Vertex texture fetch and the R520

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
From the other thread:

What in gods name are you raving on about now BFG10K??? Do you have the first clue about *anything* that you post?

Vertex texture filtering is entirely seperate from normal texturing on nVidia hardware.

nVidia's vertex texturing cannot run any other mode of filtering other than point filtering natively. nVidia states you can do bilinear if you implement it yourself on the vertex shader, discourages the use of trilinear due to performance reasons and make no mention that it's possible to do AF.

The presence (or absence) of AF does not mean a thing

If AF is causing a performance hit then VT is either not enabled or the benchmark runs over sections that are not running VT (such as land). Either that or the developer has implemented AF on the vertex shader which I doubt as the performance hit would be massive on top of an already slow VT.

You are correct BFG0K. The vertex texturer is limited to point sampling only.

If you give it a pre filtered texture, it will point sample that texture.

Keep in mind that you are filtering a mesh of vertices here, and and AF filtered ground texture can still be overlaid onto that mesh (unless you like playing wireframe rendered games).

 

[BenSkywalker]

but I'm sure I look like I'm defending ATI a bit much, too, being so contrary.

To say the least Pete. Where were you for the hundreds of posts flame fest at nVidia for the PVP debacle? What about the tens of thousands of posts about them 'cheating' in all of the benches back in the NV30 days? ATi does nearly the same thing and we tend to see one or two threads about it and that's it. Rollo may be quite vocal, but I would say he fails to match a run of the mill ATi loyalist- and we have plenty of those around.

 

[Sc4freak]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

but I'm sure I look like I'm defending ATI a bit much, too, being so contrary.

To say the least Pete. Where were you for the hundreds of posts flame fest at nVidia for the PVP debacle? What about the tens of thousands of posts about them 'cheating' in all of the benches back in the NV30 days? ATi does nearly the same thing and we tend to see one or two threads about it and that's it. Rollo may be quite vocal, but I would say he fails to match a run of the mill ATi loyalist- and we have plenty of those around.

So who would you say is ATI's Rollo?

And don't say "Everyone" or something similar.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Sc4freak
So who would you say is ATI's Rollo?

M0rph, Ackmed & nts just to name a few.

If not for them, I would have very few posts in this topic.

Although Rollo usually has some links or something to base his posts on.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: BlingBlingArsch
U know what, Trollo, besides all the bashin in your stupid threads (which i highly enjoy, cuz i think u deserve it) there are still alot of informative postings by smart ppl who know how to evaluate the info ur coming up with. and this is why i have to say: stay the troll that u are, it helps to shed light on the issues, indirectly though

There are people like me who DO something for the forum, post news, benches, inside info occasionally- and yes, I'm wrong from time to time.

For example:
The Xbit article did not say VTF was not enabled, and they did say it's the reason Pacific Fighters sucks on X1800s. So I didn't know more than XBit to be able to contradict them. Oh well. At least I'm buying the game and trying to get to the bottom of the situation.

Then we have folk like YOU, who contribute nothing but fanboy claptrap.

You and others like you take this stuff way too seriously, and look foolish doing so. The video forum is for the exchange of ideas and news about video hardware, not ill-raised children's opinions of other posters.

 

[Hacp]

Wow old post. Can't beleive it was revived. Bush sucks.

 

[TecHNooB]

Originally posted by: Hacp
Wow old post. Can't beleive it was revived. Bush sucks.

 

[imported_Noob]

Originally posted by: RolloInteresting.

Although I can link you to posts of video card OEMs stating in no uncertain terms that OCing and modding damages cards and voids warranties, as well as numerous posts of people who destroyed their cards OCing, you think it would be a better use of the forum to discuss these activities that leave so many of us with the unfortunate choice of being out $100s or committing warranty fraud.

If people are going to OC their cards they are going to OC their cards. Why not help people do it as "safely" and risk free as possible. It's like some parents philosophy to their kids that if they want to smoke a joint or get drunk, why not do it in the safety of your own home.

It's nobody elses business what somebody does with their own card just so long as people don't complain if their card fries or complain about the warranty policy.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Noob

Originally posted by: RolloInteresting.

Although I can link you to posts of video card OEMs stating in no uncertain terms that OCing and modding damages cards and voids warranties, as well as numerous posts of people who destroyed their cards OCing, you think it would be a better use of the forum to discuss these activities that leave so many of us with the unfortunate choice of being out $100s or committing warranty fraud.

