Wait... we can 'lose' a plane in this day and age?

[bsobel]

I'm sure there must be some kind of "last trasmitted position" somewhere so if it crashed it should be around that spot. If the it's just that the avionics totally crapped out I'm sure the pilot had time to talk to the air traffic controllers.

"An automated message was received at 3.14am indicating a failure of the electrical system, Air France said in a statement". I don't know what part of the fact that the pilots DID NOT CONTACT ATC you can't seem to grasp.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Okay, let's give them a "last known location" 10 minutes before the actual crash. Or was it 5 minutes? Or 1 minute? 10 minutes of uncertainty, at 600mph, is a huge area. Let's narrow it down & assume that its course didn't change by more than 45 degrees. Under that assumption, 600mph, up to 10 minutes, that leaves an area of 7853 square miles.
For the sake of reference, that's 90% the size of the entire state of New Jersey.

7853 <<<<<<<<<<<< 41,100,000

these guys dont even know which side of the atlantic to look...
it would seem to me that this type 0f hint would be at least SOMEWHAT useful.


its one thing to look for a needle in a haystack, but if you can eliminate 99.99980487% of the haystack to look in, that is a pretty good headstart.

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

Originally posted by: Clair de Lune

Originally posted by: Crusty
GPS is one way. The plane knows where it is but the satellites don't.

And this is such an insurmountable technological obstacle....

GPS also wouldn't work under water I don't believe...

 

[Flammable]

Originally posted by: gwai lo
It doesn't sound like something particularly difficult, I'm sort of curious as to why airlines don't track their own aircraft now that you bring it up..

Sounds like a large centralized system for tracking all objects in the air would be tricky to organize..

However, I'm sure the military doesn't have this problem, USAF tracks a huge number of objects in space.

it's expensive, thats why many airlines don't want to hop onto the nexgen ATC system yet. Cost hundreds of thousands to upgrade each plane

 

[Flammable]

Originally posted by: bsobel

I'm sure there must be some kind of "last trasmitted position" somewhere so if it crashed it should be around that spot. If the it's just that the avionics totally crapped out I'm sure the pilot had time to talk to the air traffic controllers.

"An automated message was received at 3.14am indicating a failure of the electrical system, Air France said in a statement". I don't know what part of the fact that the pilots DID NOT CONTACT ATC you can't seem to grasp.

The message isn't read by people, it's kept in a system where it can be loked up should an accident like this occur. Also, with the electrical systems out, they wouldn't be able to transmit to ATC if they were even talking to them.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: Flammable

Originally posted by: bsobel

I'm sure there must be some kind of "last trasmitted position" somewhere so if it crashed it should be around that spot. If the it's just that the avionics totally crapped out I'm sure the pilot had time to talk to the air traffic controllers.

"An automated message was received at 3.14am indicating a failure of the electrical system, Air France said in a statement". I don't know what part of the fact that the pilots DID NOT CONTACT ATC you can't seem to grasp.

The message isn't read by people, it's kept in a system where it can be loked up should an accident like this occur. Also, with the electrical systems out, they wouldn't be able to transmit to ATC if they were even talking to them.

Yep... Still amazes me people question this. It's amazing the level of safety flying has achieved in 100 or so years, but there are still issues and there always will be.

(Anyone know why airplane windows are rounded at the edges, anyone remember how many people died to make that improvement happen?)

 

[bsobel]

7853 <<<<<<<<<<<< 41,100,000
these guys dont even know which side of the atlantic to look...
it would seem to me that this type 0f hint would be at least SOMEWHAT useful.

""It seems the zone has been identified down to within 10 nautical miles," Borloo said on France 2 state television."

Also bear in mind that early media reports are often wrong (I still remember the press reporting bombings at the treasury and state department on 9/11). Sounds like another plane may have seen wrekage and the search zone narrowed greatly.

 

[ProfJohn]

I am guessing that we won't find remains of this plane until after the storm has passed the area. Unless we find it by dump luck.

We most likely need rather calm seas and a high visibility in order to find the plane since we are most likely looking for small bits and pieces.

 

[Modular]

This is why I require Xanax to get on a plane.

 

[guyver01]

before some dumbfuck decides to come into this thread an ask "did the bermuda triangle get them?" ...

bermuda is about a million miles NORTH of Rio... so unless the triangle swallowed Cuba, Puerto Rico, and most of the northern portion of South America...

no.. it's not the "bramuda trangel"

 

[guyver01]

This doesn't sound good, if it's pans out to be related..

Pilots flying a commercial jet from Paris to Rio de Janeiro for Brazil's largest airline, TAM, spotted what they thought was fire in the ocean along the Air France jet's route early Monday, the airline said in a statement e-mailed to The Associated Press.

Brazilian Air Force spokesman Col. Jorge Amaral said authorities were investigating the report, according to the Agencia Brasil official news service.

"There is information that the pilot of a TAM aircraft saw several orange points on the ocean while flying over the region ... where the Air France plane disappeared," Amaral said.

"After arriving in Brazil, the pilot found out about the disappearance (of the Air France plane) and said that he thought those points on the ocean were fire."

 

[StinkyPinky]

Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
I heard it this morning and heard it in depth on NPR just now.

They're combing the ocean to locate the plane right now and they say it's looking grim. The whole time I was really confused. This is 2009 people. How can we lose a 300-passenger transatlantic plane????

On the mult-million dollar plane, they can't bother to equip one, two or how about three independently operated GPS? They cost like what, a fraction of the whole plane?

