Vatican proposes 'stunning' shift on gays, lesbians

[TechBoyJK]

You welcome people, but they cannot officailly join unless they've demonstrated that they've changed.

If an ISIS soldier was still looking to kill Christians, would you welcome him with "open arms", therefore endangering your congregation?

The "welcome them" argument is fallacious on its face, and an ear-tickling thing to say.

I'd say anybody could join that wanted to be there.

And no, if the ISIS soldier was still on the hunt, I'd call the cops and/or shoot him in defense. Not the same situation. My point was that any soul that is hurting and is there for God's love would be accepted. If you're their to burn the place down, then gtfo.

I don't go to church much though, so I'm just saying IF....

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Someone wants to live a perverted lifestyle, that is their business.

I just disagree with the church bowing to such perversion.

sad, narrow-minded little bigot is all you are. oh yea, and a complete asshole, cannot forget the asshole part. That's important, you are a complete, and total asshole.

 

[Texashiker]

sad, narrow-minded little bigot is all you are. oh yea, and a complete asshole, cannot forget the asshole part. That's important, you are a complete, and total asshole.

How do I know you are closed minded liberal? You can not respect a differing opinion.

Live your lifestyle, but allow me to do the same.

 

[Retro Rob]

I'd say anybody could join that wanted to be there.

And no, if the ISIS soldier was still on the hunt, I'd call the cops and/or shoot him in defense. Not the same situation. My point was that any soul that is hurting and is there for God's love would be accepted. If you're their to burn the place down, then gtfo.

I don't go to church much though, so I'm just saying IF....

Well, "everyone" isn't welcome, then...and that's the point I wanted to make -- those are reasonable conditions you're placing on potential members.

Churches are within their rights to place restrictions on members (even not allowing or choosing to allow gay married members).

The solution is simple: find a Church that doesn't have those restrictions.

 

[zinfamous]

How do I know you are closed minded liberal? You can not respect a differing opinion.

Live your lifestyle, but allow me to do the same.

See, this is why no one here, or no one you know, takes you seriously. You do not extend this philosophy to others.

What you mean to say, is "let me live my lifestyle, but I don't want you to live yours."

 

[etrigan420]

lulz...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/14/world/vatican-backtrack-gays/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

#blackwater

 

[Texashiker]

What you mean to say, is "let me live my lifestyle, but I don't want you to live yours."

Live your lifestyle.

I do not care.

 

[zinfamous]

Live your lifestyle.

I do not care.

Of course you do. The fact that you absolutely care about others' lifestyle is the sum total of your posting history.

You care so much, that you want to make certain lifestyles illegal.

 

[DrPizza]

Ah religion. You gotta love it. Hey, I am against gay marriage, as some of you already know. But I wholeheartedly feel that the farce that is gay marriage absolutely pales in comparison to the farce that is the catholic church.

The bible is clear on homosexuality. But once again, the church and it's sheep will pick and choose what parts of the bible they feel like believing in. It's a joke.

The Bible says very little about homosexuality. On the other hand, the Old Testament is filled with stuff condoning slavery.

I don't think you seriously believe that, because they've been this way for a number of centuries.

They've had plenty of time and opportunity to re-examine their behavior and simply decided change wasn't needed because they still wielded an exceptional amount of power.

That, my freind, has changed...and I don't think that its a coincidence that they're being more open to gays around the time 30+ states have gay marriage legal.

I've said it before: The Catholics, more than any other Christian faith, are a lot more flexible than other faiths in their beliefs, provided they keep the same basic core beliefs. In the 1960's, Pope Pius the some number or another, basically said, "hey, this big bang stuff. Our scientists took a look at it, and it seems that there's a shit ton of evidence in favor of it. So much so, that we'd be the laughing stock of religions if we denied it. Hey, we always said that God created the Universe - it had a beginning. The big bang says the same thing, that it had a beginning. That 6 day stuff - that's just a parable. Oh yeah, and while we're at it, it seems there's a shit ton of evidence for that evolution thing too. And lastly, that whole Earth is the center of the universe thing, not the sun the center of the solar system? Yeah, our bad. Sorry about those people we burned at the stake as heretics. Sorry."

Now, with this announcement, the message seems to be a little more in line with Jesus's message: love one another (no pun or other meaning intended there).
Jesus did NOT say, "kill all the <homophobic slurs>"

This is the Catholics simply adapting, rather than doubling down on stupidity*


*see: creation museum.

