UPenn swimmer takin' names and setting records!

[killster1]

Just another case of not being good enough to hang with the boys so lets just switch teams. Nah bro, if you want to switch go ahead, but forfeiting the privilege to compete in athletics should go along with it.

nah we just have to wait for a few years so they can have their own league, of course its INSANE to allow this

 

[Leeea]

I think most of you are completely wrong on this subject.


This should be decided by the sports governing bodies.

Nobody else. Not you. Not your favorite politician. Not your preacher.

 

[PowerEngineer]

I think most of you are completely wrong on this subject.


This should be decided by the sports governing bodies.

Nobody else. Not you. Not your favorite politician. Not your preacher.

Thank you for deciding for us who should do the deciding? 😋

Frankly, I am surprised by your seemingly absolute faith in sports governing bodies given their recent histories of athlete abuse. I wouldn't put them in a more trustworthy category that politicians, preachers, or P&N posters. Perhaps it would be better to share your thoughts on what basis a decision in each sport should be made.

FWIW, it seems obvious (at least to me) that sports that have split competition into men's and women's categories have done so because there are judged to be significant differences in the abilities conferred by XX and XY genes (as nickqt has framed this) in those sports. It seems strange to me that a person's declared gender identity would be enough to change the category in which he/she is allowed to compete. Maybe a better case can be made depending on the commitment to that gender identity through hormone treatments and/or surgical changes - if those changes brought their abilities more in line with their gender identity? I am not sure what the right answer is, but issues like the one that sparked this discussion suggest to me that we haven't got it right yet.

 

[TheVrolok]

The answer is simple for me. If I were to be of athletic age, and wished to become a female, I would be bound by my own moral sensibilities not to participate in competitive athletic sports.

This is entirely too reasonable for P&N.

 

[interchange]

The answer is simple for me. If I were to be of athletic age, and wished to become a female, I would be bound by my own moral sensibilities not to participate in competitive athletic sports.

Sure, but don't you know the world is all about judging others?

 

[zinfamous]

The swimmer is an asshole.

After not able to become better than a second rate male swimmer, just popping some hormone pills, growing out your hair then joining the women's league to run up cheap victories is just offensive to everyone. Certainly not fair to natural female athletes who've worked their asses off their whole lives to get there.

We're assholes if we can't call that out.

...so you're saying that the reason "he became a woman" was to compete in sports with an unfair advantage. Like, "choosing" to now be a woman was spiteful, petty decision on her part?

That's what your post is saying. it's one thing to look at the reality of how fair this might be, but half of you are arguing against this kind of competition from the basis that you see it as someone specifically choosing to "change genders" as a competitive advantage, and nothing more.

slow your roll.

 

[kitkat22]

So in response to XX and XY leagues. So we we get everyone tested? You do know there are dozens of genetic variations to XY = male and XX = female. Look up CAIS. How about SRY translocation to an XX individual? It's not that easy.

I agree what is happening is not fair to women. We are seeing it. These individuals have a competitive advantage. I even mentioned it's not just muscle mass but lung volumes and heart mass, too.

I agree with Moonbeam as well but I also recognize for some that is unlikely.

On the flip side, I wish to see transgender individuals respected. We are laughed at and mocked all the time. I have people under breath making rude comments all the time. Just yesterday, at a restaurant, someone said under their breath, "seriously?" I was wearing a fleece jacket and scrubs as I just came from work. Not really even dressing the part. I have very obvious features to suggest it but even then it was minimized.

So where do we go? I think as things stand now letting transgender individuals compete is more complicated and unfair. But even saying that is simplistic. Who determines that a person is truly XX? I would not be surprised if we start down that road we will find dozens of genetic variations (intersex) that alter our approach.

 

[HomerJS]

I heard that swimmer story last week. When they were male he was average. A few years later female and shattering records. It's completely unfair to the other females on the team.

Because of the inherent physical advantages of being born male I don't favor them competing in women's sports

I do have a constructive question, if you take the times of Lia Thomas and move those times to the male swimmers how do they hold up?

 

[BUTCH1]

So in response to XX and XY leagues. So we we get everyone tested? You do know there are dozens of genetic variations to XY = male and XX = female. Look up CAIS. How about SRY translocation to an XX individual? It's not that easy.

I agree what is happening is not fair to women. We are seeing it. These individuals have a competitive advantage. I even mentioned it's not just muscle mass but lung volumes and heart mass, too.

