[UPDATED 3/2!!!] Getting counteroffer'd to DEATH...

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: skyking
Never tell somebody you are quitting where you are going. Keep that to yourself. You gave them both ammo to continue a moot point, an additional club for beating on the dead horse.

Yeah, I questioned ahead of time whether I should divulge any information, but I erred on the side of showing them enough respect (mistake) to not be totally silent about the situation.

In hindsight, I simply would have said "that's not important".

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: skyking
Never tell somebody you are quitting where you are going. Keep that to yourself. You gave them both ammo to continue a moot point, an additional club for beating on the dead horse.

Yeah, I questioned ahead of time whether I should divulge any information, but I erred on the side of showing them enough respect (mistake) to not be totally silent about the situation.

In hindsight, I simply would have said "that's not important".

Sometimes it is entertaining to the new company to listen to the old employer whine about who they are poaching, stealing, etc., their employees.

 

[theeedude]

Just leave, they just want to entice you to stay long enough for them to find your replacement.
Oh yeah, this one is very precious coming from a guy who is trying to pay you as little as possible:

Boss: Life isn't always about money, jbourne77.... "

At this point, I would laugh at his face and walk out.

 

[Fraggable]

If it's a bad work environment, they need to change it, not ask their underlings to help them change it. Keeping good people around is fine but they need to be actively working to change it themselves by eradicating the bad ones. If they're not showing signs of that the don't believe them, they're just being lazy and trying to keep someone who does real work without taking care of the issue.

I think you did the right thing. Now that it's over, what is the downside of the decision? You're getting a raise, hopefully a better working environment, and something you still at least halfway enjoy? I think the only thing you're losing is whatever relationship and stability you had from being there 8 years.

 

[spidey07]

You're doing your mind a great favor by getting out of their.

That is a downright hostile environment if there ever was one. Speak to an attorney to see if you have any recourse for this harassment.

 

[TheTony]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
Boss: Some people advance their careers through building and cultivating important relationships such as the one you and I have; others build their careers by changing jobs every few years.

Depending on the environment, all too often that "cultivating and building" is a euphemism for playing politics...

I agree with your assesment. I could be wrong, but it seems apparent that his interest in "cultivating" that relationship is to exploit it when neccesary.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: TheTony
Depending on the environment, all too often that "cultivating and building" is a euphemism for playing politics...

I agree with your assesment. I could be wrong, but it seems apparent that his interest in "cultivating" that relationship is to exploit it when neccesary.

You have no idea how right you are. This is essentially the realization I came to not too long ago. He's a "user", and he will take and take and take and he won't give an inch until he's backed into a corner like a scared cat... and even then, there's no guarantee on the promises he makes in order to get himself out of that corner.

 

[preslove]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
Here's another snippet from yesterday when it became obvious to him that he had worn me down to the point where I was doubting myself:

Boss: You know, you can't analyze this situation the way you analyze the challenges in your job. You just need to strip the nuts and bolts away from this and go with your gut.

Me: My gut has been telling me that the right decision is to take this other position.

Boss: Some people advance their careers through building and cultivating important relationships such as the one you and I have; others build their careers by changing jobs every few years. If you want to be the latter and that works for you, then I guess that's okay.

Me = PISSED

Me: I'm 29 years old and have worked for TWO COMPANIES in my 9 year professional career. EIGHT of those years I was working for you!!! I'm not a "job hopper" and if I DIDN'T value relationships such as the one you and I have, I wouldn't have allowed this to continue for 3 days! Ironically, if you valued our relationship as much as you claim, I don't think YOU would have allowed this to continue for 3 days just out of simple professionalism and respect.

All hell kind of broke loose at that point and we parted ways for lunch.

Don't show up tomorrow. Don't call, don't email, don't answer any communication. Call Monday morning and say that the next time they ask for any more time or do a counteroffer you are gone.

Really, you are sounding like a little bitch. You have given them all the respect required, but they are acting like total assholes. You leaving them and their reaction already means that the bridges are burned and that they will do whatever they can to screw you after you leave. Staying another week (your second) isn't going to help your career. Be a man and don't let them manipulate you.

 

[SmoochyTX]

I agree with preslove above about not going back to work after today. If I were you, I'd start packing my stuff up about 15 minutes before you leave today and then don't look back after you walk out their door.

Then enjoy the rest of this week and next stress-free.

 

[Stuxnet]

The problem with flat-out sticking it to my boss is a) it's not really taking the high road, and b) we know a lot of the same people and if those people got wind of me screwing him over, I could be jeopardizing my relationships with them... including my last supervisor, who comes in extremely handy whenever I need a reference. Being able to direct a prospective employer to one of your previous bosses, and then have that boss give you a glowing recommendation, is like having the job in the bag before you even interview.

 

[Suture]

I started my career in IT in 1997 -- if there was one thing I learned from our Senior Developer quickly it's that you can pull the "I'm leaving" card once. Any more and it's asking to get canned.