If people are going to OC their cards they are going to OC their cards. Why not help people do it as "safely" and risk free as possible. It's like some parents philosophy to their kids that if they want to smoke a joint or get drunk, why not do it in the safety of your own home.

It's nobody elses business what somebody does with their own card just so long as people don't complain if their card fries or complain about the warranty policy.

Since you're a NooB, I'll help you. This thread is about VTF, not OCing and warranty violations? You are whats known as "off topic".

Start your own thread about kids with bad parents and warranties if you think someone wants to discuss it?

 

[imported_Noob]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
Just because you didn't post something verbatim doesn't mean that people are idiots and can't draw implications out of your posts. It's not a stretch, Rollo, that between the lines on most of your posts is an air of superiority. Why do you think so many people flock to your threads? Consider the possibilities...

I think it's sad when people make assumptions about other people's thoughts and motivations when they have no possible way of knowing them.

I think it's sadder yet when people use their assumptions about a persons motivations to draw a negative characterization about the person they don't even know.

Well I can tell you from what I have seen Rollo that you always manage to post flaws that ATI has and little to non-pro ATI threads. The only good thread about ATI that I have seen you posted is about their AVIVO. You don't seem like the type fo forum member that would say that Nvida took their 6600 GT 256mb's of the market because they could outperform a 6800 Ultra and cost 30% less, then they suddenly reappeared on the market when the 7800 line came out. And I would think many other people would agree on this (as not to be attacked on wording). The fact is most of your posts are pro-Nvidia/anti-ATI and rarely any pro-ATI/anti-Nvidia. I don't see you making posts to disect any little flaw in Nvidia cards or Nvidia propaganda.

And tell me if I am wrong on this. But I have heard that you traded/sold your 9800 Pro for a 5800. Now somebody as knowledgable on video cards such as yourself would know that there is no benefit in that rather then extra cash in your pocket for the consequence for lower performance. If this is true, please tell me the motive behind doing that. Because that seems like a fanboy action.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Noob

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
Just because you didn't post something verbatim doesn't mean that people are idiots and can't draw implications out of your posts. It's not a stretch, Rollo, that between the lines on most of your posts is an air of superiority. Why do you think so many people flock to your threads? Consider the possibilities...

I think it's sad when people make assumptions about other people's thoughts and motivations when they have no possible way of knowing them.

I think it's sadder yet when people use their assumptions about a persons motivations to draw a negative characterization about the person they don't even know.

Well I can tell you from what I have seen Rollo that you always manage to post flaws that ATI has and little to non-pro ATI threads. The only good thread about ATI that I have seen you posted is about their AVIVO. You don't seem like the type fo forum member that would say that Nvida took their 6600 GT 256mb's of the market because they could outperform a 6800 Ultra and cost 30% less, then they suddenly reappeared on the market when the 7800 line came out. And I would think many other people would agree on this (as not to be attacked on wording). The fact is most of your posts are pro-Nvidia/anti-ATI and rarely any pro-ATI/anti-Nvidia. I don't see you making posts to disect any little flaw in Nvidia cards or Nvidia propaganda.

And tell me if I am wrong on this. But I have heard that you traded/sold your 9800 Pro for a 5800. Now somebody as knowledgable on video cards such as yourself would know that there is no benefit in that rather then extra cash in your pocket for the consequence for lower performance. If this is true, please tell me the motive behind doing that. Because that seems like a fanboy action.

Since you're a NooB, I'll mention that you are off topic yet again.

I doubt many people care what you think of my posting style or motives, I'd for sure be among them. :wine:

 

[imported_Noob]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Noob

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
Just because you didn't post something verbatim doesn't mean that people are idiots and can't draw implications out of your posts. It's not a stretch, Rollo, that between the lines on most of your posts is an air of superiority. Why do you think so many people flock to your threads? Consider the possibilities...

I think it's sad when people make assumptions about other people's thoughts and motivations when they have no possible way of knowing them.

I think it's sadder yet when people use their assumptions about a persons motivations to draw a negative characterization about the person they don't even know.

Well I can tell you from what I have seen Rollo that you always manage to post flaws that ATI has and little to non-pro ATI threads. The only good thread about ATI that I have seen you posted is about their AVIVO. You don't seem like the type fo forum member that would say that Nvida took their 6600 GT 256mb's of the market because they could outperform a 6800 Ultra and cost 30% less, then they suddenly reappeared on the market when the 7800 line came out. And I would think many other people would agree on this (as not to be attacked on wording). The fact is most of your posts are pro-Nvidia/anti-ATI and rarely any pro-ATI/anti-Nvidia. I don't see you making posts to disect any little flaw in Nvidia cards or Nvidia propaganda.