I agree with Moonbeam as well but I also recognize for some that is unlikely.

On the flip side, I wish to see transgender individuals respected. We are laughed at and mocked all the time. I have people under breath making rude comments all the time. Just yesterday, at a restaurant, someone said under their breath, "seriously?" I was wearing a fleece jacket and scrubs as I just came from work. Not really even dressing the part. I have very obvious features to suggest it but even then it was minimized.

So where do we go? I think as things stand now letting transgender individuals compete is more complicated and unfair. But even saying that is simplistic. Who determines that a person is truly XX? I would not be surprised if we start down that road we will find dozens of genetic variations (intersex) that alter our approach.

The sad part is this person's actions are the exact thing the right will cling to like a barnacle and go on and on about it bringing a whole negative vibe to Trans people they don't deserve or want.

 

[brycejones]

So in response to XX and XY leagues. So we we get everyone tested? You do know there are dozens of genetic variations to XY = male and XX = female. Look up CAIS. How about SRY translocation to an XX individual? It's not that easy.

I agree what is happening is not fair to women. We are seeing it. These individuals have a competitive advantage. I even mentioned it's not just muscle mass but lung volumes and heart mass, too.

I agree with Moonbeam as well but I also recognize for some that is unlikely.

On the flip side, I wish to see transgender individuals respected. We are laughed at and mocked all the time. I have people under breath making rude comments all the time. Just yesterday, at a restaurant, someone said under their breath, "seriously?" I was wearing a fleece jacket and scrubs as I just came from work. Not really even dressing the part. I have very obvious features to suggest it but even then it was minimized.

So where do we go? I think as things stand now letting transgender individuals compete is more complicated and unfair. But even saying that is simplistic. Who determines that a person is truly XX? I would not be surprised if we start down that road we will find dozens of genetic variations (intersex) that alter our approach.

The genetic variations make it tough some females have higher amounts of natural testosterone than others should they be banned from competition because of the competitive advantage it gives?

 

[Greenman]

I don't understand why this has to be complicated. If your born with a penis you compete against males, if you're born with a vagina you compete against females. If you're the one in a million that doesn't fit either category you're out of luck.

 

[vi edit]

...so you're saying that the reason "he became a woman" was to compete in sports with an unfair advantage. Like, "choosing" to now be a woman was spiteful, petty decision on her part?

That's what your post is saying. it's one thing to look at the reality of how fair this might be, but half of you are arguing against this kind of competition from the basis that you see it as someone specifically choosing to "change genders" as a competitive advantage, and nothing more.

slow your roll.

There's over 7.5 billion people on this planet and not every one of us make rational choices. You have former NBA and NFL players fleecing their peers through fraudulent medical insurance claims. Doping has been a thing for decades. People packing fake dicks to get around drug tests. Some dude in Italy used a fake arm to try and bypass getting vaccinated. Another guy in NZ took 10 doses to try and tank it for some other people that didn't want to get vaccinated.

It's possible that one or two people out of a couple billion can make some decisions to try and be more competitive that don't make sense to the rest of us.

 

[brycejones]

I don't understand why this has to be complicated. If your born with a penis you compete against males, if you're born with a vagina you compete against females. If you're the one in a million that doesn't fit either category you're out of luck.

But we know you're simple and unable to deal with nuance so I am sure you're not the best equipped to deal with this issue.

 

[mect]

It's not not a hard thing to get right. Men are by and large stronger than women. That's proven every single day in sports. Men that translon into women keep a great deal of that advantage. What's difficult to understand about that? Transsexuals' competing against women in sports have a natural and unfair advantage. The proof is right in front of us. It's a glaring injustice to the women that have poured heart and soul into being the best to be beaten by someone they shouldn't have had to compete against.
The answer is simple, don't do it.

Ignorant people rarely encounter hard problems.

 

[vi edit]

I think it was in the anti-vaxx thread that we talked about freedom not being the ability to do whatever you want. It's being able to make decisions or say things, but there could be consequences to it.

If you show up to a white nationalist party with tiki torches you can do that. You may lose your job or friends if it's made public you were there.

My wife is a clinical pharmacist and is offered weekly to move over the dark side of drug companies as a med science liaison. She hasn't done it to date because once she does she black lists herself from really ever working as a pharmacist again.

If you want to get a face tattoo that's your choice, but it likely greatly limits your work opportunities.

