Wal-Mart throws hissy-fit and prepares to shut unionized store

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Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
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Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Big deal, most of them probably were looking for a sh!tty job before they got a sh!tty job at Wally World. Damn them for trying to make their jobs better.

As for what Cad says about Unions enabling sh!t employess to keep their jobs, I was a member of the Carpenters Union and I know that if the employee wasn't worth a sh!t there was nothing the Union could or would do to force the contractor to keep him. In fact I've seen many cases were a Foreman just didn't like the employee and had him fired and the Union didn't interefere. Of course they'd find the guy another job but if the Contractor that was hiring had bad history with bthat guy they wouldn't be forced to hire him.

Of course Unions for highly skilled Labor have an advantage over Unions for non skilled labor as it's not as easy to replace a worker with highly sought after skills with some uneducated unskilled monkey.

Don't mind them.

It''s my observation people that don't like unions are just jealous they have jobs with no bargaining position, usually doing scut-work themselves. Envious, they are over-the-barrel, could be fired with no recourse at the drop of the hat or replaced easily by one of 2 billion indianese in waiting..

LOL.. I think union workers are envious that they lack the skills to truly make themselves valuable enough to get paid what they do without the protection of a union. They are jealous tha they have to use the union to bargain for them as a whole, and the person next to them who is a crappy worker is making the same amount. They are jealous that without their union protection 5 billion people could easily take over their job with a couple weeks of training.

You're a GD fool. You think cops have no skill? Heavy epuipment operators? Painters? To do it right and worth paying you need lots of skill which is why they get paid. Besides, not everyone wants to be a cop, bulldozer operator or inhale toxic fumes which also changes the market dynamic, or supply/demand matrix. Many more people want to fluff it, get an accounting degree and sit in A/C office all day.

I don't believe I said anything about cops, heavy equipment operators, or painters.. so I am not sure what your point is.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
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I don't believe you have any clue as to who all are in a union then.
I dare you to tell a cop or a fireperson being in his union makes him a lazy overpaid worker.
Here's a :cookie: try harder next time by maybe having a vauge clue at who you diss.
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Plumbing is a very complicated job before you spout off about something you know nothing about try thinking.
I want to see you fix a pipe from a toilet on the 12 story without fully understanding how gravity works when it comes to vacuums inside pipes.
I am sure the non-skilled uneducated type would find himself covered in sh1t if he does not understand where pressure is in which section of pipe.
Every house/building is diffrent and each problem is possibly hidden behind your clients walls.
It takes a lifetime of experience to not screw up a complicated job and to make sure your seals are good and work hand in hand with all the other sections of the buildings plumbing.
Plumbing is a exellent example of a misunderstood trade.

I'm sure a couple weeks of training could teach me what I need to know.. I'm not saying it doesn't take ANY skill, I'm saying it ain't rocket science by any means. And if you think I have no experience with it, my father was (he's dead now) an electrician. He taught me a lot of what he knew when I was a little child.. it was not difficult.. Yeah, wiring a 25 story building may take some skill and knowhow, but how many electricians do that? And, thanks to the union, they probably don't make much more than the ones who wire up a single family house.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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Originally posted by: Crimson

I'm sure a couple weeks of training could teach me what I need to know.. I'm not saying it doesn't take ANY skill, I'm saying it ain't rocket science by any means.


In other words you have no clue and are just trolling :cookie:
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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Originally posted by: Crimson

I'm sure a couple weeks of training could teach me what I need to know.
Yeah if you think all that needs to be known to be a Plumber is that sh!t and piss runs downhill and paydays on Friday. I wonder why they have to go to Apprentice School 3 nights a week for 4 years? I bet it takes a lot more knowledge to be a Journeyman Plumber than it does to do what ever it is that you do (besides trolling)
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Plumbing is a very complicated job before you spout off about something you know nothing about try thinking.
I want to see you fix a pipe from a toilet on the 12 story without fully understanding how gravity works when it comes to vacuums inside pipes.
I am sure the non-skilled uneducated type would find himself covered in sh1t if he does not understand where pressure is in which section of pipe.
Every house/building is diffrent and each problem is possibly hidden behind your clients walls.
It takes a lifetime of experience to not screw up a complicated job and to make sure your seals are good and work hand in hand with all the other sections of the buildings plumbing.
Plumbing is a exellent example of a misunderstood trade.