And tell me if I am wrong on this. But I have heard that you traded/sold your 9800 Pro for a 5800. Now somebody as knowledgable on video cards such as yourself would know that there is no benefit in that rather then extra cash in your pocket for the consequence for lower performance. If this is true, please tell me the motive behind doing that. Because that seems like a fanboy action.

Since you're a NooB, I'll mention that you are off topic yet again.

I doubt many people care what you think of my posting style or motives, I'd for sure be among them. :wine:

First of all you failed to answer the question.

Second of all many people see what I do, and that's not an assumption or a guess, it's a fact that many people state it. And for the "I doubt many people care what you think of my posting style or motives" comment, well many people are bringing it up so from the looks of it, a lot of people do care.

And my opinion on your method of posting is not an opinion, it's a fact. A fact that many people do see. The only thing that is an opinion is guessing your motive. But people can see the implications in your post. People aren't idiots, Rollo. And when people point this out (as many people have) you start splitting hairs on the wording or you come back with your built-in self defense reply that "the information I state is valualbe". We know the information is valuable Rollo! The problem we have is the blatant implications you make and the way in which you state the information. Nobody has debated the information you have provided and are not going to because THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE. The issue is your lack of pro-ATI/anti-Nvidia posts and your overwhelming amount of pro-Nvidia/anti-ATI posts. And that's a fact, Rollo. A fact that many of us clearly see. And we both know that both companies have providied great cards. Both companies have issues and use propaganda. But you are very oen sided in your posts. I don't care about your motive. I'm stating the facts in your posting methods.

And I should also remind you that you started the bashing on this disscusion between us. I stated my thoughts in a non-bashing and diplomatic manner and clearly implied that they were only my thoughts and not facts by the use of bolding words and wording is in proper manners. So if "I doubt many people care what you think of my posting style or motives" comment is what your defense has been dominished to, then it's very evident that something has been pointed out which you don't like. That comment is the parallel of a child pointing out the injustice and unfairness that the parents have done to them and their best comment is "well it's my house and I make the rules". Which is what all parents say when they are evidently wrong. It the built-in self defense mechanism.

EDIT: Let's not forget the whole slew of ATI driver issues with certain games that were clearly just driver issues in which both companies are plagued with. I have no clue what your motive behind that was but if it wasn't out of fanboism please tell me.

 

[imported_Noob]

Originally posted by: sxr7171

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Cooler
Rollo until we see some hard benchmarks to prove theis even matters there is no use talking about it. It is like talking about Bigfoot. This is also not part of MS 3.0 shader standard so if they do it differently it does not mean that it is not 3.0. Please Don?t go after ATI on this. The only thing you could go after r520 and its family is just being a little late. You don?t see people going after 7800 because it dose not have a rig memory config like ATI new cards. This fourm needs to go back to OC and video card modding like it used to be an not these ATI vs Nvida threads it just brings the whole fourm down.

Interesting.

Although I can link you to posts of video card OEMs stating in no uncertain terms that OCing and modding damages cards and voids warranties, as well as numerous posts of people who destroyed their cards OCing, you think it would be a better use of the forum to discuss these activities that leave so many of us with the unfortunate choice of being out $100s or committing warranty fraud.

Get a life. What people do with their video cards is their own business.

Right to the point :thumbsup:. But of course we do need Rollo taking that comment to the extreme with a life story. Yet another diversionary tactic. And there is no doubt that Rollo will only comment on this post that I have just made instead of the one directly above it which states the real issues. Nor will he answer my question that he supposedly traded/sold his 9800 Pro for a 5800 (which he has failed to answer once already).

 

[RobertR1]

Anybody see "The Office" episode for tonight? I have it recorded on the DVR but just want some fair and balanced opinions before I proceed!

 

[imported_Noob]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Noob

Originally posted by: RolloInteresting.

Although I can link you to posts of video card OEMs stating in no uncertain terms that OCing and modding damages cards and voids warranties, as well as numerous posts of people who destroyed their cards OCing, you think it would be a better use of the forum to discuss these activities that leave so many of us with the unfortunate choice of being out $100s or committing warranty fraud.

