills to truly make themselves valuable enough to get paid what they do without the protection of a union. They are jealous tha they have to use the union to bargain for them as a whole, and the person next to them who is a crappy worker is making the same amount. They are jealous that without their union protection 5 billion people could easily take over their job with a couple weeks of training.

You're a GD fool. You think cops have no skill? Heavy epuipment operators? Painters? To do it right and worth paying you need lots of skill which is why they get paid. Besides, not everyone wants to be a cop, bulldozer operator or inhale toxic fumes which also changes the market dynamic, or supply/demand matrix. Many more people want to fluff it, get an accounting degree and sit in A/C office all day.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Big deal, most of them probably were looking for a sh!tty job before they got a sh!tty job at Wally World. Damn them for trying to make their jobs better.

As for what Cad says about Unions enabling sh!t employess to keep their jobs, I was a member of the Carpenters Union and I know that if the employee wasn't worth a sh!t there was nothing the Union could or would do to force the contractor to keep him. In fact I've seen many cases were a Foreman just didn't like the employee and had him fired and the Union didn't interefere. Of course they'd find the guy another job but if the Contractor that was hiring had bad history with bthat guy they wouldn't be forced to hire him.

Of course Unions for highly skilled Labor have an advantage over Unions for non skilled labor as it's not as easy to replace a worker with highly sought after skills with some uneducated unskilled monkey.

Don't mind them.

It''s my observation people that don't like unions are just jealous they have jobs with no bargaining position, usually doing scut-work themselves. Envious, they are over-the-barrel, could be fired with no recourse at the drop of the hat or replaced easily by one of 2 billion indianese in waiting..

LOL.. I think union workers are envious that they lack the skills to truly make themselves valuable enough to get paid what they do without the protection of a union. They are jealous tha they have to use the union to bargain for them as a whole, and the person next to them who is a crappy worker is making the same amount. They are jealous that without their union protection 5 billion people could easily take over their job with a couple weeks of training.

You're a GD fool. You think cops have no skill? Heavy epuipment operators? Painters? To do it right and worth paying you need lots of skill which is why they get paid. Besides, not everyone wants to be a cop, bulldozer operator or inhale toxic fumes which also changes the market dynamic, or supply/demand matrix. Many more people want to fluff it, get an accounting degree and sit in A/C office all day.

He doesn't have a clue what he is talking about and it really doesn't matter to him. He's just posting in this thread for one reason and one reason only

Originally posted by: Crimson

Will leave now that I have pissed off all the 'skilled' laborers at Anandtech

That's his MO here at AT, to post sh!t that causes flames and nothing else.

BTW, how many times is he going to post that he's leaving only to come back and troll some more?

 

[Zebo]

I think union workers are envious that they lack the skills to truly make themselves valuable enough to get paid what they do without the protection of a union. They are jealous tha they have to use the union to bargain for them as a whole, and the person next to them who is a crappy worker is making the same amount

Ya I'm sure Payton Manning, Shaq's, etc really jealous of thier non-union friends. Bottom line is you either have a job than can be unionized, thus much more power for it's employee members or you don't and you're stuck negotiating your fee/benefits alone with less power. But both sides seek the same. Mo money.

 

[Zebo]

BTW, how many times is he going to post that he's leaving only to come back and troll some more?

I wish he'd come over and troll my sewer line I broke. See,I thunk like Mr. Crimson, Had a clog but the "overpaid unskilled underworked" plumber wanted $110 hour to snake mains and said it would be about 3hours totaling out at $330. So me, thinking any monkey could do it, rented a snake from homeDepot for $38 and went clear though the line busting it at a juction. Now Plumber says $3,800 to fix. Has too jack hammer slab etc. hehe. I "showed" him huh.

PS I have an MS in engineering but too dumb to pay $330 to do it right, now paying $3,838 and two weeks of eating out because kichen is torn up.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: irwincur
unions vs. Wal-Mart

Hate em both.

Perhaps this will lead to a war which will destroy both of them, and human kind can once again be free from overpaid trash and dirty sh*thole stores full of overpaid trash.

Well, that's exactly what happened. The walmart is gone, and the union is out of jobs. 😉
I think this may just be the way to get rid of Walmart. 😀

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: broon
Unions had a place in this country, but not anymore. Now large companies have an HR department that ensures conditions are suitable for workers. In Red Dawn's example, the union is worthless.

How are they worthless, because some of them don't force an employer to keep and crappy worker? The Pay Scale and Benifits Packages for Skilled Labor Union Members enables them to have a quality life, good Medical Benefits and a decent retirement. WTF is wrong with that?

Because it's not Uniquely American 🙂 Haven't you heard, one job with quality life and good benefits and retirement is not the American way. American way is three jobs, no benefits, no retirement aside from stock market.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: broon
Unions had a place in this country, but not anymore. Now large companies have an HR department that ensures conditions are suitable for workers. In Red Dawn's example, the union is worthless.

