update: new geforce beta drivers 301.25

[chimaxi83]

sorry but your vision is not good if you don't ever see tearing below 60 fps. did you even look at the video I linked too? if you cant see the obvious tearing there then I dont see how any other graphical setting would be noticeable to you either.

Another useless post. I saw the video, and the "tearing at 30 fps". Wonderful phone video, really it is, but without system specs, game, settings, it and your opinion are useless to me. Sorry bud.

Edit: If you call it "tearing" regardless of FPS above or below display refresh rate, why does Nvidia differentiate between tearing above display refresh, but stuttering below display refresh?

Nvidia on frame rate target:

frame rates can be capped to the monitor’s refresh rate, preventing tearing without enabling VSync.

Source

 

[toyota]

Another useless post. I saw the video, and the "tearing at 30 fps". Wonderful phone video, really it is, but without system specs, game, settings, it and your opinion are useless to me. Sorry bud.

Edit: If you call it "tearing" regardless of FPS above or below display refresh rate, why does Nvidia differentiate between tearing above display refresh, but stuttering below display refresh?

Nvidia on frame rate target:



Source

Nvidia is just trying to keep things simple there. they know that most tearing usually occurs above refresh rate and that is all.

you saw the video and it shows tearing at just 25-30 fps. what difference do the specs or settings make? tearing is tearing whether its with a gtx580 on high settings or an 8600gt on low settings. really you have just proved how little you know about this subject though so probably not much point in wasting time responding to you.

 

[Ferzerp]

why does Nvidia differentiate between tearing above display refresh, but stuttering below display refresh?

The picture shows that you get the benefit of vsync above 60 fps (no tearing), but also the benefit of no vsync below 60 fps (you aren't reducing your framerate even lower by using vsync.) That's why "no tearing" is above 60 fps in the picture.

The way frames are displayed is that there are two memory locations that have a frame. The front buffer and the back buffer. The front buffer is displayed, and the back buffer is what is being updated. When the time comes to flip to a new frame, without vsync, the back buffer may be half-updated (and you get a torn image). This is unrelated to framerate. It will happen above or below 60 fps.

The only time you won't have tearing is with vsync (I can only flip to a new frame if a new frame is complete, and I will never draw over frame that has yet to be displayed), or if you are triple buffering. If you're using triple buffering, you have 1 displayed frame (front buffer) and 2 back buffers. One of the back buffers is always a solid image, and the other is always an image that is being redrawn (and so is torn). The displayed image is always the one that is the solid image. Once an image completes, if the other buffered image has yet to be displayed, it the new frame will begin being written in that buffer, and the next frame will pull from the one just completed.

 

[felang]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about Beta Drivers not VSYNC. I finally got my 680 today and was just wondering if I should use these drivers right off the bat...

 

[toyota]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about Beta Drivers not VSYNC. I finally got my 680 today and was just wondering if I should use these drivers right off the bat...

well adaptive vsync is a new feature that's in the beta drivers so of course its going to be discussed...

yeah I would go ahead use this driver for you gtx680.

 

[chimaxi83]

Nvidia is just trying to keep things simple there. they know that most tearing usually occurs above refresh rate and that is all.

you saw the video and it shows tearing at just 25-30 fps. what difference do the specs or settings make? tearing is tearing whether its with a gtx580 on high settings or an 8600gt on low settings. really you have just proved how little you know about this subject though so probably not much point in wasting time responding to you.

lol poor guy, you're a dick, no way around that. You take things way too seriously bud, don't let you inferiority complex out you on the internet. Oops.

The picture shows that you get the benefit of vsync above 60 fps (no tearing), but also the benefit of no vsync below 60 fps (you aren't reducing your framerate even lower by using vsync.) That's why "no tearing" is above 60 fps in the picture.

The way frames are displayed is that there are two memory locations that have a frame. The front buffer and the back buffer. The front buffer is displayed, and the back buffer is what is being updated. When the time comes to flip to a new frame, without vsync, the back buffer may be half-updated (and you get a torn image). This is unrelated to framerate. It will happen above or below 60 fps.

The only time you won't have tearing is with vsync (I can only flip to a new frame if a new frame is complete, and I will never draw over frame that has yet to be displayed), or if you are triple buffering. If you're using triple buffering, you have 1 displayed frame (front buffer) and 2 back buffers. One of the back buffers is always a solid image, and the other is always an image that is being redrawn (and so is torn). The displayed image is always the one that is the solid image. Once an image completes, if the other buffered image has yet to be displayed, it the new frame will begin being written in that buffer, and the next frame will pull from the one just completed.

Nice, thanks :thumbup: I guess part of my ignorance on this is that triple all I've been playing lately is BF3 and I haven't seen any issues. Going to be more observant now though, I'm curious.