If people are going to OC their cards they are going to OC their cards. Why not help people do it as "safely" and risk free as possible. It's like some parents philosophy to their kids that if they want to smoke a joint or get drunk, why not do it in the safety of your own home.

It's nobody elses business what somebody does with their own card just so long as people don't complain if their card fries or complain about the warranty policy.

Since you're a NooB, I'll help you. This thread is about VTF, not OCing and warranty violations? You are whats known as "off topic".

Start your own thread about kids with bad parents and warranties if you think someone wants to discuss it?

I didn't start the subject. It came up and I replied to it. So how am I off topic? You started the whole issue on why people should not OC in reply to Cooler's opinion on how the forums should be like they were before. So who started what is called "Off Topic"?

And BTW, people aren't idiots, they know the consequences for OCing if the worst was to happen. And it's not your place to state or imply what people should or should not do with their video cards. What business is of yours what others do with their hardware? Well, in case you are having a bit of a moral dilemma let me answer the question for you: It's non of your business.

And please don't come back with a bleeding heart/ill-fated defense on how I flamed you. You started the flaming between us a few posts up.

 

[imported_Noob]

Originally posted by: RobertR1
Anybody see "The Office" episode for tonight? I have it recorded on the DVR but just want some fair and balanced opinions before I proceed!

I wish everyone had your attitude Robert. It would make for a nice forum.

 

[Pete]

Ben, I don't think that gives anyone the excuse to act like a generic "loyalist," mainly b/c I'm a lazy bastard and I don't like reading through five threads simultaneously discussing the same subject. Re-reading my posts, I objected to this thread b/c it was a repeat of another thread on the same topic that was on the Video forum frontpage when this thread was created. IIRC, I went after Rollo in this particular thread for that reason and b/c he had a string of threads singling ATI out without much beyond a link and snippy words in the OP.

I'm not sure this topic is the same as either PVP or 3DM03, but that's secondary.

In this case, yeah, I guess I'm attacking the messenger for the message. I don't think other ppl's actions excuse his, just as he doesn't think ppl RMAing OCed cards is an excuse for others to do the same. He could just as easily have posted this specific thread in the other one on the same subject that was updated a couple hours before this one was created. If that makes me an ATI defender, fine, but I don't think I've reached instigator level yet. I welcome you to compare this thread's OP with RajunCajun's on the same topic (see the last link in my first post here), though. Maybe you'll see why I reacted like I did here.

I was also attacking the mesenger's interpretation of the message. Yeah, a pox on ATI for holding back on VTF as Ive said repeatedly, but it seems to me the onus is on MS's SM3 compliance tests. That, and we're literally talking about 3D waves, which appears to be about as useful as geometry instancing in most games--somewhat ironically, apparently in that case it was an MS technicality that denied this feature to devs, tho I don't know how late ATI was in revealing it to devs. (I wonder if ATI could approximate those nice water effects with the parallax occlusion mapping they showed off in their Toy Shop demo? Even without it, surely the water could look better than NV portrays it w/o VTF? For instance, AoE3's water looks nice courtesy of PS3, and PS3 is something the X1k-series has in full according to every review out there.)

Speaking of the messenger's interpretation, I finally bothered to read Xbit's PF performance comment. How come no one else noticed how shockingly P) Rollo flubbed their "explanation?" Maybe you can square "X1800 lack of vertex texturing kills Pacific Fighters performance" with Xbit's blurb:

Graphics processors from the RADEON X1000 series do not support vertex texturing, but flight sims from Maddox Games do use this feature. That?s why the Shader Model 3.0 rendering mode of Pacific Fighters does not work with RADEON X1000 cards. Yet even working in the game?s Shader Model 2.0 mode, the Sapphire RADEON X1800 XL is by far slower than the GeForce 7800 GT. High fps rate is no less important for a flight sim than for a shooter with first-person view. It means that this game won?t be playable on the reviewed graphics card at high resolutions.

It's not vertex texturing, presumably an SM3-path feature missing from the X1k-series that's limiting ATI's performance in that title if ATI cards don't render the same effects as NV cards. Something seems a little amiss if the XL and XT appear to be bottlenecked at the same speed, some 15fps lower than even a 7800GT at just 10x7 0x0. I wonder if texture filtering is ATI's problem, as you see ATI falls down a ramp twice as steep as NV when you apply AF to both the previous (X700) and current (X1800XT) generations (more cards here).