I'm sure a couple weeks of training could teach me what I need to know.. I'm not saying it doesn't take ANY skill, I'm saying it ain't rocket science by any means. And if you think I have no experience with it, my father was (he's dead now) an electrician. He taught me a lot of what he knew when I was a little child.. it was not difficult.. Yeah, wiring a 25 story building may take some skill and knowhow, but how many electricians do that? And, thanks to the union, they probably don't make much more than the ones who wire up a single family house.

Ah the P&N Elitists hard at work just like W. :roll:
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Ah the P&N Elitists hard at work just like W. :roll:
Ah it's the Crimson of the Left!

The Dub has nothing to do with this topic.
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Crimson you are talking out of your ass a temp-employee will not give you a quality job.
(see above plumbing example of your ignorance.)
You are not going to be skilled in a trade in a couple of weeks, if you think this you are obviously a superman jack of all trades or never worked a job more difficult then burger-flipping in your life.

I didn't say a 'temp' employee, I said a NON UNION employee.. Concerning being skilled in a couple weeks, I think a couple weeks training would be able to get you through 90% of all situations that a plumber/electrician/carpenter would run into. Sure, you can throw out examples of big buildings or whatever, and obviously that would take more training and experience.. which one would gain over time.. You don't however need 4+ years of school to become any of those trades though.. Something like an engineer would come to mind, doctor, nurse, chemist, biologist, vet, etc.. Jobs where you need to put in a serious amount of education and training..

But, my point is not to rip those trades, they are needed.. Its just they are not as important as they think they are. If you listen to Red Dawn, you'd think the world would stop if the Unions went away..

The reason their wages would go down if the unions didn't exist would be because the union is artificially inflating the prices of the trade.. And they force companies and workers to join them for fear of retribution if they don't. And don't tell me Unions don't use intimidation to get their way. And don't give me the quality of work bullshit.. If you take away the unions tomorrow, the level of work these 'former' union workers did would not change..

Now, my profession, since I am sure people will start asking.. Is a Solaris/Windows/Linux Admin (Yep, all 3, I rock.. ).. I am part of a group of 8 or 9 people in my company that support several hundred Windows, Solaris, and Linux servers. I would even argue my position doesn't take a huge amount of skill, although i did go to school for 4 years.. and it has taken me my whole life of 'training' on my own.. But, I earn exactly what I do solely and completely based on my skill level and what I bring to the company. And I think I get paid quite well. And I also know I get paid over $30,000 more than a co-worker of mine. Why is that? I am a better employee, I know more, I am willing to go above and beyond what is required by my job description. There is no 'maximum' number of hours I work in a week, I work as many as it takes to get the job done. If I am called at 2am I go into work.. If I need to fly to another part of the country on 1 days notice, I do it.. I don't walk off a job site at 5pm because of 'union rules'.. I don't get to take my lunch from 12:00-1:00 every day because of some union rule..

In a lot of cases Unions do make for lazy workers.. or at least workers who simply do exactly what they are allowed to do, no more, no less. That doesn't mean there aren't union workers who DON'T work hard and give a crap.. I think they get screwed in the current situation. If they want to quit and go work for themselves, they will probably be 'threatened' in one way or another.. either by direct intimidation, or by intimidating companies not to hire them.. And intimidation does not just have to include physical type of threats, it can be threats to do distrupt business in other ways.

Anyways, I'm rambling..
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
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Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: broon
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Sets wages and benefits, makes sure that working conditions are safe,ensures that employees aren't taken advantage of (like working more than 40 hours). They also are able to get better Healthcare packages by using their shear numbers to get good rates and they invest the Retirement funds to ensure that they get good returns enabling the Union Member to have a decent retirement.

