VW to offer money to diesel owners

[tynopik]

This is a strawman argument, and even then, a terrible one.

Not at all

Most pollution from cars comes from a very small handful of older cars

Modern emissions control is so good that one older car is worse than hundreds of newer cars

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

This is the silver lining to the offer. It's a start and doesn't prevent future action. When I read then I felt a little better for VW owners.

agreed. it made this whole sham a bit easier to deal with. definitely a good will offer from VW, sans strings

 

[tynopik]

and if you want to look at real problems, look at semis and nafta

http://greenpeacecorps.org/Trucking_Emissions.html

the NAFTA/Mexican Truck Emissions Overview conducted in late 2004 revealed that “66% of the Mexican truck fleet is 1993 model year and older (1993 was when the diesel engine fleet was close to 100% electronic conversion, which means that engines built in 1993 and later typically use electronic fuel injection and computer controls to reduce emissions, improve performance and fuel economy).” Even more alarming is the overview’s assessment that “25% of the Mexican truck fleet is pre 1980 model year, running on engines which emit very high levels of Nitrogen Oxide (NOx) and Particulate Matter (PM) emissions on average.”

but even older US semis are a huge issue

The Environmental Protection Agency has adopted strict new emission standards for on-road heavy-duty vehicles that took effect beginning in 2007. Under these new standards, both Nitrogen Oxide and Particulate Matter emissions must be ten times lower than 2004 levels, and the 2007 standards represent a 25-fold reduction compared to emission standards in the early 1990’s.

VW's shenanigans don't be begin to move the needle compared to what's going on

oh, and did I mention container ships?

15 of the world's biggest ships may now emit as much pollution as all the world's 760m cars

 

[Ares202]

I would be happy to see VAG thrown out of the american market completely. Besides Porsche, every car they make is plastic infused junk that will break down in 80,000 miles, 30,000 for any turbo model. They are junk, not even comparable to KIA or Hyundai in quality.

My turbo petrol VW has done 100,000 and zero mechanical problems. Just make sure you put the right oil in it and service it when it says. They aren't as reliable as Japanese cars but no worse than the average.

Despite what has happened, Personally I would buy another VW, just not a diesel. I think even people here in Europe are starting the realise that nitrous oxide is much worse than CO2.

Can someone clarify why the specific diesel engines are emitting 70? times the limit in certain circumstances? Was it a cost cutting measure to reduce engine costs? What makes these engines so special, Compared to for example a ford/BMW 1.6-2.0 litre turbo diesel engine? Which seem very similar in design

 

[Phoenix86]

Not at all

Most pollution from cars comes from a very small handful of older cars

Modern emissions control is so good that one older car is worse than hundreds of newer cars

You ignored the meat of the post, why?

While relevant to the environment, because older cars do pollute more, it has nothing to do with what VW did. Therefore it's a straw man.

What about modern emission controls from VWs? That's the point.

 

[Phoenix86]

oh, and did I mention container ships?

That's the elephant in the room for the environment.

 

[tynopik]

While relevant to the environment, because older cars do pollute more, it has nothing to do with what VW did. Therefore it's a straw man.

It has everything to do with the (over)reaction to what VW did

yes VW should be punished, but these calls for the vehicles to be banned from the road or severely detuned is nonsensical

 

[K1052]

oh, and did I mention container ships?

US maritime emissions standards are also becoming stringent, along with other major international port cities. They have to use low sulfur fuel 200 miles out starting this year. LNG is also increasingly being looked at as an alternative to bunker oil. Significant upgrades to ports to enable cold ironing have been/are being implemented as well.

The US is such an enormous market for container shipping that, if we chose, we could largely set the environmental standard. We already influence it a good deal.

 

[K1052]

It has everything to do with the (over)reaction to what VW did

yes VW should be punished, but these calls for the vehicles to be banned from the road or severely detuned is nonsensical

If severely detuning the cars is what has to happen to bring them into compliance with the law then yes. The enormous liability from defrauding it's customers and deceiving the government is totally on them.

 

[Phoenix86]

It has everything to do with the (over)reaction to what VW did

yes VW should be punished, but these calls for the vehicles to be banned from the road or severely detuned is nonsensical

You're just saying the bar is so high it is irrelevant they don't meet it due to older cars. I'm saying they intentionally cheated the bar, and that's a much bigger issue.

The only way to lower the average pollution/car is having a high bar for new cars to meet. As cars age what you're saying won't be true. You're looking at your feet, I'm looking 10+ years from now. If you don't maintain the high bar the same argument your making now will still be valid in 10 years.