 

[etrigan420]

In the 1960's, Pope Pius the some number or another, basically said, "hey, this big bang stuff. Our scientists took a look at it, and it seems that there's a shit ton of evidence in favor of it. So much so, that we'd be the laughing stock of religions if we denied it. Hey, we always said that God created the Universe - it had a beginning. The big bang says the same thing. That 6 day stuff - that's just a parable. Oh yeah, and while we're at it, it seems there's a shit ton of evidence for that evolution thing too. And lastly, that whole Earth is the center of the universe thing, not the sun the center of the solar system? Yeah, our bad. Sorry about those people we burned at the stake as heretics. Sorry."

I believe that was Pope Spiccoli IV

 

[alzan]

The Bible says very little about homosexuality. On the other hand, the Old Testament is filled with stuff condoning slavery.

I can find my quotes from posts years ago, but it seems the Catholics, more than any other Christian faith, are a lot more flexible than other faiths in their beliefs, provided they keep the same basic core beliefs. In the 1960's, Pope Pius the some number or another, basically said, "hey, this big bang stuff. Our scientists took a look at it, and it seems that there's a shit ton of evidence in favor of it. So much so, that we'd be the laughing stock of religions if we denied it. Hey, we always said that God created the Universe - it had a beginning. The big bang says the same thing. That 6 day stuff - that's just a parable. Oh yeah, and while we're at it, it seems there's a shit ton of evidence for that evolution thing too. And lastly, that whole Earth is the center of the universe thing, not the sun the center of the solar system? Yeah, our bad. Sorry about those people we burned at the stake as heretics. Sorry."

This is the Catholics simply adapting, rather than doubling down on stupidity*


*see: creation museum.

The church reminds me of a locomotive with square wheels; it'll move but slowly and with much jostling. Eventually it may move enough to start wearing down those sharp edges on those wheels.

 

[JEDIYoda]

This is the Catholics simply adapting, rather than doubling down on stupidity*

I really like what you just said.....that is so very accurate!!

 

[irishScott]

I would agree. Which is why I have in recent years stopped attending my Catholic church. They are shifting policies now that something is fashionable. They need to keep up their popularity.

This isn't just a Catholic phenomenon, more than a few Protestant churches have no idea what to do. My mom's side of the family is pure rural Bible Belt Baptist, and they post articles on facebook all the time about the waning "moral integrity" of their various churches. My Aunt once posted an article from some Christian site that basically said "yes church attendence is down and young people are increasingly rejecting it, but that doesn't mean we should change. Just leave it up to God and double down on old-school rhetoric." They are so lost it's not even funny. Advantages of a secular government.

 

[Kadarin]

lulz...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/14/world/vatican-backtrack-gays/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

#blackwater

D'oh!

 

[Texashiker]

Just leave it up to God and double down on old-school rhetoric." They are so lost it's not even funny.

It is the back peddlers and people who accept an immoral lifestyle as normal, it is those who are lost.

The church is supposed to keep the faith, regardless of opposition.

 

[irishScott]

It is the back peddlers and people who accept an immoral lifestyle as normal, it is those who are lost.

The church is supposed to keep the faith, regardless of opposition.

Then the church will fade out of existence just as many churches have before it, with the last handful of believers pathetically believing that they alone are the saved. It will become a subject remembered in detail by history majors and no one else.

The more we learn, the less we need religion to explain things, the more people reject it. More and more people are realizing that the "struggle to keep the faith" is simply "rationalizing your ass off". Religion, like everything else produced by nature, can adapt or die.

For my part, performing the mental gymnastics required to believe in a mainstream religion would have me looking in a mirror every morning and calling myself a liar. Any God that requires you to lie to yourself is not worth worshiping. If God exists and is truly all-knowing and all-merciful, he will understand. If he doesn't, and sends me to hell anyway, then I'm just the victim of a ruthless dictator; one worthy of nothing but my eternal defiance.

 

[IronWing]

The Bible says very little about homosexuality. On the other hand, the Old Testament is filled with stuff condoning slavery.

I can find my quotes from posts years ago, but it seems the Catholics, more than any other Christian faith, are a lot more flexible than other faiths in their beliefs, provided they keep the same basic core beliefs. In the 1960's, Pope Pius the some number or another, basically said, "hey, this big bang stuff. Our scientists took a look at it, and it seems that there's a shit ton of evidence in favor of it. So much so, that we'd be the laughing stock of religions if we denied it. Hey, we always said that God created the Universe - it had a beginning. The big bang says the same thing. That 6 day stuff - that's just a parable. Oh yeah, and while we're at it, it seems there's a shit ton of evidence for that evolution thing too. And lastly, that whole Earth is the center of the universe thing, not the sun the center of the solar system? Yeah, our bad. Sorry about those people we burned at the stake as heretics. Sorry."