Ditch the attitude.
-ViRGE

 

[toyota]

lol poor guy, you're a dick, no way around that. You take things way too seriously bud, don't let you inferiority complex out you on the internet. Oops.




Nice, thanks :thumbup: I guess part of my ignorance on this is that triple all I've been playing lately is BF3 and I haven't seen any issues. Going to be more observant now though, I'm curious.

so you keep calling me a dick to make yourself feel better? I show you a video of tearing and you come up with ridiculous excuses and act like a jerk about it instead of just admitting you were wrong about tearing never happening below 60 fps.

 

[chimaxi83]

lol I'm not making excuses, reading comprehension fail, and I'm not wrong about anything, seeing as how I said that I don't see tearing below 60 FPS. I don't. [redacted] deal with it, get over it, quit crying about it.

I'm asking for explanations, which is obviously outside the grasp of your mental capacity. Go reread our posts, see who's being the dick. Given your history, it should be easy for you to see.

Done with you, little guy

You have a serious attitude problem. Also, you have a filthy mouth. Unless you would like a vacation and a mouth full of soap, I suggest you treat your fellow posters better
-ViRGE

 

[toyota]

lol I'm not making excuses, reading comprehension fail, and I'm not wrong about anything, seeing as how I said that I don't see tearing below 60 FPS. I don't. Fucking deal with it, get over it, quit crying about it.

I'm asking for explanations, which is obviously outside the grasp of your mental capacity. Go reread our posts, see who's being the dick. Given your history, it should be easy for you to see.

Done with you, little guy

so again with the insults? you originally said "When my FPS is at or below my refresh rate of 60 Hz, I never get tearing". then you quote the Nvidia article acting like tearing does not occur below refresh rate. so yes you acted like tearing did NOT occur below refresh rate and you were wrong about that.

 

[chimaxi83]

You want to keep beating yourself over it dude? Its sad. My statement is relative to MY eyes and perception. Again, get over it. Go outside and play, you're obviously tense.

 

[felang]

well adaptive vsync is a new feature that's in the beta drivers so of course its going to be discussed...

yeah I would go ahead use this driver for you gtx680.

Thanks... just saw my post again and realized I might of come off as a douche... so sorry guys .
So what would be the difference performance wise from using Adaptive Vsync instead of Frame Rate Target Control (set to 60fps) in Precision X?

 

[toyota]

Thanks... just saw my post again and realized I might of come off as a douche... so sorry guys .
So what would be the difference performance wise from using Adaptive Vsync instead of Frame Rate Target Control (set to 60fps) in Precision X?

framerate target is just going to cap you at whatever you set it to and adjust gpu speeds accordingly to stay at that framerate. adaptive vsync will simply make vsync kick in when above your refresh rate and kick off when below your refresh rate. if you set your framerate cap below your refresh rate and use adaptive vsync then vsync will never kick in anyway so you might as well just leave it off if doing that.

whats worked great for me on my 60hz monitor is capping my framerate at 62 for all my games. then I choose to use adaptive vsync or not on a game by game basis.

 

[RobertR1]

New drivers really [screwed] things up for me. TDR issues.

massive slow down in Dota 2 when I launch the game. Only way to fix it to launch MSI Afterburner, choose a profile. Pure garbage.

No profanity in the tech forums please
-ViRGE

 

[BoFox]

vsync+triplebuffering+slightly below the vsync rate frame cap = smooth

best get your eyes checked.



No triplebuffering does not add 16ms, at the worst its an additional 4ms

4ms would only be true for 240Hz monitors (which do not exist). EDIT- Hint: Virge said that triple buffering adds an additional "frame" of input lag. 1/60Hz (for 60Hz monitors) means 16.67ms of lag.

 

[Majic 7]

Found an odd bug. If I have a second monitor hooked up but not being used I get 5 to 7 FPS in the Witcher 2 with SLI enabled. With SLI disabled I get 60. Unhook the second monitor and everything works as it should.

 

[Diceman2037]

4ms would only be true for 240Hz monitors (which do not exist). EDIT- Hint: Virge said that triple buffering adds an additional "frame" of input lag. 1/60Hz (for 60Hz monitors) means 16.67ms of lag.

the third frame is not always shown, and when it is it does not add another entire frame of latency because of how triplebuffering works.

the graphics cards generates both backbuffers at roughly the same time, so the third frame can be sent to the display immediately after the second in most cases.

 

[ViRGE]

the third frame is not always shown, and when it is it does not add another entire frame of latency because of how triplebuffering works.

the graphics cards generates both backbuffers at roughly the same time, so the third frame can be sent to the display immediately after the second in most cases.

This is only the case in OpenGL. In Direct3D it's a queue; every frame rendered must be shown.

 

[Diceman2037]

its also the case in D3D where the game has built in TB support.