 

[Mellman]

from what it sounds like - i would've done the same you did. it sounds like you have a good relationship with your boss so being open with them is exactly what i would've done in your situation. Now - I dont know all the details of your situation - i've been following it - but still. I would have a very hard time saying 'sure i'll come back' even with the extra money being there. Lifes too short to stress over a job. i think before you said you don't live to work - you work to live. I would really rather sit down with the VP and P, and discuss HOW things are going to be different first, if they cannot give you a firm answer, I'd walk.

However - if you can go in, discuss what you will be doing differently - how THEy will be working differently, and have something that says if its not changed - you are free to go - then sure. (unrealistic perhaps?)

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
Here's another snippet from yesterday when it became obvious to him that he had worn me down to the point where I was doubting myself:

Boss: You know, you can't analyze this situation the way you analyze the challenges in your job. You just need to strip the nuts and bolts away from this and go with your gut.

Me: My gut has been telling me that the right decision is to take this other position.

Boss: Some people advance their careers through building and cultivating important relationships such as the one you and I have; others build their careers by changing jobs every few years. If you want to be the latter and that works for you, then I guess that's okay.

Me = PISSED

Me: I'm 29 years old and have worked for TWO COMPANIES in my 9 year professional career. EIGHT of those years I was working for you!!! I'm not a "job hopper" and if I DIDN'T value relationships such as the one you and I have, I wouldn't have allowed this to continue for 3 days! Ironically, if you valued our relationship as much as you claim, I don't think YOU would have allowed this to continue for 3 days just out of simple professionalism and respect.

All hell kind of broke loose at that point and we parted ways for lunch.

Dude, you gotta elaborate on the 'all hell breaks loose' part of the story! This is quite entertaining

 

[preslove]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
The problem with flat-out sticking it to my boss is a) it's not really taking the high road, and b) we know a lot of the same people and if those people got wind of me screwing him over, I could be jeopardizing my relationships with them... including my last supervisor, who comes in extremely handy whenever I need a reference. Being able to direct a prospective employer to one of your previous bosses, and then have that boss give you a glowing recommendation, is like having the job in the bag before you even interview.

Considering how they are treating you, I seriously doubt that your bosses are going to do anything other than talk a whole lot of sh!t about you, even to the point of out and out lying. I would recommend calling all of your shared contacts and explaining situation to them and *Ask-For-Advice*. Tell them how unprofessionally they are treating you and how you don't trust them, blah-blah-blah. Prepare them so that when your current bosses INEVITABLY talk sh!t about you they are prepared and will be less quick to believe the lies.

Trust me, your scummy bosses are going to try to screw you, no matter what you do. It is more important that you preempt them than it is to try to mollify them.

Do not try to reason with these douches, that is the sucker's way out.

 

[JS80]

i would call in sick the next 2 weeks.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: jbourne77
All hell kind of broke loose at that point and we parted ways for lunch.

Dude, you gotta elaborate on the 'all hell breaks loose' part of the story! This is quite entertaining

That's actually kind of difficult, because my memory fails me in heated situations like that. The gist of it is that he just went off on me about how he's just trying to look out for my and my career and I'm showing a total lack of appreciation for his efforts.

Perhaps I don't remember much of it because it was all a crock of sh*t.

 

[kranky]

I'll tell you, I am impressed by the way you've handled this from what I've read of the conversations. It seems like they think you'll crack if they keep beating on you. Perhaps that's worked for them in the past with others.

If you want to drive them crazy while maintaining professionalism, try this.

Boss: <ranting about what a mistake you're making>
You: I appreciate your thoughts, but my decision is final.
Boss: <telling you why you're wrong>
You: I understand, but my mind is made up.
Boss: <badmouthing the other company>
You: I see. But I have made my decision.

Repeat as required.

The key is to avoid a conversation. Let them rant, cajole, whine, harass all they want. You respond with a variation of the above responses. Eventually they will get tired of repeating themselves.

 

[KoolAidKid]

You are doing the right thing by taking the high road here. Burning bridges may be satisfying, but other than that there are no benefits from doing so. Remain friendly and courteous for the rest of your time there and then move on.

 

[Accipiter22]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
So I resigned Monday. Initially, it went as expected. I told my long-time mentor and boss that I was leaving due to atmosphere/managerial/culture issues; issues that are undeniable and are openly discussed at my company on a daily basis. No surprises there.

This is the third time I've quit on him and our company's President. Second time at this company, and one time at a previous company. At the previous company, I was severely underpaid. The first time at this company, I could not tolerate the organizational structure (micromanaged to hell and back), etc.

Basically, I've put these two through a hell of a lot... but in all fairness, they've put me through quite a bit, too, and I've made them a good deal of money.

