Vatican proposes 'stunning' shift on gays, lesbians

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
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Vatican proposes 'stunning' shift on gays, lesbians

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/10/13/vatican-proposes-stunning-shift-on-gays-lesbians/?hpt=hp_t2

“Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community. Are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing to them a fraternal space in our communities? Often they wish to encounter a church that offers them a welcoming home. Are our communities capable of providing that, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony?”

Frankly, I have always believed that if the republican party, and the church, were more open and accepting to the gay and lesbian community, the gay and lesbian community would find a very large percentage siding with conservative republican party policies over the progressive democrat policies.
Siding with republican party policies far over democratic party policies.

It is fact that the Gay and Lesbian community tend to be far more personally conservative, have far more wealth and higher income, and are far more strict when it comes to personal finances and their own conservative economic philosophy.

And the one legitimate Gay and Lesbian based religious organization, called the MCC Church, has always been very much catholic orientated in operation.

What turns off the Gay and Lesbian community to siding with the current republican party and republican conservative values in general, are continuing republican rejection of the Gay and Lesbian community.

The gay and lesbian community as a whole would much rather and prefer to associate with old fashion republican conservative political policies when it comes to personal prosperity and political discipline, than with the progressive democratic party.
And their community often find that a very frustrating forced choice for Gay and Lesbian people to associate with the progressive over the conservative.

If and when the platform of the republican party should decide not to judge, and instead prefer to adopt a much more open accepting policy towards Gays and Lesbians and their community, the republican party would find droves of new members flowing from that gay and lesbian community, moving over to the republican side.
Seeking to associate with the republican party far over the democratic party.

My proof follows....

The heart of the gay and lesbian community are in fact very much family value oriented.
They wish to marry. They wish to adopt. They wish for the traditional and dedicated family valued lifestyle. They support strong and crime free society. They support strong national security. And they very much support a strong economically conservative based business system.
Exactly as with the republican party.

And I will bring up an issue that many will probably disagree with.
I absolutely do believe that the majority of Gays and Lesbians, at heart, would support and are in fact more Pro-Life over Pro-choice.
If, and I say if... the Republican party and the Church would open up to the Gay and Lesbian community, I truly believe their community would have no problem with also fully supporting the conservative views when it comes to abortion.


With the given advances in marriage equality that we have been experiencing, and should the church next fall inline with more openness towards the gay has lesbian community, gays and lesbians would definitely identify with more republican conservatism than with democratic liberalism.
That could and would become the most major shift in politics that we have seen in decades.

Now that our courts, and our constitution, have sided with the gay and lesbian community unanimously, it will be interesting to see if the church and the republican party might also fall in step?
Incredible as it may seem, those new gay and lesbian families could become that traditional family valued families of the future within society.
Given that term "Family values" having been redefined, expanded, and more inclusive.

Society certainly reaps what it sows.
And every action has the reaction.

The breakup of the black family from bigotry and discrimination, by no means of their own choosing, has certainly taken its toll on the black community. And has lead to more instability within society as a whole.
The Black community has always and simply sought their fair place at the table of equality.

The same exact theory applies to the gay community.
The gay community trend and tend has been to be more sexually promiscuous, less family oriented, and highly liberal.
But given a fair place at the table of equality in society, and with respect, and with acceptance from our political parties as well as church and state, and naturally including our constitution, we would find a change of heart and a shift of morals within not only the Black community but also from within the Gay and Lesbian community.

Society does in fact reap what it sows.
Reaping respect towards all will sow a much better society for all.
That, simply is how it works.
And sadly, and historically, a lesson so hard for society to learn.
Go figure....
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Go figure....


I did. A certain percentage of us self haters self congratulate ourselves with the notion that at least we are not as worthless as gays. And since we always become what we fear, we do become more worthless than others we decide are morally inferior by that very act.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
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You seem to think that there are way more catholic republicans than there are.
 

Vaux

Senior member
May 24, 2013
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Ah religion. You gotta love it. Hey, I am against gay marriage, as some of you already know. But I wholeheartedly feel that the farce that is gay marriage absolutely pales in comparison to the farce that is the catholic church.

The bible is clear on homosexuality. But once again, the church and it's sheep will pick and choose what parts of the bible they feel like believing in. It's a joke.
 
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lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
13,327
708
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Catholics (including my family) are rather tolerant people from my experiences, compared to certain evangelicals (e.g. Westboro..). It's just its leadership that has been extreme.
 

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
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Catholics (including my family) are rather tolerant people from my experiences, compared to certain evangelicals (e.g. Westboro..). It's just its leadership that has been extreme.

I think it depends how old they are. My gf's parents are both pretty Catholic, and they are not tolerant of gays at all. They don't spew hate, but they definitely are not okay with gayness or gay marriage.

My gf on the other hand though, is totally okay with gay people, and supports gay marriage as well.

Once the current Catholics/Christians that are like.. 40/50+ years old die off, things will be a lot different in the church, and for conservatives alike. In the next 30-40 years, a lot of values and laws will change due to this.
 

master_shake_

Diamond Member
May 22, 2012
6,425
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they should be ok with homosexuality...

the catholic church has been fine with priests raping boys homosexually for years ..
 

Jimzz

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2012
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How is it stunning? Catholic church and pretty much most "religions" care about 2 things... money and power. They see people shifting to accept gays like the Mormons had to eventually accept blacks. They do not want to lose their power or money so they shift as well.