The employer should set the wages. Again, hard work will drive competetive wages. OSHA should be ensuring safe working conditions. Dept of Labor should enforce things like hours worked and OT. If a company doesn't want to offer health ensurance or retirement, the employee should take that into consideration before accepting the job. The employee should take the initiative to start their own IRA and consider the cost of supplying their own insurance.

So of the things you listed, MAYBE the insurance is the only thing the union does that helps the worker.
The Employer could always go non Union if they want. Of course the quality of workmanship would fall drastically if they did because the vast majority of Skilled Tradesmen are Union or are Contractors themselves and most Building Developers insist on Union workers because they know the quality of work would be much higher than non Union Shops.

There are right to Work States where Contractors employ both Union and Non Union Employees. Of course the Non Union Employees enjoy the same wages but don't get the same Benefit packages. I have a friend who works for a shop like that as a Sheet-metal Worker. He makes $42.50 an Hour (the same as the Union Employees) but would like to go Union so he could also get the additional $15+ an hour in Bennies. Of course because he is not Union he doesn't have to pay the $30.00 a month dues which in my opinion is a paltry amount when you consider the upside of belonging to the Union. However he really doesn't have a choice because his employer doesn't have to keep him if he decides to go Union being that Mass is a Right to Work State.

:roll: Union workers ALWAYS think their quality of work is higher than non-union workers... Which is part of the problem. You got a bunch of overpaid, underworked, overprotected people. A friend of mine is a non-union electrician.. he is one of the hardest working people I know, and makes a ton of money because many jobs are sick and entired of the union mentality.

If you were as good as you say you are (Not just you, all union workers) they would be able to get paid the same amount as without the union. You need to get off your high horse. Honestly.. carpentry, plumbing, and those types of 'skilled' jobs I consider more of 'trained' jobs.. They aren't that difficult for 99% of the things they do.. it can easily be taught to just about anyone. Whats difficult about plumbing? Slapping PVC together? Soldering copper pipes? Its simple these days.

(Will leave now that I have pissed off all the 'skilled' laborers at Anandtech).

Oh ya everyones elses job is so easy.. you sound like typical bitter employee, always worried about the "other guy". Look People get paid what they are worth, always. Not everyone want to deal with Sh1t everyday as a plumber, going to different jobs sites as a capenter, dealing with burns, walking 20 miles a day and corned toes like I had to as a culinary banquet sever.. thus we get/got PAID in spades.

As for your buddy, he makes what he does because UNION's set the bar. sure he can underbid and get lots of work that way but he has unions to thank. Free market is such a wonderful thing.. when UNION's get too crazy guys like your freind (and my brother who owns a 50/50 pluming co) come in and keep them in check.

I disagree about people getting paid what they are worth always. In many unions they have almost complete control over the workforce. IE, government unions.. My uncle and mother work for a government union (Actually, my mother has since quit and moved into management) and they both laughed about how easy their jobs were/are and how little was actually expected of them. My uncle is retiring at age 52..

THAT is not free market.. The government can't hire non-union workers since the union will not allow that.. so they get complete control over the workforce and are able to force the taxpayers to overpay for underperforming workers.

I'll go back to my mother as an example. She now manages a call center for the local bus service. The employees she controls are former bus drivers who claim a disability and cannot drive anymore (9 out of 10 are BS).. So her workers now make an average of $20-25 to answer phones. They can't be fired unless its an EXTREME situation.. my mother has caught people drinking on the job, one using cocaine (he was allowed to retire), etc.. She catches a guy doing coke, and the union pressures the company into allowing him to retire instead of firing him as they should have. Its sad.. I would have killed each and every one of them after hearing with the crap she puts up with.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Why are you so worried about what someone else makes?

See I could sit here and say any HS kid could be a Unix admin with minimal training or just read unix unleashed. Or better yet translate to Chineese and farm out administrative duties out to the third world. But I wont. Because I understand people get paid what they are worth.

Proof is someone pays it. Not you, so STFU an mind your own damn business..
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Big deal, most of them probably were looking for a sh!tty job before they got a sh!tty job at Wally World. Damn them for trying to make their jobs better.

