US Soldiers Execute Iraqi Family

[piasabird]

So you have film of this?
Did you see these people shot?
How do you know the terrorists did not kill them?

There have been a lot of stolen military weapons. Lets just say that even in the USA we believe people are innocent till proven guilty.

War is hell you know. It is possible that some soldiers could have killed some civilians, but unless there were eye witnesses, then who is to say? For all you know the people in the house could have been sheltering terrorists and they are all enemy combatants.

War is hell and as far as I am concerned we should not have started this war. But dont convict our soldiers without positive proof that would stand up in court. If they say they went into a house and someone threatened them or shot at them and they opened fire and they returned fire, then it is hard to say who is guilty and who is innocent. If you are a soldier and you have seen friends killed, then you shoot first and ask questions later. Can you really blame our soldiers if they are a little trigger happy?

Dont be judge and executioner of soldiers because you hate bush. For all you know they are democrats that were forced to go and fight in this war.

 

[Sinsear]

Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
AMERICA!!!! FUCK YEAH!!!!!

Doesn't it feel fucking great to be an American??

FUCK YEAH!!!

Actually it does; thanks for asking.

 

[polarmystery]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: palehorse74
sad.

No, let me tell you what is "sad," palehorse.

Invading a country that never attacked us. That's sad. Trying to fight Islamic Fascism by taking out a secular country in the Middle East. That's sad. Trying to spread democracy by force. That's sad. Causing a war that kills over 600,000 Iraqi people. That's sad. And getting almost 4000 of our own men and women killed doing so. That's sad. The tens of thousands of men and women in uniform who will return to the US missing an arm, or a leg, or their sanity. That's sad. Having to borrow billions of dollars from China to pay for all of this. That's sad. And after all this cluster fuck of sadness, there is still no day in sight that it will ever end. That, palehorse, is sad.

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

 

[Train]

Its amazing how the majority people here take crap stories like this and just gulp it right up.

But a story saying AQ exploited two retarted women? oh noees, cant be casting AQ in a bad light, that MUST be propaganda.

"eye winesses" uhh ya right, "unidentified interpreter", lol, you believe everything an AQ press release says?

 

[Noobtastic]

We should expect more than cold-blooded murder from our soldiers. These guys deserve nothing less than a lengthy prison sentence to reflect on the lives they so carelessly ended.

Nice double down.

You also don't appreciate the military judicial process. Many innocent or unassociated soldiers (i.e, one soldier kills a civilian, entire squad is convicted of murder) have been tossed into jail because of emotionally unstable citizens and an easily influenced populous.

OMG, CNN reports 5 soldiers murdered Iraqi family....BURN 'EM!!!

Those who demand fair trial and justice for the terrorists being sent to gitmo take no issue when it's their own soldiers.

Hypocrisy ftw!

 

[Fern]

But the head of Adwar's Awakening Council, Col. Mutasim Ahmed, said that one of the men killed was a U.S.-allied fighter and said it appeared that gunmen were positioned near the house and attacked the Americans, provoking return fire.

"Our own investigation is continuing and this area is full of al-Qaida operatives who are not satisfied with our successful work with the Americans," he said. "I cannot rule out that the enemy is trying to sow seeds of division between us and the Americans."

I would've chosen to bold the above part.

But then, I'd prolly wait until the investigations, including that of the awakening council, were concluded before jumping to conclusions and making allegations.

Fern

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I think your version is probably closer to the truth. My question is why can't the Iraqi Army do these raids? Why should our guys be put in these kind of situations when we have supplied and trained the Iragi Army to do this?

The Iraqi Army can do some raids. We actually do work with them, and sometimes only in an advisory role. We've done raids recently with them. I can't speak for the whole Iraqi Army, only the portion operating in my sector, but they seem to be getting better.

When we first took over our sector we had no IA only Iraqi Police. The IP's were corrupt and we removed them from sector and became the only law enforcement. We then slowly started integrating Iraqi Army (who the locals trusted more). I can't talk too specifically about their capabilities but the first unit was rather under equipped. They rotated out and we got a new unit that is very well equipped and supported. They are taking a far more active role. We are also just about to open an IP Acadamy which will train both Shia and Sunni recruits from the area who will then operate in the area (as opposed to the all Shia IP force, with no locals, which was here when we first got here). Progress has been slow but there is some being made. Hopefully they will start to take over more and more operations, though simply put we are just better at the job than they are at the current time.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: datalink7
Here is probably what happened.

