Vatican proposes 'stunning' shift on gays, lesbians

[Atreus21]

Here we go again; yes it was a priest. The CC, for the most part, controlled the money, the learning institutions, the educational process and who could receive education for several centuries; of course a lot of theories and processes were first postulated and proposed by priests.

This is clever.

So we manage to begrudge the CC their contributions to science because they are just bi-products to their otherwise nefarious objectives.

 

[Retro Rob]

Here we go again; yes it was a priest. The CC, for the most part, controlled the money, the learning institutions, the educational process and who could receive education for several centuries; of course a lot of theories and processes were first postulated and proposed by priests.

I think its clear that you simply refuse to give credit where it is due.

You're obviously prejudiced against anyone other than a non-religious scientist making any contributions to science.

I'm glad he's bringing this back up, to out bigots.

 

[Retro Rob]

This is clever.

So we manage to begrudge the CC their contributions to science because they are just bi-products to their otherwise nefarious objectives.

Alzan just refuses to give credit to them without some caveat.

 

[Victorian Gray]

If this is how you go about procuring your information, you are a fool.

I can google "Obama + brith coverup" and get all I need to confirm a bias too.

Money laundering:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertw...ndering-tax-charges-ensnare-flashy-monsignor/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/12/vatican-finance-report-card_n_4433039.html

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2353687/Unholy-See-iniquity-Vatican-Bank.html

Child molestation and coverups, you need more info that has been public knowledge for decades with more information coming out almost daily?

 

[Retro Rob]

Money laundering:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertw...ndering-tax-charges-ensnare-flashy-monsignor/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/12/vatican-finance-report-card_n_4433039.html

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2353687/Unholy-See-iniquity-Vatican-Bank.html

Child molestation and coverups, you need more info that has been public knowledge for decades with more information coming out almost daily?

There is a vast difference, in my opinion, between an organization
that has criminals in it, and a "criminal organization".

In fact, note what a criminal organization is:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime

 

[disappoint]

What laws have been broken? Give me a list please.

I agree with the moral principle behind it, but if they're not breaking any laws, then they cannot be a "criminal organization".

It sounds like I'm defending the CC, but I am not -- what I am defending is how "criminal organization" is being inappropriately applied.

Oh don't worry about that. We are well aware the Watchtower Society scopesperson (get it? spokesperson, scopesperson...watchtower?) isn't defending the CC. You're just worried they'll call your organization criminal next aren't you? The informed already have, and you didn't want to recruit them anyway just like the fox didn't want those grapes anyway. (Aesop's Fables - The Fox and the Grapes)

 

[Retro Rob]

Oh don't worry, I cant prove the CC or WT are criminal organizations, but as an atheist, I don't need facts anyway...but slander's ok as long as I get the wurd out...

Pretty much sums up that discussion.

Oh, and neither do I belong to the Watchtower Society, nor a Protestant Church, nor Presbyterian church, nor Muslim, nor Baptist.

I don't need an excuse to ask for facts.

 

[alzan]

This is clever.

So we manage to begrudge the CC their contributions to science because they are just bi-products to their otherwise nefarious objectives.

It's wrong to discuss all aspects (good and bad) of how large institutions and the people within them conducted their business? I thought that was what we did in all ATPN threads.

Not begrudgement, recognition of fact.

Your words, not mine

I think its clear that you simply refuse to give credit where it is due.

You're obviously prejudiced against anyone other than a non-religious scientist making any contributions to science.

I'm glad he's bringing this back up, to out bigots.

I simply recognize the fact that the actions and words of people and organizations are driven by many factors; altruism, charity, power, control, etc.

You're obviously jumping to conclusions.

Actually it was Atreus that brought it up, post #73

 

[Retro Rob]

I simply recognize the fact that the actions and words of people and organizations are driven by many factors; altruism, charity, power, control, etc.

No you're not. You simply are witholding credit. What you're saying is that the only reason why a Catholic first advanced the Big Bang is because only catholics were doing the work, NOT becasue they had a sincere interest in learning about the cosmos.

Actually it was Atreus that brought it up, post #73

That's who I was referring to.

 

[alzan]

No you're not. You simply are witholding credit. What you're saying is that the only reason why a Catholic first advanced the Big Bang is because only catholics were doing the work, NOT becasue they had a sincere interest in learning about the cosmos.

That's who I was referring to.

How am I withholding credit when I acknowledged it was a priest in my opening response to Atreus?

You seem to want to attribute intentions that are not evident when replying to atheists or agnostics in these types of threads.

I question and acknowledge the motives of all institutions; government, private, secular, religious, etc. If this were a thread about say scholarships awarded by a private firm I would want to know and acknowledge what conditions students would have to meet before, during and after scholarships were awarded and any history of past programs from this firm.

 

[Subyman]

Translation:

"Gay money spends the same as straight money."

 

[BudAshes]

There is a vast difference, in my opinion, between an organization
that has criminals in it, and a "criminal organization".

In fact, note what a criminal organization is:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime

I said essentially a criminal organization because they use abuse and threats in order to make people give them money in return for absolutely nothing besides "protection" in the afterlife. In the mean time they will let some of the nastiest people around abuse your children and then try to protect these abusers after the fact. They will also tell you to not use birth control so that you will spawn more children they can manipulate and abuse.

 

[kage69]

There is a vast difference, in my opinion, between an organization
that has criminals in it, and a "criminal organization".