I think it's mind boggling that we can't locate a plane in this day and age.

I think this is a fair question, and perhaps something the media needs to ask. These people aren't idiots so I'm sure there is a reason why they can't find it, but I'd like to know what it is.

 

[guyver01]

Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
I think this is a fair question, and perhaps something the media needs to ask. These people aren't idiots so I'm sure there is a reason why they can't find it, but I'd like to know what it is.

GPS... telemetry.... transponders.... all that stuff needs power.

if there's a fire or explosion in an avionics compartment, or an engine... the stuff won't get power... so youre not gonna have an exact spot.... just a point of origin or last known coordinates.... and you begin your search from there.

if a plane is travelling at 35,000 feet, and loses power... it can glide to a crash in the ocean 50,100,500 miles, etc, from its last known position... you dont just lose power and drop like a rock.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
I think this is a fair question, and perhaps something the media needs to ask. These people aren't idiots so I'm sure there is a reason why they can't find it, but I'd like to know what it is.

GPS... telemetry.... transponders.... all that stuff needs power.

if there's a fire or explosion in an avionics compartment, or an engine... the stuff won't get power... so youre not gonna have an exact spot.... just a point of origin or last known coordinates.... and you begin your search from there.

if a plane is travelling at 35,000 feet, and loses power... it can glide to a crash in the ocean 50,100,500 miles, etc, from its last known position... you dont just lose power and drop like a rock.

Surely they have a backup running off batteries?

 

[guyver01]

Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
Surely they have a backup running off batteries?

and why would you need batteries? in case of power failure? you lose power.. you're gonna crash. not to mention the extra weight it adds to the plane to carry battery backups for vital electronics, etc... and if there's an explosion or fire in the avionics bay, where the batteries would be.. the batteries would melt or be destroyed and be useless anyways..

 

[StinkyPinky]

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
Surely they have a backup running off batteries?

and why would you need batteries? in case of power failure? you lose power.. you're gonna crash. not to mention the extra weight it adds to the plane to carry battery backups for vital electronics, etc...

Well, seems like a safely thing to me. Not all planes that lose power crash and burn with everyone dead. If I was a survivor I'd like to know a backup GPS was beaming out my location.

 

[Daaavo]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: Flammable

Originally posted by: bsobel

I'm sure there must be some kind of "last trasmitted position" somewhere so if it crashed it should be around that spot. If the it's just that the avionics totally crapped out I'm sure the pilot had time to talk to the air traffic controllers.

"An automated message was received at 3.14am indicating a failure of the electrical system, Air France said in a statement". I don't know what part of the fact that the pilots DID NOT CONTACT ATC you can't seem to grasp.

The message isn't read by people, it's kept in a system where it can be loked up should an accident like this occur. Also, with the electrical systems out, they wouldn't be able to transmit to ATC if they were even talking to them.

Yep... Still amazes me people question this. It's amazing the level of safety flying has achieved in 100 or so years, but there are still issues and there always will be.

(Anyone know why airplane windows are rounded at the edges, anyone remember how many people died to make that improvement happen?)

I'm unsure of the # of people that died, but I'm pretty sure that it was the de Havilland Comet that made that problem noticed.

 

[guyver01]

Originally posted by: StinkyPinky

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
Surely they have a backup running off batteries?

and why would you need batteries? in case of power failure? you lose power.. you're gonna crash. not to mention the extra weight it adds to the plane to carry battery backups for vital electronics, etc...

Well, seems like a safely thing to me. Not all planes that lose power crash and burn with everyone dead. If I was a survivor I'd like to know a backup GPS was beaming out my location.

If you lose engines at 35,000 feet... i seriously doubt you're gonna have a soft landing tho..

Even a plane climbing away from an airport has crashed after losing engines.

 

[Xylitol]

you can get internet on a plane, yet the plane doesn't upload its location onto the internet/system?

 

[Colt45]

I'm rather surprised they don't have a battery powered jiggawatt vacuum tube shit-hits-the-fan transceiver.

My plane would have 3. and all smoking.

 

[guyver01]

Originally posted by: Xylitol
you can get internet on a plane, yet the plane doesn't upload its location onto the internet/system?

and how is it supposed to do that with no power?

 

[Xylitol]

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: Xylitol
you can get internet on a plane, yet the plane doesn't upload its location onto the internet/system?

and how is it supposed to do that with no power?

so i guess it did do it until it lost power? the search shouldn't be so hard on open seas...

 

[guyver01]

Originally posted by: Xylitol
so i guess it did do it until it lost power? the search shouldn't be so hard on open seas...

go to the beach... wade out about 30 feet ... and float there.. dont do anything except float on your back...
wait about 15 minutes.

you will NOT be where you began, due to current pull.

depending on the current, you could be 100 feet from your position... or 5 miles..

now imagine that in the ocean..

 

[KLin]

Originally posted by: Xylitol

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: Xylitol
you can get internet on a plane, yet the plane doesn't upload its location onto the internet/system?

and how is it supposed to do that with no power?

so i guess it did do it until it lost power? the search shouldn't be so hard on open seas...

Have you ever tried searching for something in the ocean?

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Xylitol

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: Xylitol
you can get internet on a plane, yet the plane doesn't upload its location onto the internet/system?

and how is it supposed to do that with no power?

so i guess it did do it until it lost power? the search shouldn't be so hard on open seas...

it took like 70 years to find the titanic