This is the Catholics simply adapting, rather than doubling down on stupidity*


*see: creation museum.

The Catholic Church believes in continuing revelation. This provides them an acceptable method to change doctrine. The bible-only churches don't have this flexability as they have declared that revelation ended with Revelations.

The LDS Church has a similar doctrine of continuing revelation which has allowed for doctrinal changes that would make a pope's head spin.

 

[Retro Rob]

I can find my quotes from posts years ago, but it seems the Catholics, more than any other Christian faith, are a lot more flexible than other faiths in their beliefs, provided they keep the same basic core beliefs. In the 1960's, Pope Pius the some number or another, basically said, "hey, this big bang stuff. Our scientists took a look at it, and it seems that there's a shit ton of evidence in favor of it. So much so, that we'd be the laughing stock of religions if we denied it. Hey, we always said that God created the Universe - it had a beginning. The big bang says the same thing. That 6 day stuff - that's just a parable. Oh yeah, and while we're at it, it seems there's a shit ton of evidence for that evolution thing too. And lastly, that whole Earth is the center of the universe thing, not the sun the center of the solar system? Yeah, our bad. Sorry about those people we burned at the stake as heretics. Sorry."

This is the Catholics simply adapting, rather than doubling down on stupidity*


*see: creation museum.

I think you have it wrong. Being "flexible" isn't what they are...they're "reactionary".

For instance, if I suggested to you for years that its wrong to feed your dog human food, a flexible person wouldn't remain hard in that stance for those years. In fact, a flexible person would consider changing how he feeds his dogs, or at least decide to hear you out.

This has not been the case with the CC. The ONLY reason why they're "flexible" is because the public is pressuing them to, and not to mention, they're a big political organization as they are a religious one, and we know what lows politicans will stoop to in order to remain in or get elected to office. There is tremendous pressure to accept evolution, and the Big Bang...this much is a fact.

Look at the history of religion (Christianity in particular). They've always adjusted their beliefs to get (1) get more converts and (2), remain relevant to the intellectuals of the world.

Teachings like the eternal soul, trinity, Christmans and so on (stolen from Greek Pagans and Roman Pagans), are all beliefs adopted in their religion to garner the respect and conversion of the Greeks and Romans, repsectively.

 

[Texashiker]

Then the church will fade out of existence just as many churches have before it, with the last handful of believers pathetically believing that they alone are the saved. It will become a subject remembered in detail by history majors and no one else.

<snip>

The church has faced worse battles than this one.

The more we learn, the less we need religion to explain things, the more people reject it. More and more people are realizing that the "struggle to keep the faith" is simply "rationalizing your ass off". Religion, like everything else produced by nature, can adapt or die.

For my part, performing the mental gymnastics required to believe in a mainstream religion would have me looking in a mirror every morning and calling myself a liar. Any God that requires you to lie to yourself is not worth worshiping. If God exists and is truly all-knowing and all-merciful, he will understand. If he doesn't, and sends me to hell anyway, then I'm just the victim of a ruthless dictator; one worthy of nothing but my eternal defiance.

Part of religion is a code of conduct.

Jesus said to love your neighbor. He brought a new covenant that did away with the old testament.

I feel jesus intended us to love our neighbor regardless of their sexual orientation.

 

[irishScott]

The church has faced worse battles than this one.

This isn't a battle that's going to end, it's an ideological shift brought on in part by the gradual lessening of church influence. To fight it is to fight an advancing glacier.

Part of religion is a code of conduct.

Jesus said to love your neighbor. He brought a new covenant that did away with the old testament.

I feel jesus intended us to love our neighbor regardless of their sexual orientation.

Nonetheless most churches and many Christians still view homosexuality as a sin that counts as a one-way ticket to hell. Love thy neighbor is all well and good, but "caring about" is a far cry from "accepting". Beyond that issue there's also just a lot of hocus-pocus that many Christians accept literally and demand others accept literally, and that's something I don't understand. I was raised Southern Baptist, and I remember pissing off more than a few of my Sunday School teachers by questioning the magic. I accepted most of the moral lessons, that stuff made sense to me; I just didn't buy that Jesus literally walked on water (among other things), which pissed some of them off to no end. Didn't buy it at age 6, I'm certainly no closer to doing so as an adult.