In fact, note what a criminal organization is:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime

Criminals being sheltered from justice and given positions of authority within the same organization makes that organization complicit in criminal activity as far as I'm concerned.

I think people should note that Bernard Law, Archbishop and chief pedophile protector of Boston, is a fugitive from justice yet somehow was one of the archbishops in conclave voting to select the next Pope in 2005! He still sits on a number of Vatican committees IRC, one of which selects bishops!

That's great some people in Rome are starting to get with the times, but they have bigger fish to fry if they want to dispense their opinion and have people take them seriously (who aren't already devout cats anyway). Why would rational adults take cues from an organization so steeped in a history of widespread abuse? An organization that feels entitled to have criminal perverts and their wards held above the law no less?

Why would anyone in their right mine listen to those who believe condoms are scarier than AIDS ? I find their mention of contraception in the article somewhat less than stunning, not to mention unsurprising. And they wonder why people are having less and less interest in church...

 

[Retro Rob]

That's great some people in Rome are starting to get with the times, but they have bigger fish to fry if they want to dispense their opinion and have people take them seriously (who aren't already devout cats anyway). Why would rational adults take cues from an organization so steeped in a history of widespread abuse? An organization that feels entitled to have criminal perverts and their wards held above the law no less?

Not...really.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/14/world/vatican-backtrack-gays/index.html?iref=allsearch

At any rate, I'd personally be more on board if they "got with the times" 10 years ago when gay marriage was not at all welcomed...this is either a stunning coincidence, or this was planned because of the political climate.

I think we both know the answer to that.

 

[blankslate]

From what I've heard on the radio streams I listen to this may be getting walked back to some degree.



...

 

[lopri]

It apparently did not work out. Oh well, next time.

Vatican meeting on family walks back liberal language on gay couples, divorce

 

[Pulsar]

It apparently did not work out. Oh well, next time.

Vatican meeting on family walks back liberal language on gay couples, divorce

A bunch of 60, 70, and 80 year olds debating about the future direction of the Church. Was there really any chance at all that they'd be flexible in their thinking?

It will take another 20 years before the current middle-age folks who have a reasonable view on homosexuality make it to arch bishops before any real change can be made.

 

[disappoint]

It will take another 20 years before the current middle-age folks who have a reasonable view on homosexuality make it to arch bishops before any real change can be made.

What makes you think they have a reasonable view? Just because of their age?

 

[sandorski]

The Old Testament explicitly condemns involuntary slavery .

A half-truth at best, a lie at worst.

 

[sportage]

I don't understand how conforming to some Catholic rule, be ye a gay person or whatever, should be anyones goal?
The gay's are far too good of people and community for the Catholic church.
When the Catholic church opens their arms to the gay community, that is the time for the gay community to panic, and run like hell.
Arrogant religious bastards....

 

[moonbogg]

Catholic church position 1) "No gay marriage. No sex before marriage. No masturbation" = gays can never use their private parts.

Catholic church position 2) "Hold my Jesus wafer while I fuck this kid in his ass"

 

[alzan]

Regardless of how they've "walked back" their comments somewhat, I hold out that it's hopeful that some of the church heirarchy were willing to say it in the first place. The church may move slowly but it is more willing these days to admit it's wrongful stance on issues over which it has no purview and no control.

 

[moonbogg]

Regardless of how they've "walked back" their comments somewhat, I hold out that it's hopeful that some of the church heirarchy were willing to say it in the first place. The church may move slowly but it is more willing these days to admit it's wrongful stance on issues over which it has no purview and no control.

The church is a business. They only give as much as necessary to survive. I bet most of those guys don't believe in the shit they preach. They either change with the times or fade out.
Think of how cruel their ideas are toward gays. They literally want gays to NEVER use their private parts for anything but urination. Do you know how cruel that is? Fuck these people, all of them. They are not only useless, but dangerous. They damage life and liberty and they need to go.

 

[alzan]

The church is a business. They only give as much as necessary to survive. I bet most of those guys don't believe in the shit they preach. They either change with the times or fade out.
Think of how cruel their ideas are toward gays. They literally want gays to NEVER use their private parts for anything but urination. Do you know how cruel that is? Fuck these people, all of them. They are not only useless, but dangerous. They damage life and liberty and they need to go.

I'm sure there's some of that although it is more than just a business. As far as what they believe I think it's the larger majority that truly believe, they just get wrapped up in the dogma and internal politics of the church.

They're very strictured towards their priests, nuns and monks; it's not just towards the laity, homosexual or otherwise. Servitude to man or g-d demands a massive shift in attitude and outlook.

I understand what you're saying but I think individuals need to find their own path; if the RCC can't or won't fulfill your needs then you look to the UCC, Anglican church, Unitarian, etc. Most adherents or would-be adherents know that it's the function of the church to guide.

 

[Retro Rob]

The church is a business. They only give as much as necessary to survive. I bet most of those guys don't believe in the shit they preach. They either change with the times or fade out.
Think of how cruel their ideas are toward gays. They literally want gays to NEVER use their private parts for anything but urination. Do you know how cruel that is? Fuck these people, all of them. They are not only useless, but dangerous. They damage life and liberty and they need to go.

You don't like it, change your religion. They have every right, under the Constitution, to make certain rules for their adherents.

You simply need to learn to tolerate that and show the same tolernace you want from them.