Multiple informants inform a US Infantry Company Commander operating in the area that a certain house has armed insurgents wanted by American Forces for crimes against Coalition forces and Iraqi civilians. One says he watched them enter the house recently and they haven't come out. Company Commander plans a raid to apprehend these individuals who are believed to be armed and dangerous.

American troops cordon off the house and then knock down the door and begin to clear. As they enter the sleeping room several males, suprised to find people busting in, jump up and run towards the intruders in confusion.

The leading US soldiers have a fraction of a second to determine if these people have hostile intent or not. If it's at night, this knocks down your vision even more dramatically. The soldiers, believing based on HUMINT that there are armed insurgents, begin to fire. This ends up being the wrong choice, but it wasn't a malicious one.

I bet the story is something more along these lines.

I am in an Infantry Company. I've been here 1 year now, and still have some months to go. I've been operating in an area of Baghdad that has had some of the worst, statistically speaking, of the sectarian violence. We do raids all the time. As of yet, we haven't killed any innocent civilians from entering someones house. We try to be very careful to avoid civilian casualties. But I've been in the above situation I mentioned. We just didn't end up pulling the trigger, luckily.

The way jpeyton is portraying it, he would have you believe US soldiers waltzed in and murdered people while they were sleeping. I very much doubt this was the case. My scenario is much more likely. I would hope that people would listen to my story, as someone who is actually here, as opposed to someone who isn't (which includes the media who, for the most part, hides out in the Green Zone).

Funny how some stories just have the ring of truth even when they are only speculation. This isn't about whether we should be there or not, this is about an isolated incident, and some people claiming our soldiers intentionaly murdered a family for kicks instead of a it being a tragic accident. Maybe we shouldn't be there, but we are, so let's deal with what is and refrain from slandering soldiers in a warzone without knowing the facts.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: eaj0010

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: palehorse74
sad.

No, let me tell you what is "sad," palehorse.

Invading a country that never attacked us. That's sad. Trying to fight Islamic Fascism by taking out a secular country in the Middle East. That's sad. Trying to spread democracy by force. That's sad. Causing a war that kills over 600,000 Iraqi people. That's sad. And getting almost 4000 of our own men and women killed doing so. That's sad. The tens of thousands of men and women in uniform who will return to the US missing an arm, or a leg, or their sanity. That's sad. Having to borrow billions of dollars from China to pay for all of this. That's sad. And after all this cluster fuck of sadness, there is still no day in sight that it will ever end. That, palehorse, is sad.

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

:wine:

 

[Pastore]

And as soon as there is any sense of logic in the thread, no more replies from the idiot sensationalists.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: datalink7
Here is probably what happened.

Multiple informants inform a US Infantry Company Commander operating in the area that a certain house has armed insurgents wanted by American Forces for crimes against Coalition forces and Iraqi civilians. One says he watched them enter the house recently and they haven't come out. Company Commander plans a raid to apprehend these individuals who are believed to be armed and dangerous.

American troops cordon off the house and then knock down the door and begin to clear. As they enter the sleeping room several males, suprised to find people busting in, jump up and run towards the intruders in confusion.

The leading US soldiers have a fraction of a second to determine if these people have hostile intent or not. If it's at night, this knocks down your vision even more dramatically. The soldiers, believing based on HUMINT that there are armed insurgents, begin to fire. This ends up being the wrong choice, but it wasn't a malicious one.

I bet the story is something more along these lines.

I am in an Infantry Company. I've been here 1 year now, and still have some months to go. I've been operating in an area of Baghdad that has had some of the worst, statistically speaking, of the sectarian violence. We do raids all the time. As of yet, we haven't killed any innocent civilians from entering someones house. We try to be very careful to avoid civilian casualties. But I've been in the above situation I mentioned. We just didn't end up pulling the trigger, luckily.

The way jpeyton is portraying it, he would have you believe US soldiers waltzed in and murdered people while they were sleeping. I very much doubt this was the case. My scenario is much more likely. I would hope that people would listen to my story, as someone who is actually here, as opposed to someone who isn't (which includes the media who, for the most part, hides out in the Green Zone).