This is the hardest thing I really have to do as a parent...give enough rope to my kids to let them make some decisions, but being able to teach them that there are possibly negative outcomes based on that.

And that's where I am with this. Moonbeam sort of touched on it. It is a decision to go through a reassignment surgery. And it will have outcomes that alter your life. This is one of them. We don't have a sports infrastructure setup to really address this properly and it just doesn't feel fair to the overwhelming majority of athletes to have to question if their competitors had an advantage because of it. Until there is some kind of formal "open" class or a coed format you are going to continue to have these concerns.

I was born with one kidney. I didn't realize it until a fluke diagnostic test in high school. I was playing football and had to move to non-contact sports. I was working with military recruiters to help pay for college and that ended abruptly. As much as it sucks, there are some natural inequalities and there are just some things that we might have to adjust our lifestyle towards based on them or decisions we make.

I'm all for advocating for transgender protection in employment and general society being accepting. But as I said earlier, sports specifically is a bit of third rail to me because of the doubt it raises in the other athletes.

 

[MichaelMay]

Gender is one thing. How or whether you "identify" is personal.

That said, your genes do matter in multiple ways, especially in regards to hormone production, regardless of hormone therapy.

Seems to be an easy fix.

XX genes - XX League

XY genes - XY League.

"Gender" still remains irrelevant.

This is one way that the normies find "identity" to be a disruption and I agree with them. I'd argue that sports should be totally extra-curricular, as in outside of schools altogether, but I digress.

Female/Male is better considering that genetics is extremely messy.

 

[MichaelMay]

I think most of you are completely wrong on this subject.


This should be decided by the sports governing bodies.

Nobody else. Not you. Not your favorite politician. Not your preacher.

Remember the outrage when the International Handball Federation (the governing body for that sport) demanded that the Norwegian beach handball team had to show a certain amount of ass?

Are you sure you want them to be in charge? They'll bend to popularity without any concerns of fairness based on scientific evidence.

 

[vi edit]

This is one way that the normies find "identity" to be a disruption and I agree with them. I'd argue that sports should be totally extra-curricular, as in outside of schools altogether, but I digress.

That's a whole 'nuther thread worth discussing. "Travel teams" that aren't affiliated with schools are basically killing youth sports. It's turning into a pay to play and letting the rest of the programs die on the vine at the cost of low income kids getting fucked over and not being able to compete.

 

[vi edit]

I think most of you are completely wrong on this subject.


This should be decided by the sports governing bodies.

Nobody else. Not you. Not your favorite politician. Not your preacher.

Frankly it should be up to the athletes. Ultimately they are the ones that are competing and have to live with the thought that they were beat by someone that had an unfair advantage. But good luck getting a bunch of crusty old white people giving that kind of power to youths, let alone young women.

 

[Gardener]

So in response to XX and XY leagues. So we we get everyone tested? You do know there are dozens of genetic variations to XY = male and XX = female. Look up CAIS. How about SRY translocation to an XX individual? It's not that easy.

I agree what is happening is not fair to women. We are seeing it. These individuals have a competitive advantage. I even mentioned it's not just muscle mass but lung volumes and heart mass, too.

I agree with Moonbeam as well but I also recognize for some that is unlikely.

On the flip side, I wish to see transgender individuals respected. We are laughed at and mocked all the time. I have people under breath making rude comments all the time. Just yesterday, at a restaurant, someone said under their breath, "seriously?" I was wearing a fleece jacket and scrubs as I just came from work. Not really even dressing the part. I have very obvious features to suggest it but even then it was minimized.

So where do we go? I think as things stand now letting transgender individuals compete is more complicated and unfair. But even saying that is simplistic. Who determines that a person is truly XX? I would not be surprised if we start down that road we will find dozens of genetic variations (intersex) that alter our approach.

Changing men's sports to open to all genders, while maintaining women's sports with more restrictions. Seems like this all comes down to case-by-case management, driven by the issue of competitive fairness.

If the pool of athletes was large enough AND free enough to not live in hiding, then have a competitive category for transgender athletes.

We already make accommodation in sports for age, eligibility, and weight. This is simply another metric.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

And nature isn't binary, so applying binary rules isn't going to work.

I realize stories like these are gasoline that fuel the conservatives culture war fire, But let's not go overboard on this.

 

[TheVrolok]

I think it was in the anti-vaxx thread that we talked about freedom not being the ability to do whatever you want. It's being able to make decisions or say things, but there could be consequences to it.

