VW recalls 482,000 diesel cars due to a system to trick emissions faces 18bil fine

[Phokus]

Elon Musk: Dieselgate Proves It's Time to Go Electric

I'm all for it, but they need to be able to lower the cost even more for mainstream adoption. Not even 30k is going to cut it.

 

[momeNt]

So, because your brakes have so little pressure they don't stop you before you hit the wall, you should just remove them entirely? Good plan. You'll be using those walls to stop you a lot more. Why not fix the problem of not enough pressure?

I'd rather fund the basketweaving institute to instead weave strawman out of shredded up EPA policies and guidelines than try to follow whatever the hell it is you are trying to say.

 

[momeNt]

Elon Musk: Dieselgate Proves It's Time to Go Electric

Not that I know, because I don't. But I wonder how much water will be contaminated as a result of lithium mining each year if every vehicle produced was an electric vehicle. The environment may not be able to support mainstream adoption. At least not for battery EV.

 

[Sabrewings]

I'd rather fund the basketweaving institute to instead weave strawman out of shredded up EPA policies and guidelines than try to follow whatever the hell it is you are trying to say.

Good to know you're keeping up. Proves my point plus another.

 

[momeNt]

Good to know you're keeping up. Proves my point plus another.

I'm keeping up perfectly fine. Your statement that I chose to ignore is a combination of loaded and just a generally poor analogy.

A better analogy would be a home inspector failing over the course of 7 years to properly inspect homes for possible code violations. Then after 7 years, a sort-of home inspector, let's call them a homebuying awareness advocacy group, discovers a lot of missed flags in your home inspections, a specific homebuilder wired up a bunch of fake grounds or something. In response the home inspector raises his price so he can inspect better.

Derp.

 

[Aharami]

no, Sabrewings' analogy was perfectly fine.

 

[LTC8K6]

Not that I know, because I don't. But I wonder how much water will be contaminated as a result of lithium mining each year if every vehicle produced was an electric vehicle. The environment may not be able to support mainstream adoption. At least not for battery EV.

The power grid is already bending under the load every summer and winter.

 

[momeNt]

no, Sabrewings' analogy was perfectly fine.

So did every car manufacturer install cheat devices? Because I'm pretty sure that every single car needs brakes to stop, or a wall, or sufficient space to decelerate.

The flawed assumption in his analogy is that the EPA is REQUIRED in order to stop car manufacturers from violating emissions violations. The EPA was not even the organization that discovered the emissions violations.

The EPA will capitalize on what is essentially a black swan event and use it to justify the expansion of their agency. For something they did not discover themselves, and how it was discovered was somebody with the means to test vehicles simply asked the question, how is their performance to emissions ratio so high? It takes more funding to ask that question?

By replacing the brakes, or fixing the pressure, do you mean maybe to put a new agency in charge of protecting the environment?

 

[Sabrewings]

I'm keeping up perfectly fine. Your statement that I chose to ignore is a combination of loaded and just a generally poor analogy.

A better analogy would be a home inspector failing over the course of 7 years to properly inspect homes for possible code violations. Then after 7 years, a sort-of home inspector, let's call them a homebuying awareness advocacy group, discovers a lot of missed flags in your home inspections, a specific homebuilder wired up a bunch of fake grounds or something. In response the home inspector raises his price so he can inspect better.

Derp.

Flawed again. A more accurate analogy would be the home inspector didn't have the manpower himself to accomplish every inspection and some homes only received a cursory visual. More money means hiring more manpower which allows for more detailed inspections of every home.

 

[momeNt]

The power grid is already bending under the load every summer and winter.

Well power grid is one thing, but the mining process of lithium itself would need to go up considerably to satisfy the demand of that many vehicles. Currently less than 1% of the market for passenger vehicles are electric. A large amount of lithium is mined by pumping and evaporating groundwater. Not sure what the impact is of raising the production level.