As for what Cad says about Unions enabling sh!t employess to keep their jobs, I was a member of the Carpenters Union and I know that if the employee wasn't worth a sh!t there was nothing the Union could or would do to force the contractor to keep him. In fact I've seen many cases were a Foreman just didn't like the employee and had him fired and the Union didn't interefere. Of course they'd find the guy another job but if the Contractor that was hiring had bad history with bthat guy they wouldn't be forced to hire him.

Of course Unions for highly skilled Labor have an advantage over Unions for non skilled labor as it's not as easy to replace a worker with highly sought after skills with some uneducated unskilled monkey.

Don't mind them.

It''s my observation people that don't like unions are just jealous they have jobs with no bargaining position, usually doing scut-work themselves. Envious, they are over-the-barrel, could be fired with no recourse at the drop of the hat or replaced easily by one of 2 billion indianese in waiting..

LOL.. I think union workers are envious that they lack the skills to truly make themselves valuable enough to get paid what they do without the protection of a union. They are jealous tha they have to use the union to bargain for them as a whole, and the person next to them who is a crappy worker is making the same amount. They are jealous that without their union protection 5 billion people could easily take over their job with a couple weeks of training.

You're a GD fool. You think cops have no skill? Heavy epuipment operators? Painters? To do it right and worth paying you need lots of skill which is why they get paid. Besides, not everyone wants to be a cop, bulldozer operator or inhale toxic fumes which also changes the market dynamic, or supply/demand matrix. Many more people want to fluff it, get an accounting degree and sit in A/C office all day.
He doesn't have a clue what he is talking about and it really doesn't matter to him. He's just posting in this thread for one reason and one reason only

Originally posted by: Crimson

Will leave now that I have pissed off all the 'skilled' laborers at Anandtech

That's his MO here at AT, to post sh!t that causes flames and nothing else.

BTW, how many times is he going to post that he's leaving only to come back and troll some more?

And yer MO is to abuse your power and rip on anyone who likes Bush. Same difference I guess, except that I am held to some standards. Wonder why that is..
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
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Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: broon
Unions had a place in this country, but not anymore. Now large companies have an HR department that ensures conditions are suitable for workers. In Red Dawn's example, the union is worthless.
How are they worthless, because some of them don't force an employer to keep and crappy worker? The Pay Scale and Benifits Packages for Skilled Labor Union Members enables them to have a quality life, good Medical Benefits and a decent retirement. WTF is wrong with that?

Because it's not Uniquely American :) Haven't you heard, one job with quality life and good benefits and retirement is not the American way. American way is three jobs, no benefits, no retirement aside from stock market.


One important point these union haters miss is all the businesses they suppport with thier high wages spending the money here, at resturants, car dealers, nice homes etc which improves the community and our economy. How many busineses does a minimum wage worker at walmart support? None. Conservatives even admit it, saying tax cuts, meaning more money in your pocket gives you more to spend. Policies that put money in people's pocket stimulate the economy. Demand drives the economy, not supply. Why would you invest in greater production capacity if no one is out there with money to spend? Unions is just another mechanism to recirculate money to the workforce. This is classic Keynes.

One important thing the union LOVERS miss is that inflated wages lead to inflated prices. What good is twice the salary if you are paying $25 for a pair of jeans instead of $10? I mean, if higher wages are good, with no consequences, why not just decree that all workers make $100/hr?
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
but, but, if you let the oh so deserving CEO have all the extra profit he will make MORE mc jobs for all of us
(Yeah right more like someone goes out and buys that new BMW that the almighty capitalism owes him and he is so well deserving of.) :roll:

If its so easy being a CEO why aren't you creating 10000 jobs and reaping the profits?
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Crimson
(Will leave now that I have pissed off all the 'skilled' laborers at Anandtech).
Still hanging around trolling?

How many times you gonna post that? I'll repost my comment to you then.. Still abusing your power?
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Remind me never to pay you to half-ass anything for me Crimson.