If you show up to a white nationalist party with tiki torches you can do that. You may lose your job or friends if it's made public you were there.

My wife is a clinical pharmacist and is offered weekly to move over the dark side of drug companies as a med science liaison. She hasn't done it to date because once she does she black lists herself from really ever working as a pharmacist again.

If you want to get a face tattoo that's your choice, but it likely greatly limits your work opportunities.

This is the hardest thing I really have to do as a parent...give enough rope to my kids to let them make some decisions, but being able to teach them that there are possibly negative outcomes based on that.

And that's where I am with this. Moonbeam sort of touched on it. It is a decision to go through a reassignment surgery. And it will have outcomes that alter your life. This is one of them. We don't have a sports infrastructure setup to really address this properly and it just doesn't feel fair to the overwhelming majority of athletes to have to question if their competitors had an advantage because of it. Until there is some kind of formal "open" class or a coed format you are going to continue to have these concerns.

I was born with one kidney. I didn't realize it until a fluke diagnostic test in high school. I was playing football and had to move to non-contact sports. I was working with military recruiters to help pay for college and that ended abruptly. As much as it sucks, there are some natural inequalities and there are just some things that we might have to adjust our lifestyle towards based on them or decisions we make.

I'm all for advocating for transgender protection in employment and general society being accepting. But as I said earlier, sports specifically is a bit of third rail to me because of the doubt it raises in the other athletes.

Jesus another entirely too reasonable post for P&N. Well said.

 

[MichaelMay]

And nature isn't binary, so applying binary rules isn't going to work.

I realize stories like these are gasoline that fuel the conservatives culture war fire, But let's not go overboard on this.

My position is as follows: Let's look at how to make this as fair as we can by studying the issue and go wherever the evidence leads.

If there is something that can be done to make it more fair, lets do that.

 

[BoomerD]

But we know you're simple and unable to deal with nuance so I am sure you're not the best equipped to deal with this issue.

But he's right.

 

[woolfe9998]

I think it was in the anti-vaxx thread that we talked about freedom not being the ability to do whatever you want. It's being able to make decisions or say things, but there could be consequences to it.

If you show up to a white nationalist party with tiki torches you can do that. You may lose your job or friends if it's made public you were there.

My wife is a clinical pharmacist and is offered weekly to move over the dark side of drug companies as a med science liaison. She hasn't done it to date because once she does she black lists herself from really ever working as a pharmacist again.

If you want to get a face tattoo that's your choice, but it likely greatly limits your work opportunities.

This is the hardest thing I really have to do as a parent...give enough rope to my kids to let them make some decisions, but being able to teach them that there are possibly negative outcomes based on that.

And that's where I am with this. Moonbeam sort of touched on it. It is a decision to go through a reassignment surgery. And it will have outcomes that alter your life. This is one of them. We don't have a sports infrastructure setup to really address this properly and it just doesn't feel fair to the overwhelming majority of athletes to have to question if their competitors had an advantage because of it. Until there is some kind of formal "open" class or a coed format you are going to continue to have these concerns.

I was born with one kidney. I didn't realize it until a fluke diagnostic test in high school. I was playing football and had to move to non-contact sports. I was working with military recruiters to help pay for college and that ended abruptly. As much as it sucks, there are some natural inequalities and there are just some things that we might have to adjust our lifestyle towards based on them or decisions we make.

I'm all for advocating for transgender protection in employment and general society being accepting. But as I said earlier, sports specifically is a bit of third rail to me because of the doubt it raises in the other athletes.

First of all, I agree with the majority here that mtf tg's shouldn't be competing in women's sports, especially at high levels. It isn't fair to biologically female athletes.

That aside, some of your analogies are flawed. No one is born predisposed to want a face tattoo. But people are born gay, and some at least seem to be born with a predisposition to identify with the gender to which they were not assigned at birth. So it isn't that simple as being a choice for people in that category. In the old days, people born gay made a choice to live as straight people, but it wasn't really a fair dilemma to impose on them. So it isn't just a matter of personal choice. It's also a question of the tolerance of others.

So people make choices in part based on how others will react. That employers prefer employees without face tattoos is one thing. That they may prefer someone who is straight, or white, or male, or non-TG, is another. Because people are predisposed to belong to those categories and in the case of gays and TG's, their only "choice" is to pretend to be someone they are not.