 

[tynopik]

If severely detuning the cars is what has to happen to bring them into compliance with the law then yes.

no

for the same reason we don't require older cars to meet today's standards: it's not worth it

 

[tynopik]

I'm saying they intentionally cheated the bar, and that's a much bigger issue.

i never said VW shouldn't be punished

they absolutely should be

but that doesn't mean the consumer who bought a VW car in good faith should be punished too

The only way to lower the average pollution/car is having a high bar for new cars to meet. As cars age what you're saying won't be true. You're looking at your feet, I'm looking 10+ years from now. If you don't maintain the high bar the same argument your making now will still be valid in 10 years.

what are you going on about?

i'm not arguing against high standards for new cars

however a certain number of cars that didn't meet standards slipped through the cracks and are now out 'in the wild'.

What should be done with that limited, one-time (hopefully) batch of cars? The answer is nothing. Any attempt to detune would cause more harm to consumers than it would help to the environment.

 

[Phoenix86]

If the cars are ultimately banned as-is, who do you think is on the hook for that?

It benefits the consumer and the environment.

 

[K1052]

no

for the same reason we don't require older cars to meet today's standards: it's not worth it

Yes.

Those vehicles were sold prior to the new standards going into effect. The TDIs were not. This is a totally inapplicable comparison.

 

[tynopik]

Yes.

Those vehicles were sold prior to the new standards going into effect. The TDIs were not.

doesn't matter

This is a totally inapplicable comparison.

incorrect

the logic is exactly the same

 

[K1052]

doesn't matter

Tell that to the EPA and CARB. I think they'll have a different point of view.

They're going to make VW fix the cars so they are compliant to the regulations under which they were allowed to be sold. If that entails a significant performance hit then that's for VW to resolve with it's affected customer base.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Facts? You want facts? OK. Fine.

Fact: the cars are not currently road legal as they don't pass emissions test. This kind of affects resale value, which is likely approaching 0 until a fix is in place, no matter how you slice it, it's a significant loss to the consumer.

Fact: they were given subsidies and tax credits for being green. This directly robs the government meaning everyone, even those who didn't buy one are indirectly affected.

Fact: this is massive consumer fraud.

Fact: it wasn't detected as early as it should have been due to lax regulation laws.

Fact: confirmed my initial suspicion.

Not really. The tests are set to be run under certain conditions. VW programmed their cars to enter a "clean running" mode to beat the testing and then return the tune to normal mode, which is polluting 10-40x the amount allowed under the law after the testing was completed.

So, you take your car in for a smog check and the car detects this and enters a running state that will pass the test and once the test is complete it returns to normal running spewing out pollution.

however a certain number of cars that didn't meet standards slipped through the cracks and are now out 'in the wild'.

What should be done with that limited, one-time (hopefully) batch of cars? The answer is nothing. Any attempt to detune would cause more harm to consumers than it would help to the environment.

It's not just SOME VW diesels. It is pretty much all TDI models sold between 2009 and 2015. We're talking about nearly half a million cars in the United States alone.

What VW did was commit fraud on a massive scale. Fraud against the consumers who were buying these cars on the expectation that they were clean diesels and fraud against the government agencies that set emissions standards.

 

[BoomerD]

Not really. The tests are set to be run under certain conditions. VW programmed their cars to enter a "clean running" mode to beat the testing and then return the tune to normal mode, which is polluting 10-40x the amount allowed under the law after the testing was completed.

So, you take your car in for a smog check and the car detects this and enters a running state that will pass the test and once the test is complete it returns to normal running spewing out pollution.



It's not just SOME VW diesels. It is pretty much all TDI models sold between 2009 and 2015. We're talking about nearly half a million cars in the United States alone.

What VW did was commit fraud on a massive scale. Fraud against the consumers who were buying these cars on the expectation that they were clean diesels and fraud against the government agencies that set emissions standards.

Yep. Fraud on a massive scale describes it perfectly. VW should NOT get a fine...and be allowed to leave the cars on the US roadways. They should be REQUIRED to buy back each and every one of them...at the selling price plus any finance fees...and remove them ALL from the US of A. What they do with them after that...send them to China? They certainly don't seem to mind pollution.

This is the kind of fraud that should HURT the offending company...not just smack them on the wrist and tell them, "Bad boys."