 

[momeNt]

Flawed again. A more accurate analogy would be the home inspector didn't have the manpower himself to accomplish every inspection and some homes only received a cursory visual. More money means hiring more manpower which allows for more detailed inspections of every home.

All he had to do was check ONE THING! It doesn't matter how many vehicles were impacted, it would take 1 on-road test when a car's emissions paperwork is submitted to the EPA for approval.

Now they are proposing testing every vehicle with onroad testing. As opposed to on road tests randomly after the initial approval? It's asinine.

 

[Brian Stirling]

Well it didn't take long ... I've now seen two separate TV ads from law firms looking to drum up business with the VW deal. Not that this was surprising, or unwarranted.


Brian

 

[natto fire]

The thing is, I'm pretty sure no one is going to jump from a Jetta to a Tesla, you know? And they're not going to jump to a Leaf or Spark either...82-mile EV range vs. the 700+ mile range on their Passat TDI. So pretty much, zero impact I'd imagine. I have a lot of buddies with VW's who are diehard to the brand & none of them really care about the emissions things. They like their cars, period, and this hasn't changed their views much, in general.

That is a good point, and I voiced my skepticism at TMC. There was even talk about it influencing diesel fuel consumption. Obviously, diesel cars use a paltry amount of fuel compared to trucks, ships, generators, and agricultural equipment. I posted as such.

On your second point, my uncle has two Jettas, and is constantly working on them. He is always talking how much he likes them. One is a VR6, and the other a 2L 4 banger. He is constantly working on them, and I have had a distaste for VW since trying to help track down an electrical problem in my friend's Scirocco. I like the way they do some things, but their electrical systems leave much to be desired.

The EPA is probably used to being vilified, especially by politicians that wish to defund it. They can be draconian at times, but industrialized China is a good example of why they exist. Left to their own devices, a corporation will most likely put profit above everything else. I personally am glad the EPA exists, and is more important to keep funding than the war on drugs and the numerous wars in the middle east. It would be nice if the fines the EPA levied kept them more solvent, but they will never get to BLM status anyways.

Well it didn't take long ... I've now seen two separate TV ads from law firms looking to drum up business with the VW deal. Not that this was surprising, or unwarranted.


Brian

Move aside ambulance chasers, the particulate chasers are on the scene!

 

[who?]

They had the goal of making cars that were fun to drive and passed emissions tests and they achieved these goals. The second goal should have been about acceptable emissions all the time instead of the tests.

 

[ALIVE]

Not that I know, because I don't. But I wonder how much water will be contaminated as a result of lithium mining each year if every vehicle produced was an electric vehicle. The environment may not be able to support mainstream adoption. At least not for battery EV.

and extracting oil is good for the environment ???
yes lets demonizing electric cars because they need something to be mined
but with regular cars that also needs mining oh id does not matter because we do it already???

electric cars can benefit the life in cities by
1. no noise pollution
2. no emissions better air quality for all
3. no heat pollution from the engine cooler summers

and yes mining will have bad effect on the environment as the extracting of the oil

but what is important is this instead of polluting our cities we live in we can pollute an area that we are not living in.

and yes with the limitations of range it is not for everyone
but really what % of people is actually driving that much anyway??

also 1 more advantage of electric car is that we can generate the electricity form renewable sources so running the car will be friendly for the environment.

 

[ALIVE]

The power grid is already bending under the load every summer and winter.

is not capitalism a bitch
you mean the companies only care to max their profits and they neglect that they need to have a grid to transfer and sell the good which is eccentricity ?

but capitalism is good
you need to trust the companies
they work for you
not for numbers in paper that means nothing

if not expanding the grid is the way to go then its the way to go
then you the consumer need to consume les and pay more
SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE CAPITALISM WORLD

 

[ALIVE]

All he had to do was check ONE THING! It doesn't matter how many vehicles were impacted, it would take 1 on-road test when a car's emissions paperwork is submitted to the EPA for approval.

