Vatican proposes 'stunning' shift on gays, lesbians

[IronWing]

OP, it is hard to tell where your quoting ends and your own words begin.

Did you write this part:

It is fact that the Gay and Lesbian community tend to be far more personally conservative, have far more wealth and higher income, and are far more strict when it comes to personal finances and their own conservative economic philosophy.

If so, could you provide evidence to support this statement?

 

[alzan]

The point is, they welcome people AFTER churches start to show signs of decline in attendance, or the winds of change start to predict those declines.

The church could also be admitting they've been wrong all these years.

 

[BudAshes]

The point is, they welcome people AFTER churches start to show signs of decline in attendance, or the winds of change start to predict those declines.

Agreed. The catholic church is essentially a criminal organization. From laundering money for the mob to covering up child molestations you aren't going to find a much more evil group of people. But, they are well organized and have a huge base of mostly ignorant people. They will do whatever it takes to keep their power over them.

 

[Retro Rob]

The church could also be admitting they've been wrong all these years.

I don't think you seriously believe that, because they've been this way for a number of centuries.

They've had plenty of time and opportunity to re-examine their behavior and simply decided change wasn't needed because they still wielded an exceptional amount of power.

That, my freind, has changed...and I don't think that its a coincidence that they're being more open to gays around the time 30+ states have gay marriage legal.

 

[Retro Rob]

Agreed. The catholic church is essentially a criminal organization. From laundering money for the mob to covering up child molestations you aren't going to find a much more evil group of people. But, they are well organized and have a huge base of mostly ignorant people. They will do whatever it takes to keep their power over them.

Now, I'm no Catholic, but they are not a "criminal organization". Sure, they've done some questionable things, but they don't make their bones on breaking the law.

I think you're being sarcastic, but stll...I won't agree with you here.

 

[Kadarin]

How is it stunning? Catholic church and pretty much most "religions" care about 2 things... money and power. They see people shifting to accept gays like the Mormons had to eventually accept blacks. They do not want to lose their power or money so they shift as well.

Nothing new really.

This nails it.

 

[alzan]

I don't think you seriously believe that, because they've been this way for a number of centuries.

They've had plenty of time and opportunity to re-examine their behavior and simply decided change wasn't needed because they still wielded an exceptional amount of power.

That, my freind, has changed...and I don't think that its a coincidence that they're being more open to gays around the time 30+ states have gay marriage legal.

I don't "believe" it, it's reasonable to think that it's one of probably many reasons that the church has modified it's stance. I don't view all decisions by the church as "top-down"; the wider acceptance of LGBTQ folk by the body of the church as a whole has caused the leadership to change it's view of an issue important to the laity.

 

[BudAshes]

Now, I'm no Catholic, but they are not a "criminal organization". Sure, they've done some questionable things, but they don't make their bones on breaking the law.

I think you're being sarcastic, but stll...I won't agree with you here.

Nope, I'm not. Just try google Vatican + laundering, vatican + cover-up, vatican + child mollestation etc. They are a world wide organization that tries to exist outside the checks and balances the modern world has implemented and does this based on the claims that they are judged by a higher authority.

I mean are you telling me this guy wasn't a gangster sitting in this chair?

 

[lopri]

My cursory search on Catholic-related forums show the focus is on divorce/remarriage than teh gays - which is understandable.

 

[Sonikku]

Agh, the church needs to hold true to gospel and not just cave in to popular liberal opinion like they did when they accepted Earth as no longer being the center of the universe a decade or so ago. The universe is a big place. Who's to say it isn't?!

 

[Retro Rob]

Nope, I'm not. Just try google Vatican + laundering, vatican + cover-up, vatican + child mollestation etc. They are a world wide organization that tries to exist outside the checks and balances the modern world has implemented and does this based on the claims that they are judged by a higher authority.

I mean are you telling me this guy wasn't a gangster sitting in this chair?

If this is how you go about procuring your information, you are a fool.

I can google "Obama + brith coverup" and get all I need to confirm a bias too.