Funny how some stories just have the ring of truth even when they are only speculation. This isn't about whether we should be there or not, this is about an isolated incident, and some people claiming our soldiers intentionaly murdered a family for kicks instead of a it being a tragic accident. Maybe we shouldn't be there, but we are, so let's deal with what is and refrain from slandering soldiers in a warzone without knowing the facts.

:thumbsup: for both of you.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: palehorse74
why do you seem to take such pleasure in reporting such atrocities? Im serious, you seem almost giddy... wtf!?

sad.

Sorry, stories like this should really be buried on page 12; better yet, not reported at all.

1. you didn't answer my question
2. I didn't say that
3. this is certainly front-page news, but it's almost as though you think this puts egg on the US' collective face, and that somehow excites you...?? Like I said, you seem giddy -- like a kid dancing in circles, smiling, pointing, and shouting "see, I told you so I told you so!!"

maybe it's just me, but that's how I picture you whenever you discuss situations like this one in Iraq...

meh

 

[Skitzer]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: spidey07
Propaganda is the most powerful weapon.

Indeed; our military is one of the best propaganda machines in the world.

Well hell, lets just disband the military then since they're all just warmongering hateful dogs.
You can defend yourself right?

You need to place the blame where it belongs, not on the military as a whole.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: palehorse74
sad.

No, let me tell you what is "sad," palehorse.

Invading a country that never attacked us. That's sad. Trying to fight Islamic Fascism by taking out a secular country in the Middle East. That's sad. Trying to spread democracy by force. That's sad. Causing a war that kills over 600,000 Iraqi people. That's sad. And getting almost 4000 of our own men and women killed doing so. That's sad. The tens of thousands of men and women in uniform who will return to the US missing an arm, or a leg, or their sanity. That's sad. Having to borrow billions of dollars from China to pay for all of this. That's sad. And after all this cluster fuck of sadness, there is still no day in sight that it will ever end. That, palehorse, is sad.

maybe... but that doesnt make this particular event any less tragic -- or sad.

 

[Skitzer]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Noobtastic
Uhhh...it's called war.

Amazing we have people on this forum excuse the murder of an unarmed family...in their beds, in their home...mother, father, brother, sister...under the excuse of "it's war".

Even in war, we are bound by rules of engagement. Look them up junior.

I don't think anyone here is excusing murder. Lets not be so quick to blame the troops who are trying to do the best they can under the circumstances. I know it may be hard but just try and put yourself into the shoes of a Private over there who is just trying to survive and do what he is told under extremely stressful situations.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: palehorse74
sad.

No, let me tell you what is "sad," palehorse.

Invading a country that never attacked us. That's sad. Trying to fight Islamic Fascism by taking out a secular country in the Middle East. That's sad. Trying to spread democracy by force. That's sad. Causing a war that kills over 600,000 Iraqi people. That's sad. And getting almost 4000 of our own men and women killed doing so. That's sad. The tens of thousands of men and women in uniform who will return to the US missing an arm, or a leg, or their sanity. That's sad. Having to borrow billions of dollars from China to pay for all of this. That's sad. And after all this cluster fuck of sadness, there is still no day in sight that it will ever end. That, palehorse, is sad.

maybe... but that doesnt make this particular event any less tragic -- or sad.

It reads like your 'sad' was pointed toward bamacre.

 

[Skitzer]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Noobtastic
Uh, no. I'm not saying those who violate the rules of war shouldn't be punished because it's "war", rather, it should be EXPECTED.

We should expect more than cold-blooded murder from our soldiers. These guys deserve nothing less than a lengthy prison sentence to reflect on the lives they so carelessly ended.

Your fallacies and propaganda might fool some, but not me.

Ditto.

Hmmm .... guilty before proven innocent?

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Skitzer

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Noobtastic
Uhhh...it's called war.

Amazing we have people on this forum excuse the murder of an unarmed family...in their beds, in their home...mother, father, brother, sister...under the excuse of "it's war".

Even in war, we are bound by rules of engagement. Look them up junior.

I don't think anyone here is excusing murder. Lets not be so quick to blame the troops who are trying to do the best they can under the circumstances. I know it may be hard but just try and put yourself into the shoes of a Private over there who is just trying to survive and do what he is told under extremely stressful situations.

While I agree this is a awful tragedy and only further highlights the mess that is Iraq I also agree with you on the troops in Iraq. I don't believe these soldiers deliberately killed this family. I'm more inclined to believe what datalink7 posted.