But now we were in Day 3 of "Coerce jbourne77 Into Staying". At no point was it really flattering. I was already aware of my value to the company. I wanted to quit and be done with it. My resignation letter and verbal speeches left to room for imaginative thought: I was quitting, and that was final.

VP: What can I do to change your mind.
Me: Nothing. This is my final decision.

President: Do you want to take a night to think about it?
Me: If I said 'yes', it would only be so I could put off confronting you with my final decision, so no... I want to avoid that so we can all prepare for my departure.

Give my relationship with these two gentlemen, I felt I owed it to them to be open and honest about the reasons why I'm leaving. I'm getting a 20% raise, but it's not about the money (though it sure as hell doesn't hurt). This process began because of the amount of stress employees are under and the negative energy in the air.

They're offering to change it all up. "Bourne, we'll be as creative and forward-thinking as we need to be in order to keep you here. We need people like you here so we can fix the problems you describe."

Yeah, he's got a point. They can't fix the problems if they can't retain good people. Fair enough... and I believe him when he says they'll do whatever they can to fix things.

The Problem
Even if I wanted to entertain the counteroffer (which I really didn't at first... I had made my peace with leaving, and now that peace has been torn to shreds over the last few days), I'm well aware of the fact that this is the THIRD TIME I've put them through this. They've ASSURED me that, because they can understand why I want to leave and they've known me for so long, they don't question my loyalty and integrity. Not only do I have a hard time believing that (if I were them, I would feel differently), but I already make - on average - 15% more than my peers and 20% - 25% more than those reporting to me. I'm not comfortable creating an even greater disparity between my salary and everyone else's for several obvious reasons (guilt, I'll stick out like a sore thumb on paper, etc).


I just needed to vent. I'm supposed to give my boss my "final decision" (for the 14th time in three days) later this afternoon. I don't know if I came here for advice, but I've analyzed the situation so much at this point that I'm all but mentally paralyzed.

If you choose to stay at a pay hike, they'll immediately begin looking for your replacement. Flee. You have another job in-hand with a pay raise. Go for it. Good luck!

 

[sixone]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: TheTony
Depending on the environment, all too often that "cultivating and building" is a euphemism for playing politics...

I agree with your assesment. I could be wrong, but it seems apparent that his interest in "cultivating" that relationship is to exploit it when neccesary.

You have no idea how right you are. This is essentially the realization I came to not too long ago. He's a "user", and he will take and take and take and he won't give an inch until he's backed into a corner like a scared cat... and even then, there's no guarantee on the promises he makes in order to get himself out of that corner.

Sounds like my ex-husband. Leaving was the best thing I ever did.

I'm really impressed by your taking the high road in the face of all the BS. :beer:

 

[Bryophyte]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
Here's another snippet from yesterday when it became obvious to him that he had worn me down to the point where I was doubting myself:

Boss: You know, you can't analyze this situation the way you analyze the challenges in your job. You just need to strip the nuts and bolts away from this and go with your gut.

Me: My gut has been telling me that the right decision is to take this other position.

Boss: Some people advance their careers through building and cultivating important relationships such as the one you and I have; others build their careers by changing jobs every few years. If you want to be the latter and that works for you, then I guess that's okay.

Me = PISSED

Me: I'm 29 years old and have worked for TWO COMPANIES in my 9 year professional career. EIGHT of those years I was working for you!!! I'm not a "job hopper" and if I DIDN'T value relationships such as the one you and I have, I wouldn't have allowed this to continue for 3 days! Ironically, if you valued our relationship as much as you claim, I don't think YOU would have allowed this to continue for 3 days just out of simple professionalism and respect.

All hell kind of broke loose at that point and we parted ways for lunch.

He sounds like he's taking this 'relationship' thing pretty personally, acting like you cheated on him and want to break up, drama and guilt trips and all.

 

[shopbruin]

holy hell, i'm going through the EXACT SAME situation as you. today i finally came to peace with leaving, now i am told to expect a counter offer. i just gave them my resignation today!

just tell yourself you will be in a better place than you believe you are in now. they may come and make promises but those promises don't always come through. BELIEVE ME. i've been through this before.

what they're doing to you just doesn't seem right. hopefully you can walk away unscathed.

 

[Shadowknight]

If you're interested in taking the high road, do this:

Boss: We think you're making a mistake. (this is the 50th time he tries to strong arm you into staying)
You: I need to get back to work. I AM leaving at the end of next week, and I feel it is in both my and your best interest to do what I can for the business while I still work here, as well as prepare my successors to enable the smoothest transition after I leave.

Hey, it's basically a nice way to say "get bent and stop wasting my time."

 

[TXHokie]

A good boss who really looks out for you would congratulate you on making a change to enhance your career and paycheck and not give you the guilt trip. Congrats.

 

[Phokus]

Jbourne, you should start a blog, i like reading posts about your job... are you ever going to reveal the name of the place you're leaving anytime soon?