 

[alzan]

If this is how you go about procuring your information, you are a fool.

I can google "Obama + brith coverup" and get all I need to confirm a bias too.

Trouble is the "birther" crap is just that, crap.

While a bit facetious I think he has a point. Maybe not specifically Ratzenberger but the church in the modern age has many crimes for which they should answer but never have. The official statements on priest sexual abuse, the silence of the church during the Holocaust, and others are just a whitewash of the events.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

After watching the video and reading some of the quotes, I think maybe the Pope might be gay himself. I cant see any other reason for some of his extreme views. This seems like the product of a warped individual when they start talking about cohabitation without marriage. Only a disturbed celibate priest could possible have such a warped mind. One reason I don't go along with some of the things Popes have said in the past is I don't agree with any church that bans the clergy from getting married.

I wonder if the Holy Sea should defrock the Pope and excommunicate him. He will create a giant divide in the Catholic Church.

Most popular pope in ages, actually bringing in new converts to Catholicism? Excommunicate that queer! If there's one thing we can't handle, it's minor change.

 

[Retro Rob]

Trouble is the "birther" crap is just that, crap.

Agree, but my point is that if you want to find dirt on anyone and any organization, you WILL find it.

While a bit facetious I think he has a point. Maybe not specifically Ratzenberger but the church in the modern age has many crimes for which they should answer but never have. The official statements on priest sexual abuse, the silence of the church during the Holocaust, and others are just a whitewash of the events.

OK, but there's a different between confirming something happened, and its a whole other thing to prove a "cover up" or "criminal activity".

Budashes is simply blanketing the entire organization as a "criminal organization" which is both stupid, and wrong.

The catholic Church doesn't make its money, nor get its adherents via criminal activity -- it is not a criminal organization.

 

[lopri]

Here is a full translation that I found about this "synod" thing. Not sure what this document is purported to be. (a recommendation? a resolution? food for thought?)

http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2014/10/13/0751/03037.html

The discussion topics. Scroll down to find cohabitation/divorce/same-sex relationship starting paragraph 36.

• Proclaiming the Gospel of the family today, in various contexts
  
• Guiding couples on the path in preparation for marriage
  
• Accompanying the first years of married life
  
• Positive aspects of civil unions and cohabitation [36-39]
  
• Caring for wounded families (separated couples, the divorced who have not remarried, the divorced and remarried) [40-49]
  
• Welcoming homosexual persons [50-52]
  
• The transmission of life and the challenge of declining birthrate
  
• The challenge of education and the role of the family in evangelization

 

[alzan]

Agree, but my point is that if you want to find dirt on anyone and any organization, you WILL find it.



OK, but there's a different between confirming something happened, and its a whole other thing to prove a "cover up" or "criminal activity".

Budashes is simply blanketing the entire organization as a "criminal organization" which is both stupid, and wrong.

The catholic Church doesn't make its money, nor get its adherents via criminal activity -- it is not a criminal organization.

The policy of shuffling abusive priests from parish to parish and (for the most part) keeping the sexual predators from facing criminal charges is is the very definition of cover-up and conspiracy.

As well, the church's acquisition of wealth over the centuries via receiving the material and worldly possessions of it's monks and priests is theft; restricting priests from marrying and creating heirs gave and continues to give the church a revenue stream.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Agree, but my point is that if you want to find dirt on anyone and any organization, you WILL find it.



OK, but there's a different between confirming something happened, and its a whole other thing to prove a "cover up" or "criminal activity".

Budashes is simply blanketing the entire organization as a "criminal organization" which is both stupid, and wrong.

The catholic Church doesn't make its money, nor get its adherents via criminal activity -- it is not a criminal organization.

If <insert non-profit tax exempt charity here> was found to exist to do it's charitable work, but also make people rich and hide hideous felonious activities of some of it's members, and was also known to work with shady organizations, what would you call it? Seems at least kind of like a criminal organization to me.