We are not in their shoes (boots) and it's very convenient to judge them from the comfort of an air conditioned office building.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: datalink7
Here is probably what happened.

Multiple informants inform a US Infantry Company Commander operating in the area that a certain house has armed insurgents wanted by American Forces for crimes against Coalition forces and Iraqi civilians. One says he watched them enter the house recently and they haven't come out. Company Commander plans a raid to apprehend these individuals who are believed to be armed and dangerous.

American troops cordon off the house and then knock down the door and begin to clear. As they enter the sleeping room several males, suprised to find people busting in, jump up and run towards the intruders in confusion.

The leading US soldiers have a fraction of a second to determine if these people have hostile intent or not. If it's at night, this knocks down your vision even more dramatically. The soldiers, believing based on HUMINT that there are armed insurgents, begin to fire. This ends up being the wrong choice, but it wasn't a malicious one.

I bet the story is something more along these lines.

I am in an Infantry Company. I've been here 1 year now, and still have some months to go. I've been operating in an area of Baghdad that has had some of the worst, statistically speaking, of the sectarian violence. We do raids all the time. As of yet, we haven't killed any innocent civilians from entering someones house. We try to be very careful to avoid civilian casualties. But I've been in the above situation I mentioned. We just didn't end up pulling the trigger, luckily.

The way jpeyton is portraying it, he would have you believe US soldiers waltzed in and murdered people while they were sleeping. I very much doubt this was the case. My scenario is much more likely. I would hope that people would listen to my story, as someone who is actually here, as opposed to someone who isn't (which includes the media who, for the most part, hides out in the Green Zone).

I'm not sure the folks around here are interested in any side of the story that doesnt support their pre-conceived notions of the day-to-day events in Iraq. I've been in the same situation myself, and I've seen first-hand what bad intel can lead to. I've kicked down doors only to find a room full of women and kids... I've kicked down doors only to find out later that we had the wrong house, or the target moved on days before we arrived... I've woken families up in the middle of the night, and have even stared down the barrel of a hunting rifle without pulling my trigger.

I've also pulled the trigger when it was necessary. As with Datalink, I was lucky enough to never hit or kill an innocent... but "luck" is probably the key word there.

I also once witnessed the Afghan National Army wipe out a vehicle carrying a family of five, at a checkpoint, because their leading element (down in the village) mistakenly ID'd the family as Taliban trying to evade capture... Was it horrible? YES! Was it a tragedy? ABSOLUTELY! But, was it a crime? Probably not... after all, the soldiers saw a vehicle full of people baring down on them, their forward element said they were bad guys who had just sped around their forward checkpoint, so they ended up pulling the trigger... and fvck, five dead innocent people... DOH!

The sad truth is that civilians will never understand what is truly meant when they hear the ambiguous phrase "the fog of war."

meh..

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: palehorse74
sad.

No, let me tell you what is "sad," palehorse.

Invading a country that never attacked us. That's sad. Trying to fight Islamic Fascism by taking out a secular country in the Middle East. That's sad. Trying to spread democracy by force. That's sad. Causing a war that kills over 600,000 Iraqi people. That's sad. And getting almost 4000 of our own men and women killed doing so. That's sad. The tens of thousands of men and women in uniform who will return to the US missing an arm, or a leg, or their sanity. That's sad. Having to borrow billions of dollars from China to pay for all of this. That's sad. And after all this cluster fuck of sadness, there is still no day in sight that it will ever end. That, palehorse, is sad.

What is sad is that your response to this is to go back five years ago and lay blame on the invasion as if it makes and difference now.

Why stop at 5 years though?

Why not go back and blame Saddam for making the world think he had WMD?
Or blame Clinton for not doing a better job of taking care of AQ in the 90s?
Or Bush 41 for not removing Saddam from power during the first Gulf War?
Or Reagan for supporting Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war?
Or Carter for his weak foreign policy that put the Soviets into Afghanistan and thus led to the Taliban taking power and giving AQ a place to operate out of.

Or why not go all the way back and blame the British for screwing up the Middle East so much in the first place?

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: datalink7
Here is probably what happened.

Multiple informants inform a US Infantry Company Commander operating in the area that a certain house has armed insurgents wanted by American Forces for crimes against Coalition forces and Iraqi civilians. One says he watched them enter the house recently and they haven't come out. Company Commander plans a raid to apprehend these individuals who are believed to be armed and dangerous.

