VW to offer money to diesel owners

[JulesMaximus]

It's not giving the cars a free pass, it's giving the consumers a free pass. There is no other options that doesn't end up severely hurting consumers.

That's what class action lawsuits are for.

I feel bad for anyone who bought one of these cars but ultimately it is between them and VW. I don't think changing the standards and allowing these cars to pollute 10-40 times the allowed amount for other vehicles in the same class is acceptable.

 

[tynopik]

That's what class action lawsuits are for.

again, a class action lawsuit will not result in the customers getting new cars

and even if it did, the environmental benefit of junking new cars is questionable at best

I don't think changing the standards and allowing these cars to pollute 10-40 times the allowed amount for other vehicles in the same class is acceptable.

there is no other choice that doesn't screw over consumers

also you're looking at it the wrong way. You're focusing on '10-40x' when really you should be looking at the total amount of pollution being emitted in the world and you'll see that the actual impact is practically nonexistent. You keep talking about how allowing them to continue is 'unacceptable' while the reality is that it's not going to make any difference one way or another

 

[Brian Stirling]

talk about creating straw man arguments

i never said anything of the sort



the problem is that VW can't fix the problem AND make the owners whole

i can guarantee that owners will not be getting new cars or enough money to buy new cars from VW, never going to happen

given that, consumers shouldn't be made to bear the burden of this fiasco

and even if vw did give everyone a new car, you know what else is bad for the environment? making new cars. Manufacturing a car has a ton of environmental impact, so junking a car before it's natural lifetime has expired is not good. The environmental calculus isn't nearly as clear as some of you think



and again, nobody is saying that

It is uncanny just how many folks that raise the older car issue ALSO suggest current cars shouldn't be made to conform to the standards -- straw man not found!

And it is mindbogglingly stupid to argue the car maker shouldn't be required to fix and/or make good the cars or owners. VW threw the dice and knowingly cheated so they should be 100% required to 100% fix the problem they are 100% responsible for!

There are two ways I can think of that VW could fix the problem -- one way would be to lock the software so that it ALWAYS operates as it does when under test. Doing that may fix the emissions problem but will almost certainly result in a reduction in power and mileage. So, if that's the approach they plan to take they are going to have to find a way to make it up to the car owners who got less than they paid for. The other way would be to do a much more extensive and expensive modification to the car to install a DEF system. I've estimated that doing this would likely cost VW about $4K per car but doing so should permit full compliance with the standards without reducing power or mileage.

Either way VW is going to face lawsuits and penalties and loss of business and that's going to add up big time. Too fucking bad VW -- you rolled the dice and lost!


Brian

 

[Brian Stirling]

again, a class action lawsuit will not result in the customers getting new cars

and even if it did, the environmental benefit of junking new cars is questionable at best



there is no other choice that doesn't screw over consumers

also you're looking at it the wrong way. You're focusing on '10-40x' when really you should be looking at the total amount of pollution being emitted in the world and you'll see that the actual impact is practically nonexistent. You keep talking about how allowing them to continue is 'unacceptable' while the reality is that it's not going to make any difference one way or another

How the fuck do you conclude VW can't fix the problem -- where the hell do you get off making such and asinine claim? There is a 100% fix for this by modifying to install a DEF system -- go ahead, call me a liar!

VW owns this and they ARE going to fix this -- junking cars isn't required!


Brian

 

[tynopik]

It is uncanny just how many folks that raise the older car issue ALSO suggest current cars shouldn't be made to conform to the standards -- straw man not found!

no one in this thread is saying manufacturers shouldn't be forced to comply

therefore you're arguing against a position no one is advocating, the dictionary definition of strawman

 

[tynopik]

How the fuck do you conclude VW can't fix the problem -- where the hell do you get off making such and asinine claim? There is a 100% fix for this by modifying to install a DEF system

we'll see

news reports i had read were less optimistic, but perhaps it will work acceptably

 

[JulesMaximus]

again, a class action lawsuit will not result in the customers getting new cars

and even if it did, the environmental benefit of junking new cars is questionable at best

there is no other choice that doesn't screw over consumers

Again, this is between VW and their customers who bought these vehicles.

also you're looking at it the wrong way. You're focusing on '10-40x' when really you should be looking at the total amount of pollution being emitted in the world and you'll see that the actual impact is practically nonexistent. You keep talking about how allowing them to continue is 'unacceptable' while the reality is that it's not going to make any difference one way or another

No, actually you're looking at it the wrong way. Society has said we want cars to be cleaner and pollute less so we have set standards, known standards, that VW decided to flout and circumvent fraudulently. So, while you're correct that the consumer is getting screwed it is VW doing the screwing, not the EPA.

The total amount of pollution output worldwide is completely irrelevant.

 

[Scarpozzi]

If you ask me, VW diesels are a hell of a value even with poor emissions. 2 gens ago, Jettas got 50mpg and the newer ones were around that... I don't care what anyone says, they're efficient and the cost of ownership is generally low for what you get.

Those who want to wage a war with VW over this are just looking for a handout. The cars still drive perfectly fine. Of course, what they did is still wrong...but I want to see them fix the problem and stick around instead of going under because of it.

 

[JulesMaximus]

If you ask me, VW diesels are a hell of a value even with poor emissions. 2 gens ago, Jettas got 50mpg and the newer ones were around that... I don't care what anyone says, they're efficient and the cost of ownership is generally low for what you get.

Those who want to wage a war with VW over this are just looking for a handout. The cars still drive perfectly fine. Of course, what they did is still wrong...but I want to see them fix the problem and stick around instead of going under because of it.

That may change. No way in hell would I buy one right now. This is a big unknown.

 

[NoTine42]

How the fuck do you conclude VW can't fix the problem -- where the hell do you get off making such and asinine claim? There is a 100% fix for this by modifying to install a DEF system -- go ahead, call me a liar!

VW owns this and they ARE going to fix this -- junking cars isn't required!


Brian

Aren't the Passat's with DEF still polluting too much?

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0922/VW-diesel-emissions-recall-widens-10-things-you-need-to-know

A VW Passat TDI (with urea aftertreatment) was 5 to 20 times the maximum.

Urea will need to be part of the solution, but that isn't the only fix needed for VW