 

[Brian Stirling]

I think some people here are going to be surprised when they find out that pre-1967 vehicles are allowed to pollute as much as they want

even since 1967, cars are only required to meet the levels that were in force when they were new.

even with the 'cheat', those VW cars are going to be cleaner than many 15 year old diesels on the road

let's not pretend that this is resulting in some huge spike in overall emissions, in reality it's all background noise

should VW be punished? sure

but should current owners be punished by forcing them to lose performance or install unwieldy addons? absolutely not

Lots of things get "Grandfathered" and are not required to be updated to current code. This applies to building codes and, yes, vehicle emissions. OTH, most of these older vehicles see very little use and there's not that many on the road at any given time. Imagine the outrage from owners of classic cars if they had to modify them to meet current code.

Frankly, when folks like you raise this issue you do so not because you think forcing classic cars to meet current code is a good idea but rather that we should just allow all car makers to do as they please. That we shouldn't be putting demands on car makers to meet any code whatsoever.

And who said current OWNERS should pay the price for this fraud? No, the onus to fix this problem and/or make owners whole is on VW.

For those that think emissions regulations are pointless perhaps you might wish to live in eastern China. The WHO states that as many as 7M people die each year from pollution related illnesses. In China, there is a 5 year difference in life expectancy for those living in the smoggy areas versus the less smoggy areas.

Yeah, pollution controls are stupid, aren't they!


Brian

 

[Phoenix86]

Not really. The tests are set to be run under certain conditions.

Self-regulation. EPA puts out criteria, manufacturer tests and submits results. If there was proper oversight these would have been tested by the EPA in real world scenarios (not just test mode), at the manufacturer's expense. This type of oversight would have prevented the whole mess.

 

[tynopik]

Frankly, when folks like you raise this issue you do so not because you think forcing classic cars to meet current code is a good idea but rather that we should just allow all car makers to do as they please. That we shouldn't be putting demands on car makers to meet any code whatsoever.

talk about creating straw man arguments

i never said anything of the sort

And who said current OWNERS should pay the price for this fraud? No, the onus to fix this problem and/or make owners whole is on VW.

the problem is that VW can't fix the problem AND make the owners whole

i can guarantee that owners will not be getting new cars or enough money to buy new cars from VW, never going to happen

given that, consumers shouldn't be made to bear the burden of this fiasco

and even if vw did give everyone a new car, you know what else is bad for the environment? making new cars. Manufacturing a car has a ton of environmental impact, so junking a car before it's natural lifetime has expired is not good. The environmental calculus isn't nearly as clear as some of you think

For those that think emissions regulations are pointless

and again, nobody is saying that

 

[JulesMaximus]

Self-regulation. EPA puts out criteria, manufacturer tests and submits results. If there was proper oversight these would have been tested by the EPA in real world scenarios (not just test mode), at the manufacturer's expense. This type of oversight would have prevented the whole mess.

The state of CA tests cars every 2 years, including diesel cars. It is mandatory to renew your registration.

The cars were passing those tests by using this cheat as well.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Self-regulation. EPA puts out criteria, manufacturer tests and submits results. If there was proper oversight these would have been tested by the EPA in real world scenarios (not just test mode), at the manufacturer's expense. This type of oversight would have prevented the whole mess.

The EPA does tests too but yes if they were funded & staffed better this may have been discovered earlier. VW specifically changed these cars to know when its being tested. This wasn't a mistake they intentionally built the cheating ability into the car.

 

[JulesMaximus]

the problem is that VW can't fix the problem AND make the owners whole

i can guarantee that owners will not be getting new cars or enough money to buy new cars from VW, never going to happen

given that, consumers shouldn't be made to bear the burden of this fiasco

They can fix them. How much that will cost and whether the fix negatively impacts fuel economy and power remains to be seen.

Once that is clear I think we will have a better idea of what it will take to make the customers whole.

I doubt customers will be getting a new car either. It's a PR nightmare for VW but they brought it upon themselves.

Giving the cars a free pass is not a viable option IMO.

 

[tynopik]

They can fix them. How much that will cost and whether the fix negatively impacts fuel economy and power remains to be seen.

It's already pretty clear that it will negatively affect performance significantly whatever they do.

Once that is clear I think we will have a better idea of what it will take to make the customers whole.

There is no way to make customers whole after performance is cut like that short of giving them new cars.

I doubt customers will be getting a new car either.

exactly

Giving the cars a free pass is not a viable option IMO.

It's not giving the cars a free pass, it's giving the consumers a free pass. There is no other options that doesn't end up severely hurting consumers.