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. But understand that the catholic church has no one to blame but itself for the people that do see them as criminal in some ways.

 

[Retro Rob]

The policy of shuffling abusive priests from parish to parish and (for the most part) keeping the sexual predators from facing criminal charges is is the very definition of cover-up and conspiracy.

OK

As well, the church's acquisition of wealth over the centuries via receiving the material and worldly possessions of it's monks and priests is theft; restricting priests from marrying and creating heirs gave and continues to give the church a revenue stream.

That is not stealing. It's dishonest and clearly unethical IMO, but there is no law that prohibits churches from making this as a rule.

 

[Retro Rob]

If <insert non-profit tax exempt charity here> was found to exist to do it's charitable work, but also make people rich and hide hideous felonious activities of some of it's members, and was also known to work with shady organizations, what would you call it? Seems at least kind of like a criminal organization to me.

What laws have been broken? Give me a list please.

I agree with the moral principle behind it, but if they're not breaking any laws, then they cannot be a "criminal organization".

It sounds like I'm defending the CC, but I am not -- what I am defending is how "criminal organization" is being inappropriately applied.

EDIT: I'm sure there are members engaging in unlawful behavor, but is the Church supporting it? Do they know about it and are they ignoring it?

Once you show that, then you'd have a point.

 

[BudAshes]

If this is how you go about procuring your information, you are a fool.

I can google "Obama + brith coverup" and get all I need to confirm a bias too.

I guess I missed the obama brith scandal. Did it involve a botched circumcision and the family dog?

Anyway, you obviously don't know how to use a search engine. If you can't ignore the fake news sites then wtf are you doing here? Go watch some fox news and listen to rush limbaugh and enjoy your ignorance.

 

[zinfamous]

I fear HIV. Does not mean I am going to elect to have anal sex.

As for the church accepting gays, they are just bowing to a trend of accepting a perverted lifestyle as normal.

Jesus said to love your neighbor. Yes I love my neighbor, but that does not mean I have to like his / her lifestyle.

don't ever change, Texashiker.

 

[alzan]

OK

That is not stealing. It's dishonest and clearly unethical IMO, but there is no law that prohibits churches from making this as a rule.

A rose by any other name still smells like shit.

Why would the church make a law that cuts off it's own revenue stream? What civil authority would attempt to regulate a church?

 

[SlowSpyder]

What laws have been broken? Give me a list please.

I agree with the moral principle behind it, but if they're not breaking any laws, then they cannot be a "criminal organization".

It sounds like I'm defending the CC, but I am not -- what I am defending is how "criminal organization" is being inappropriately applied.

EDIT: I'm sure there are members engaging in unlawful behavor, but is the Church supporting it? Do they know about it and are they ignoring it?

Once you show that, then you'd have a point.

As far as actual criminal activity, do you think that those high up in the chain of command were unaware of priests molesting kids? Do you think they may have tried to cover up those crimes in an effort to avoid controversy and save face, especially when you're representing god?

The whole Roberto Calvi thing seems very mafia-ish to me. I wonder if the church was involved. Also, there have been scandals regarding money laundering with the Vatican bank.

Sounds kind of criminal to me.

 

[Retro Rob]

As far as actual criminal activity, do you think that those high up in the chain of command were unaware of priests molesting kids? Do you think they may have tried to cover up those crimes in an effort to avoid controversy and save face, especially when you're representing god?

The whole Roberto Calvi thing seems very mafia-ish to me. I wonder if the church was involved. Also, there have been scandals regarding money laundering with the Vatican bank.

Sounds kind of criminal to me.

IN other words, you have no evidence that the Church is a criminal organization, yet, you're gonna float the rumor that it is.

No wonder atheists are just as trustworthy as rapists in this society.

 

[SlowSpyder]

IN other words, you have no evidence that the Church is a criminal organization, yet, you're gonna float the rumor that it is.

No wonder atheists are just as trustworthy as rapists in this society.

And if I called them a criminal organization, you might have a point. To me there are quite a few similarities, though.