How are they worthless, because some of them don't force an employer to keep and crappy worker? The Pay Scale and Benifits Packages for Skilled Labor Union Members enables them to have a quality life, good Medical Benefits and a decent retirement. WTF is wrong with that?

Because it's not Uniquely American 🙂 Haven't you heard, one job with quality life and good benefits and retirement is not the American way. American way is three jobs, no benefits, no retirement aside from stock market.

One important point these union haters miss is all the businesses they suppport with thier high wages spending the money here, at resturants, car dealers, nice homes etc which improves the community and our economy. How many busineses does a minimum wage worker at walmart support? None. Conservatives even admit it, saying tax cuts, meaning more money in your pocket gives you more to spend. Policies that put money in people's pocket stimulate the economy. Demand drives the economy, not supply. Why would you invest in greater production capacity if no one is out there with money to spend? Unions is just another mechanism to recirculate money to the workforce. This is classic Keynes.

 

[Steeplerot]

but, but, if you let the oh so deserving CEO have all the extra profit he will make MORE mc jobs for all of us
(Yeah right more like someone goes out and buys that new BMW that the almighty capitalism owes him and he is so well deserving of.) :roll:

 

[Mokmo418]

About the area near that store
Most of the population in concentrated around the town of Saguenay, which Jonquiere is one area (has lots of major aluminium mills)

(EDIT: Population loses about a busload of people a week that never come back, mostly because of lack of employment, unionized workers are getting everything, nothing loeft for the new guys)

Lately the most important closings have been places like paper mills (Port-Alfred, few miles away) and an older aluminium mill.
In the first case, it was closed because the company needed to cut down costs, so they shut down the less efficient mill.
Second case, the union had refused to let the company modernise the mill... Luckily for (most of) them, they were relocated to another mill.

I can tell you abot another paper mill in Quebec that had its gvt-payed modernisation works going three times over cost because of union wars (main one had problems seeing workers from other major unions on the same area)
Quebec is the most taxed, unionized, socialist province in north america. ONLY PROVINCE THAT HAS MINIMAL FUEL PRICE!!!

 

[Steeplerot]

There is probaly another side to it then just "the union had refused to let the company modernise the mill" There always is.
It makes no sense and sounds like a gloss-over by union busting types.
Which union represents the mill? maybe they have something on the net about it if I investigate further?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
but, but, if you let the oh so deserving CEO have all the extra profit he will make MORE mc jobs for all of us
(Yeah right more like someone goes out and buys that new BMW that the almighty capitalism owes him and he is so well deserving of.) :roll:

Why would they create jobs for us if no ones has money to spend? I don't see people dying to open a Red Lobster franchise in Bogata. Need high wages too. I.E. demand. Only catering to a few dozen billionaires is'nt enough, and franky most of that group got they way by being extremly frugal, you're not going to get rich off them, but the high wage worker who needs a brand new suburban and eats out..

Besides I can think of plenty of investiments those CEO's and wealthy barrens can invest besides new businesses or job creation. Foreign exchange, government bonds, short selling, real estate etc...

 

[Steeplerot]

How much do they actually invest or do they just stash the money in an attempt to get richer on the backs of his workers.
Call me jaded but every job I have had non-union the boss is stashing the cash as fast as he can while half assing conditions beyond keeping in business.
This is just from my experience but these people are out for $ and nothing else, who could blame them?
This is why having your union watchnig your back is a good thing.
Capitalism is not the answer to everything we humans have a greedy nature.
Cooperation is strength and the strength of the unions build and keeps our country in good shape, workers health and standard of living. (sorry for fragmentary sentences I am doing a few things at once right now.)

 

[Zebo]

Capitalism is not the answer to everything we humans have a greedy nature.

If we had pure capitalism it would work fine. But since the government government plays such a huge role in the private economy it needs controls. By issuing patents, drilling rights, logging rights, Property and Contract Rights etc etc etc the government is the granter of fortune .. All the fortunes have been made in this country are thanks to public sector infrastructure.

The government also says I can no longer "live off the earth", choose some land, chop some trees, plug a cabin anywhere, plant seeds, watch them grow... I need money to buy things to live.

This societal "feature" is also why if jobs don't pay enough for the basics there is no "original distribution" of your labors and you're under private tyranny. Socailist things seek to remedy this. Unions, minimum wage, etc Or should our government only provide infrastructure and services that benefit our wealthy elites? That's what they think. Government infrastructure and services are for them, not you.

 

[Steeplerot]

I am no utopian planner so I will leave this one to you. I just call it the way I have experienced it.
A college degree and/or a union is a advantage to good employment.
People here slagging it off with no basis other then rumors about union corruption make me ill though.
The misinformation and the baseless attacks about something they know nothing of for a partisan agenda is becoming far to prevelant in what I considered once a informed country.