 

[Texashiker]

This isn't a battle that's going to end, it's an ideological shift brought on in part by the gradual lessening of church influence. To fight it is to fight an advancing glacier.

This is a battle of attrition.

No nation has lasted or will last forever. Whether it is a plague, nuclear war, climate change,,, something always happens to drive people back to religion.

Nonetheless most churches and many Christians still view homosexuality as a sin that counts as a one-way ticket to hell. Love thy neighbor is all well and good, but "caring about" is a far cry from "accepting".

There is still a holier than thou attitude with just about all religions.

 

[alzan]

I think you have it wrong. Being "flexible" isn't what they are...they're "reactionary".

For instance, if I suggested to you for years that its wrong to feed your dog human food, a flexible person wouldn't remain hard in that stance for those years. In fact, a flexible person would consider changing how he feeds his dogs, or at least decide to hear you out.

This has not been the case with the CC. The ONLY reason why they're "flexible" is because the public is pressuing them to, and not to mention, they're a big political organization as they are a religious one, and we know what lows politicans will stoop to in order to remain in or get elected to office. There is tremendous pressure to accept evolution, and the Big Bang...this much is a fact.

Look at the history of religion (Christianity in particular). They've always adjusted their beliefs to get (1) get more converts and (2), remain relevant to the intellectuals of the world.

Teachings like the eternal soul, trinity, Christmans and so on (stolen from Greek Pagans and Roman Pagans), are all beliefs adopted in their religion to garner the respect and conversion of the Greeks and Romans, repsectively.

Some public pressure but mostly pew pressure.

Tremendous pressure to accept the Big Bang and Evolution? Please. The Big Bang as a theory has been around since ~1930's, publically known since the late '50's - early '60's, theory of Evolution longer than that. The CC hasn't exactly been at the forefront of the very real pressure to teach Creationism or it's bastard child Intelligent Design in public schools, pupils in Catholic schools learn those and other scientific theories.

The substitution of and "borrowing" of feast days, celebrations, etc. from other belief systems was the Roman government (Constantine) forcing their (his) new found faith down the peoples' throats. Some of the original intermixing of faith and politics.

 

[Atreus21]

The Bible says very little about homosexuality. On the other hand, the Old Testament is filled with stuff condoning slavery.

The Old Testament explicitly condemns involuntary slavery and it prescribes death to those who practice it.

It issued rules for managing those who voluntarily enslaved themselves, which was the ancient world's version of the safety net. Labor for food and shelter.

I've said it before: The Catholics, more than any other Christian faith, are a lot more flexible than other faiths in their beliefs, provided they keep the same basic core beliefs. In the 1960's, Pope Pius the some number or another, basically said, "hey, this big bang stuff. Our scientists took a look at it, and it seems that there's a shit ton of evidence in favor of it. So much so, that we'd be the laughing stock of religions if we denied it. Hey, we always said that God created the Universe - it had a beginning. The big bang says the same thing, that it had a beginning. That 6 day stuff - that's just a parable. Oh yeah, and while we're at it, it seems there's a shit ton of evidence for that evolution thing too. And lastly, that whole Earth is the center of the universe thing, not the sun the center of the solar system? Yeah, our bad. Sorry about those people we burned at the stake as heretics. Sorry."

You might be interested to see who first postulated the big bang theory before continuing.

 

[onlyCOpunk]

I don't normally chime in on discussions of this nature but....

As for the Catholic Church being a criminal organisation, and those opposing it. I think everyone is forgetting that the Vatican is it's own country. The pope and his minions can do whatever they want behind those walls without any interference from any other government or any other authority. It's not about being non-profit it's about it being a sovereign nation.

As far as money laundering goes, the Vatican also has it's own bank which is not subject to any rules or regulations from any other banks or countries sooooo you can think about that. There's been long running battles with the Italian government being unable to gain access to the bank to investigate dealings. It's a point of content.

In regards to the Catholic Church taking this new stance. Meh, the new pope is progressive which is good. It's a step in the right direction.

 

[alzan]

The Old Testament explicitly condemns involuntary slavery and it prescribes death to those who practice it.

It issued rules for managing those who voluntarily enslaved themselves, which was the ancient world's version of the safety net. Labor for food and shelter.

You might be interested to see who first postulated the big bang theory before continuing.

Here we go again; yes it was a priest. The CC, for the most part, controlled the money, the learning institutions, the educational process and who could receive education for several centuries; of course a lot of theories and processes were first postulated and proposed by priests.