American troops cordon off the house and then knock down the door and begin to clear. As they enter the sleeping room several males, suprised to find people busting in, jump up and run towards the intruders in confusion.

The leading US soldiers have a fraction of a second to determine if these people have hostile intent or not. If it's at night, this knocks down your vision even more dramatically. The soldiers, believing based on HUMINT that there are armed insurgents, begin to fire. This ends up being the wrong choice, but it wasn't a malicious one.

I bet the story is something more along these lines.

I am in an Infantry Company. I've been here 1 year now, and still have some months to go. I've been operating in an area of Baghdad that has had some of the worst, statistically speaking, of the sectarian violence. We do raids all the time. As of yet, we haven't killed any innocent civilians from entering someones house. We try to be very careful to avoid civilian casualties. But I've been in the above situation I mentioned. We just didn't end up pulling the trigger, luckily.

The way jpeyton is portraying it, he would have you believe US soldiers waltzed in and murdered people while they were sleeping. I very much doubt this was the case. My scenario is much more likely. I would hope that people would listen to my story, as someone who is actually here, as opposed to someone who isn't (which includes the media who, for the most part, hides out in the Green Zone).

I'm not sure the folks around here are interested in any side of the story that doesnt support their pre-conceived notions of the day-to-day events in Iraq. I've been in the same situation myself, and I've seen first-hand what bad intel can lead to. I've kicked down doors only to find a room full of women and kids... I've kicked down doors only to find out later that we had the wrong house, or the target moved on days before we arrived... I've woken families up in the middle of the night, and have even stared down the barrel of a hunting rifle without pulling my trigger.

I've also pulled the trigger when it was necessary. As with Datalink, I was lucky enough to never hit or kill an innocent... but "luck" is probably the key word there.

I also once witnessed the Afghan National Army wipe out a vehicle carrying a family of five, at a checkpoint, because their leading element (down in the village) mistakenly ID'd the family as Taliban trying to evade capture... Was it horrible? YES! Was it a tragedy? ABSOLUTELY! But, was it a crime? Probably not... after all, the soldiers saw a vehicle full of people baring down on them, their forward element said they were bad guys who had just sped around their forward checkpoint, so they ended up pulling the trigger... and fvck, five dead innocent people... DOH!

The sad truth is that civilians will never understand what is truly meant when they hear the ambiguous phrase "the fog of war."

meh..

Don't think everyone feels that way. I hate the war in Iraq and I don't buy into the 'fight them over there' theory. That said, I have no animosity toward the troops. Even in a situation like this where innocents are killed I don't have a feeling of outrage. It's a sad incident for sure but unless it was done deliberately I don't see any crime. I'll bet these soldiers feel terrible. Stories like this dehumanize them and IMO that's not fair.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: palehorse74
sad.

No, let me tell you what is "sad," palehorse.

Invading a country that never attacked us. That's sad. Trying to fight Islamic Fascism by taking out a secular country in the Middle East. That's sad. Trying to spread democracy by force. That's sad. Causing a war that kills over 600,000 Iraqi people. That's sad. And getting almost 4000 of our own men and women killed doing so. That's sad. The tens of thousands of men and women in uniform who will return to the US missing an arm, or a leg, or their sanity. That's sad. Having to borrow billions of dollars from China to pay for all of this. That's sad. And after all this cluster fuck of sadness, there is still no day in sight that it will ever end. That, palehorse, is sad.

What is sad is that your response to this is to go back five years ago and lay blame on the invasion as if it makes and difference now.

Why stop at 5 years though?

Why not go back and blame Saddam for making the world think he had WMD?
Or blame Clinton for not doing a better job of taking care of AQ in the 90s?
Or Bush 41 for not removing Saddam from power during the first Gulf War?
Or Reagan for supporting Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war?
Or Carter for his weak foreign policy that put the Soviets into Afghanistan and thus led to the Taliban taking power and giving AQ a place to operate out of.

Or why not go all the way back and blame the British for screwing up the Middle East so much in the first place?

answer: because "Blame Bush!" requires less thought -- and perhaps it also helps them get in good with all the hippy chicks!

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: palehorse74
sad.

No, let me tell you what is "sad," palehorse.