I don't half-ass anything.. Because if I do, I will lose my job.. or not continue to get work.. I make sure everything I do is well done otherwise I won't continue to get paid.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
All this have been responded to and debunked. What? Still abusing MY your braincells having to read your endless trolling? :cookie:
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
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Originally posted by: Zebo
Why are you so worried about what someone else makes?

See I could sit here and say any HS kid could be a Unix admin with minimal training or just read unix unleashed. Or better yet translate to Chineese and farm out administrative duties out to the third world. But I wont. Because I understand people get paid what they are worth.

Proof is someone pays it. Not you, so STFU an mind your own damn business..

Thanks for the intelligent response.. I don't care what other people make.. I'm saying that many of them are artificially overpaid because of the abusive power of the unions. Especially government unions. And that DOES effect me because I am a taxpayer.

And, if my company thought any HS kid could do my job, I would be fired.. I have no job protection other than my level of work and value to the company. Same goes for Chinese workers, etc.. If my value to the company is not backed up by action, I'm gone.. the same level of scrutiny is not applied to union workers.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81

I disagree about people getting paid what they are worth always

You're "Worth" exactly what you can get. Proof is you got it.

I think you have a problem with mixing "worth" and "deserve". As for whether or not they "deserve" these things, I honestly don't even know what the hell that means. This concept appears often in the context of traditional moral doctrine or guessing or envy, but whenever I try to think about it in a serious, analytical way, it becomes devoid of any meaning. People either desire or do not desire things and then either obtain them or do not do so. Deserve is merely a matter of interpretation.
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
All this have been responded to and debunked. What? Still abusing MY your braincells having to read your endless trolling? :cookie:

Oh, I'm sorry.. I must have missed your 'debunking'.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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this thread is now gone into la-la land. *steps away*
Thanks for the very valid points Zebo.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Wal-Mart Canada Corp. announced Wednesday it will close a Quebec store whose unionized employees were involved in negotiations to obtain their first labour contract.

?Despite nine days of meetings over three months, we've been unable to reach an agreement with the union that in our view will allow the store to operate efficiently and profitably,? company spokesman Andrew Pelletier said in a statement.

The store, which will close in May, is located in Saguenay, about 250 kilometres north of Quebec City. Nearly 200 employees received union accreditation last summer, making it the chain's only unionized outlet at the time.

The United Food and Commercial Workers Union was not available for immediate comment but Claudia Tremblay, a cashier at the store, said many employees burst into tears when managers told them about the news Wednesday morning.

?Many people cried, including myself,? Tremblay, 29, said in an interview. ?I'm a mother of two children and I'm separated from my husband. It's very difficult.?

Tremblay said she abstained from the unionization vote, adding she was upset that her non-commital stance won't save her job.

Pelletier said the union walked away on Feb. 1 from the collective-bargaining process, which was scheduled to run until at least March 15, and told the company and the conciliator it would be applying for arbitration.

?On Feb. 2, 2005, the union officially applied for first contract arbitration and in doing so acknowledged that the company and union were not likely to reach a collective agreement,? he said.

Employees at another Wal-Mart store in St-Hyacinthe, east of Montreal, have also been accredited recently.

Wal-Mart operates two other non-unionized stores in the Saguenay-Lac St-Jean region.

Wal-Mart, whose headquarters are in Mississauga, Ont., operates 256 stores and six Sam's Clubs across Canada with more than 70,000 employees.









This is the same stuff they pulled when they ditched butcher jobs when the butchers tried to unionize...There answer sell no more fresh meat -just packaged!
Congrats to the newly wal-mart free city. Now we know what will shut them down. -Their own greed! :beer:

They met 3 times a month? WTF were the management doing the other 27 days of the month? Obviously not working toward a solution. It is obvious keeping their underpaid workers working part-time without benefits and subsidized by food stamps while sucking down corporate welfare is their agenda -not good business sense

Woohoo! Go Wal Mart! Fvck those low-skill piss ants! If they want to get paid the big bucks they better get themselves educated and skilled and find a REAL job! I'm sick of these skill-less whiners who piss and moan because they don't make the same money as people in PROFESSIONAL positions. If you want SKILLED wages, learn to do SKILLED labor!

Jason