But I don't think a million of these petty PR nitpick threads affect actual forum hardware recommendations. I dunno, Ben, this is an odd thread to weigh in with even-handedness. Maybe your post is a comment on my posts in the just-locked thread, but I don't see it.

Edit: Thank HEAVEN this thread wasn't locked while I composed this, otherwise things would have gotten uglier.

 

[nRollo]

Gee, Pete, excuse me for breathing.

I thought running the game in SM3 with VTF might be faster than running it in SM2 without, I've gotten some sizable speed gains from geometry instancing in the past.
Seem like a reasonable question to me?

I never said SM2 had VTF, so don't put words in my mouth.

One thing is for sure PF runs like ass on ATI cards, so whether it's poor GL drivers or not being able to run in SM3 and take advantage of geometry instancing, it's noteworthy to people who play flight sims?

You're just turning into another person who believes they're in some non existent struggle, with a "duty" to call out the "Anti-ATI Infidels", which is pretty sad given what you used to be.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Noob
First of all you failed to answer the question.

EDIT: Let's not forget the whole slew of ATI driver issues with certain games that were clearly just driver issues in which both companies are plagued with. I have no clue what your motive behind that was but if it wasn't out of fanboism please tell me.

Have you ever considered:

1. I don't care what you think of my posts or motives. I didn't answer your questions much in the same manner I wouldn't reply to a panhandler on the street, or a telemarketer.

2. Your questions are off topic. I created this thread to discuss ATI leaving a SM3 feature off the R520 when they claimed it would have it originally. When you address that, and only that, in this thread, I will reply to you.

 

[M0RPH]

Originally posted by: Rollo

One thing is for sure PF runs like ass on ATI cards, so whether it's poor GL drivers or not being able to run in SM3 and take advantage of geometry instancing, it's noteworthy to people who play flight sims?

Yes, PF runs better on Nv cards than ATi. And certain other games run better on ATI than Nv. Thanks for the news story. And thanks for your neverending crusade to keep us informed about the weaknesses of ATi.

BTW, looks like the X1800XT is up to 44% faster then the 7800GTX in F.E.A.R. with all the eye candy. Maybe I should go start a thread and let everyone know. What ya think?

 

[John Reynolds]

Originally posted by: Rollo
I thought running the game in SM3 with VTF might be faster than running it in SM2 without, I've gotten some sizable speed gains from geometry instancing in the past.
Seem like a reasonable question to me?

Once again, for the record, there is no SM3 path for Pacific Fighters. It's like saying since the X1800s render everything at FP32 internally then every game played on a X1800 is a SM3 title.

 

[TecHNooB]

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: Rollo

One thing is for sure PF runs like ass on ATI cards, so whether it's poor GL drivers or not being able to run in SM3 and take advantage of geometry instancing, it's noteworthy to people who play flight sims?

Yes, PF runs better on Nv cards than ATi. And certain other games run better on ATI than Nv. Thanks for the news story. And thanks for your neverending crusade to keep us informed about the weaknesses of ATi.

BTW, looks like the X1800XT is up to 44% faster then the 7800GTX in F.E.A.R. with all the eye candy. Maybe I should go start a thread and let everyone know. What ya think?

Do it...!

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: xtknight
If devlopers had only ATIs "done right" SM3 to rely upon, there would be no SM3 games until sometime in 2007. The X1800XT looks like a good SM3 card so far, but when you're playing U3 and UT2007 on it next year and marvelling at the graphics, try to remember they wouldn't exist without the nV40 and SLI and not post "Haha- my X1800XT ownz joo all!"

However since UT2K4 has nVidia on the splash screen, I imagine U3 has some help from nVidia as well.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Rollo
You're just turning into another person who believes they're in some non existent struggle, with a "duty" to call out the "Anti-ATI Infidels", which is pretty sad given what you used to be.

You're calling out Pete? He's probably the most neutral and level-headed person in the Video Forums. Maybe that should be a clue that you've gone WAY over the edge.

The saddest thing here is that you actually used to provide benchmarks/support. Now all you do is post inconsequential anti-ATI "news".

 

[Avalon]

I'd rather be reading a discussion about VTF as a feature than a thread about whether or not ATI's PR about supporting it is incorrect or not.

Ban the words "ATI" and "Nvidia", and we might have our forum back. Feature discussion, driver updates, OC'ing, and modding would be a much better read than all this arguing.