 

[Lonbjerg]

and I thought all 120hz monitor owners claimed they got little to no tearing?

There is a lot of postualtes that are flawed about GPU's.
Even if microstuttering has been identified...some people still claim it isn't there.

I have read people claming that 120Hz monitors elliminates tearing...which is false.

The problem is that not all people are wired the same.
Some people are fine with a 60hz CRT (I am not)
Some people cannot percieve miccrostutter (I can)
Some people cannot percieve tearing (I can)
Some people don't not notice jaggies (I do)

The problem is when absolute claims are made on a flawed subjective foundation...which can be debunked by hard data.

 

[Diceman2037]

sorry Virge, i was half asleep and explaining it all muddled up

There is not an "additional" 16ms latency, the chain from front buffer to backbuffer 1 or 2 or 1-2-3 is always 16ms a frame. I can see where you're going though, you're meaning the case where the third frame has actually been suddenly invalidated because of user input (which is where the case of opengl being able to discard the third buffer comes in handy). The delay is still the same as doublebuffering, however the effect is more percieved with D3D because it appears to hang onto the image longer than it should.

 

[Diceman2037]

There is a lot of postualtes that are flawed about GPU's.
Even if microstuttering has been identified...some people still claim it isn't there.

I have read people claming that 120Hz monitors elliminates tearing...which is false.

The problem is that not all people are wired the same.
Some people are fine with a 60hz CRT (I am not)
Some people cannot percieve miccrostutter (I can)
Some people cannot percieve tearing (I can)
Some people don't not notice jaggies (I do)

The problem is when absolute claims are made on a flawed subjective foundation...which can be debunked by hard data.

IT is false, however i can't blame them for thinking it doesn't occur

from what i've seen, the higher the framerate even on a 60hz display, the faster tearing appears and disappears making it difficult to catch in a fast action game.

 

[Conditioned]

If 1 frame of input lag is really an issue, simply disable vsync altogether for much more responsive gameplay (critical for fast-paced twitch games like online fps or racing games). Tearing will be present (just like whenever the adaptive vsync is running at a lower fps), but ameliorated with higher refresh rates (edit: if you can afford a 120Hz monitor ).

Triple buffering with vysnc is is not that noticeable over "normal" double buffering vysnc, especially when comparing against disabled vsync. Moreover, many DX10/11 games automatically call for a triple buffer whenever vsync is enabled.

Also, to further minimize input lag (sometimes at the cost of lowering frame rate) is to reduce the maximum pre-rendered frames from default 3 to 0. IIRC, only Nvidia's offering this feature.. not that I'm a NV spokesperson!

In the 300 driver series Nvidia has disabled the option to choose 0 pre rendered frames. I have made a thread on the nvidia forums, please pitch in if you think it can help (I do).
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=230701

 

[Diceman2037]

it doesn't help at all. any difference you see from 0 to 1 is completely in your head.

 

[toyota]

it doesn't help at all. any difference you see from 0 to 1 is completely in your head.

using "0" was a must to keep Bioshock from hitching on several sets of drivers a while back.

 

[Mike89]

Well I for one have learned something from this thread. I was one who was convinced tearing only happened above monitor refresh rate (with vsync off). Back in the days when I had a crt monitor with my refresh rate set at 100 hz, I never noticed any tearing in games and I played them all with vsync off. When I got my LCD (60 hz) everything changed. I noticed tearing all over the place and vsync became necessary to me or I would be teared to death!

Now here all this time I've hard wired myself to thinking all the tearing was going on above refresh rate. Then Adaptive came along and I thought it was the answer to vsync's "halving" fps characteristics which was irritating. Then I started noticing something using it in games. Some games it seemed to work perfect without me noticing any tearing (like Deus Ex Human Revolution for example where previously I couldn't even use vsync cause it lagged the game so much it was unplayable to me). Then other games it didn't seem to work right like Borderlands 2 where there was so much tearing going on it was pitiful. I don't use any fps counters playing games so I was thinking the tearing was going on in Borderlands 2 because "Adaptive" wasn't consistently turning on vsync when fps exceeded the refresh rate. Now after reading here, it seems the tearing I was seeing was actually when vsync was being turned off when fps went below refresh rate.

Woah! This "Tearing Below Refresh Rate" thing is tripping me out. I must be a real dumb ass and now need to retrain my brain now on everything I thought I knew about vsync. I'm no rookie either, I've been playing PC games since Quake (playing with 8 mb video cards). I still wonder back in the crt days why I never noticed tearing cause you'd think a lot of the time the fps was below my 100 hz refresh rate. I thought I wasn't seeing it then because the games rarely exceeded my fresh rate.

Dazed and Vsync Confused. Gotta go find that Led Zeppelen song and contemplate!