Nothing new really.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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And since we always become what we fear, we do become more worthless than others we decide are morally inferior by that very act.

I fear HIV. Does not mean I am going to elect to have anal sex.

As for the church accepting gays, they are just bowing to a trend of accepting a perverted lifestyle as normal.

Jesus said to love your neighbor. Yes I love my neighbor, but that does not mean I have to like his / her lifestyle.
 

brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
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How is it stunning? Catholic church and pretty much most "religions" care about 2 things... money and power. They see people shifting to accept gays like the Mormons had to eventually accept blacks. They do not want to lose their power or money so they shift as well.

Nothing new really.

I would agree. Which is why I have in recent years stopped attending my Catholic church. They are shifting policies now that something is fashionable. They need to keep up their popularity.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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I fear HIV. Does not mean I am going to elect to have anal sex.

As for the church accepting gays, they are just bowing to a trend of accepting a perverted lifestyle as normal.

Jesus said to love your neighbor. Yes I love my neighbor, but that does not mean I have to like his / her lifestyle.
But let us also not forget other great words of Jesus, when he also said

“Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"
Matthew 7:1-3

and
“He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
John 8:7
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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How is it stunning? Catholic church and pretty much most "religions" care about 2 things... money and power. They see people shifting to accept gays like the Mormons had to eventually accept blacks. They do not want to lose their power or money so they shift as well.

Nothing new really.

This is 100 PERCENT CORRECT!

This "shift" makes it very clear that religion keeps it finger on the pulse of societal change, and REacts accordingly.

Very good point.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
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The collection plates were starting to get dry. Easy to compromise god's word when people start to look at you as a hate group and you need more money. It's so obvious that it's a business...
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
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I fear HIV. Does not mean I am going to elect to have anal sex.

As for the church accepting gays, they are just bowing to a trend of accepting a perverted lifestyle as normal.

Jesus said to love your neighbor. Yes I love my neighbor, but that does not mean I have to like his / her lifestyle.

You are a sad little person.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
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Someone wants to live a perverted lifestyle, that is their business.

I just disagree with the church bowing to such perversion.

Perversion is in the eye of the beholder.

You do seem to concern yourself a lot with others' "perversions"...just sayin'
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,699
60
91
Someone wants to live a perverted lifestyle, that is their business.

I just disagree with the church bowing to such perversion.

SO, as a christian, you'd prefer to turn away gays/lesbians who are seeking God's love, just because you don't like them?

Fuck that. As a christian, I say welcome them all with open arms. Welcome EVERYONE with open arms. Everyone. If an ISIS soldier showed up to my church with a heavy heart, I'd make him waffles and give him the evening to talk/chat and let him air his soul out.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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SO, as a christian, you'd prefer to turn away gays/lesbians who are seeking God's love, just because you don't like them?

Fuck that. As a christian, I say welcome them all with open arms. Welcome EVERYONE with open arms. Everyone. If an ISIS soldier showed up to my church with a heavy heart, I'd make him waffles and give him the evening to talk/chat and let him air his soul out.

You welcome people, but they cannot officailly join unless they've demonstrated that they've changed.

If an ISIS soldier was still looking to kill Christians, would you welcome him with "open arms", therefore endangering your congregation?

The "welcome them" argument is fallacious on its face, and an ear-tickling thing to say.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Someone wants to live a perverted lifestyle, that is their business.

I just disagree with the church bowing to such perversion.

To be honest, you're hatred of people different from you is perverted. The church is following the teachings of God, "Leave all judgement unto him". It not the church's nor your place to judge other people.
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
14,010
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You welcome people, but they cannot officailly join unless they've demonstrated that they've changed.

If an ISIS soldier was still looking to kill Christians, would you welcome him with "open arms", therefore endangering your congregation?

The "welcome them" argument is fallacious on its face, and an ear-tickling thing to say.

Everything about religion is ear tickling. That's all it is.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
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Everything about religion is ear tickling. That's all it is.

The point is, they welcome people AFTER churches start to show signs of decline in attendance, or the winds of change start to predict those declines.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
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Someone wants to live a perverted lifestyle, that is their business.

I just disagree with the church bowing to such perversion.


What's 'perverted' though? I imagine playfully smacking your wife's clothed ass in public would have gotten you quite a bit of grief from religious leaders if you go far enough back in time.

The real god is what goes in the collection plate, nothing more.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
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This could be a good thing because often a young gay person will live in a straight family. If you are going to accept divorced parents and people that commit adultery or rob and steal, then accepting gays as people is probably a good idea.

At the same time, if someone is sinning with other church members that is not a good idea. Welcome the people not the lifestyle. Most people are sinners, they just have other issues.

This does not mean that priests are going to start doing gay weddings. However, I could see some churches embracing such an activity.

After watching the video and reading some of the quotes, I think maybe the Pope might be gay himself. I cant see any other reason for some of his extreme views. This seems like the product of a warped individual when they start talking about cohabitation without marriage. Only a disturbed celibate priest could possible have such a warped mind. One reason I don't go along with some of the things Popes have said in the past is I don't agree with any church that bans the clergy from getting married.

I wonder if the Holy Sea should defrock the Pope and excommunicate him. He will create a giant divide in the Catholic Church.

In my mind it is the job of any religious leader to encourage Marriage as the very core belief of any church. This is my opinion of course. The Holy Bible sets Marriage as the first most important Item after the creation.

The Mormons thought marriage was so important that they published this Declaration to the World:

https://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng
 
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