Invading a country that never attacked us. That's sad. Trying to fight Islamic Fascism by taking out a secular country in the Middle East. That's sad. Trying to spread democracy by force. That's sad. Causing a war that kills over 600,000 Iraqi people. That's sad. And getting almost 4000 of our own men and women killed doing so. That's sad. The tens of thousands of men and women in uniform who will return to the US missing an arm, or a leg, or their sanity. That's sad. Having to borrow billions of dollars from China to pay for all of this. That's sad. And after all this cluster fuck of sadness, there is still no day in sight that it will ever end. That, palehorse, is sad.

What is sad is that your response to this is to go back five years ago and lay blame on the invasion as if it makes and difference now.

Why stop at 5 years though?

Why not go back and blame Saddam for making the world think he had WMD?
Or blame Clinton for not doing a better job of taking care of AQ in the 90s?
Or Bush 41 for not removing Saddam from power during the first Gulf War?
Or Reagan for supporting Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war?
Or Carter for his weak foreign policy that put the Soviets into Afghanistan and thus led to the Taliban taking power and giving AQ a place to operate out of.

Or why not go all the way back and blame the British for screwing up the Middle East so much in the first place?

That's such a red herring. He was blaming theBush because this tragic event happened exactly during a war of choice that Bush decided to have. They are directly related as it took place during that very event. All the other things you mentioned are tangently related at best.

As everyone seems to love the drunk driving analogy so much, what bamacre was saying was that if you give the keys to someone and they kill someone while drunk, you are partly responsible because your decision directly led to that situation being possible. The argument you are trying to make is to say that "well if you're going to blame me for giving him the keys, why don't you blame the guy that sold him the car?". This is an obvious fallacy.

 

[Noobtastic]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: palehorse74
sad.

No, let me tell you what is "sad," palehorse.

Invading a country that never attacked us. That's sad. Trying to fight Islamic Fascism by taking out a secular country in the Middle East. That's sad. Trying to spread democracy by force. That's sad. Causing a war that kills over 600,000 Iraqi people. That's sad. And getting almost 4000 of our own men and women killed doing so. That's sad. The tens of thousands of men and women in uniform who will return to the US missing an arm, or a leg, or their sanity. That's sad. Having to borrow billions of dollars from China to pay for all of this. That's sad. And after all this cluster fuck of sadness, there is still no day in sight that it will ever end. That, palehorse, is sad.

What is sad is that your response to this is to go back five years ago and lay blame on the invasion as if it makes and difference now.

Why stop at 5 years though?

Why not go back and blame Saddam for making the world think he had WMD?
Or blame Clinton for not doing a better job of taking care of AQ in the 90s?
Or Bush 41 for not removing Saddam from power during the first Gulf War?
Or Reagan for supporting Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war?
Or Carter for his weak foreign policy that put the Soviets into Afghanistan and thus led to the Taliban taking power and giving AQ a place to operate out of.

Or why not go all the way back and blame the British for screwing up the Middle East so much in the first place?

That's such a red herring. He was blaming theBush because this tragic event happened exactly during a war of choice that Bush decided to have. They are directly related as it took place during that very event. All the other things you mentioned are tangently related at best.

As everyone seems to love the drunk driving analogy so much, what bamacre was saying was that if you give the keys to someone and they kill someone while drunk, you are partly responsible because your decision directly led to that situation being possible. The argument you are trying to make is to say that "well if you're going to blame me for giving him the keys, why don't you blame the guy that sold him the car?". This is an obvious fallacy.

Neglected to include the following factor:

Exhausted and emotionally drained soldiers - the result of unplanned tours of duty and reduction in VA benefits (thanks to Bush!)

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: Robor

Don't think everyone feels that way. I hate the war in Iraq and I don't buy into the 'fight them over there' theory. That said, I have no animosity toward the troops. Even in a situation like this where innocents are killed I don't have a feeling of outrage. It's a sad incident for sure but unless it was done deliberately I don't see any crime. I'll bet these soldiers feel terrible. Stories like this dehumanize them and IMO that's not fair.

I thank you for your thoughts. I can totally respect the viewpoint of others who don't agree with the Iraq war. I encourage everyone to vote their opinion on that matter. And not everyone in the military agrees with the war either.

I mostly only post to clarify what it is like for the soldier who is actually on the ground. And my personal experiences. Disagree with the war all you want, but to dehumanize (as you pointed out) the soldiers on the ground is just wrong. Most everyone over here is trying to do the best that they can in a near impossible situation.