Now they are proposing testing every vehicle with onroad testing. As opposed to on road tests randomly after the initial approval? It's asinine.

fire all the people in EPA and close it down
they had 1 job to inspect cars and they failed

so after this many years no random inspection saw the problem?'

another agency found it out and EPA is still around for what???

FIRE THEM ALL. close EPA it is useless anyway

 

[mzkhadir]

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-carb-rejects-vw-diesel-plan-20160112-story.html

CA rejects VW Diesel plan

 

[JoeBleed]

ugh, CA thinks Electric cars are the answer... why am in not surprised.

 

[sdifox]

ugh, CA thinks Electric cars are the answer... why am in not surprised.

you think VW was in the right?

 

[JoeBleed]

you think VW was in the right?

No, i think they can do better. i think the US restrictions for Diesel are excessive too quickly, but the tested results this range of TDIs got were/are too high. They can and should do better.

Electric cars are not the answer until we have a power storage medium 300-400% better than current batteries.

On a side note, Ethanol is also not the answer. I hate having to use 10% ethanol in my truck when i drive it. The price of non ethanol gas around me is 40-50 cents more per gallon. This is likely due to government subsidizing ethanol use in gasoline. Engines aren't designed to take advantage of ethanol. You need higher compression with higher ethanol content. Even then i'm not sure it would make up for the mileage hit you see in older gas cars running 10% ethanol gas.

 

[sdifox]

No, i think they can do better. i think the US restrictions for Diesel are excessive too quickly, but the tested results this range of TDIs got were/are too high. They can and should do better.

Electric cars are not the answer until we have a power storage medium 300-400% better than current batteries.

On a side note, Ethanol is also not the answer. I hate having to use 10% ethanol in my truck when i drive it. The price of non ethanol gas around me is 40-50 cents more per gallon. This is likely due to government subsidizing ethanol use in gasoline. Engines aren't designed to take advantage of ethanol. You need higher compression with higher ethanol content. Even then i'm not sure it would make up for the mileage hit you see in older gas cars running 10% ethanol gas.

Ethanol is stupid. Fucking corn lobby. VW cheated and should pay a very price on this. Cali not agreeing to a vague plan is the correct response.

 

[JoeBleed]

Cali not agreeing to a vague plan is the correct response.

I agree, but at the tail end of that article, a comment was made about putting more electric cars in the hands of Cali residents or something like that. That's what my comment was about. I'm not sure what VW's supposed plan is yet either.

edit: fixed quote tag i broke.

 

[JulesMaximus]

So did every car manufacturer install cheat devices? Because I'm pretty sure that every single car needs brakes to stop, or a wall, or sufficient space to decelerate.

The flawed assumption in his analogy is that the EPA is REQUIRED in order to stop car manufacturers from violating emissions violations. The EPA was not even the organization that discovered the emissions violations.

The EPA will capitalize on what is essentially a black swan event and use it to justify the expansion of their agency. For something they did not discover themselves, and how it was discovered was somebody with the means to test vehicles simply asked the question, how is their performance to emissions ratio so high? It takes more funding to ask that question?

By replacing the brakes, or fixing the pressure, do you mean maybe to put a new agency in charge of protecting the environment?

Without the EPA we would have corporations dumping toxic waste into our drinking water, motor vehicles completely unregulated and spewing out smog the likes of which we haven't seen since the mid 1970s. Go talk to someone who grew up in Los Angeles during the 70s and ask them if they like breathing cleaner air today despite having twice as many cars on the road.

Your argument that the organization needs to be defunded because of this is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[master_shake_]

Without the EPA we would have corporations dumping toxic waste into our drinking water, motor vehicles completely unregulated and spewing out smog the likes of which we haven't seen since the mid 1970s. Go talk to someone who grew up in Los Angeles during the 70s and ask them if they like breathing cleaner air today despite having twice as many cars on the road.

Your argument that the organization needs to be defunded because of this is absolutely ridiculous.

this.

remember when that one group spilled all that toxic waste in to the colorado river?

without the EPA no one would even have known it was there.