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Upcoming Radeon HD 6000 Series Is All-New Architecture

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DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
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Second, you don't need a die shrink to deliver more performance. If you were not aware, the 9800GTX was on 65nm and the GTX 280 was also on 65nm. The GTX 280 offered a good 35% to 40% more performance than the 9800GTX.
The 9800GTX was 324MM^2. The GTX 280 576mm^2.
We're not talking about a 78% increase in die area with the 6000 series, now are we?

I think you miss the point, sir. AMD's new midrange 6 series card is going to make the GTX 460 unappealing, as their new cards will offer better performance for the same dollar.
You miss the point. Why would you assume AMD would price them that way when the entire 5000 series isn't priced that way?
Having a performance advantage means you can jack the price, as AMD did with the 5870 and 5850. The 5850 is still selling for $20 over its own launch price even though it's performance no longer warrants it.
If AMD won't lower the price of the 5850 to reflect its performance, what makes you think a hypothetical 6770 at >5850 performance will be priced thousands of dollars less?
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,080
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The 9800GTX was 324MM^2. The GTX 280 576mm^2.
We're not talking about a 78% increase in die area with the 6000 series, now are we?



You miss the point. Why would you assume AMD would price them that way when the entire 5000 series isn't priced that way?
Having a performance advantage means you can jack the price, as AMD did with the 5870 and 5850. The 5850 is still selling for $20 over its own launch price even though it's performance no longer warrants it.
If AMD won't lower the price of the 5850 to reflect its performance, what makes you think a hypothetical 6770 at >5850 performance will be priced thousands of dollars less?
Do you know the die size of the 6870 ? Please enlighten us. Most everything that has been released about the upcoming chips so far in reference to die size is saying it's a bigger die. The increased power requirement in 8+6pin speaks to this.

Pointing to an increase in die size of 9800gtx to gtx 280 does nothing but further fortify the invalidity of your statement that the 6870 is not going to offer significantly more performance because it is not on a die shrink. In fact you just made the argument for the 6870 bringing a new performance level to market, because of the information stating it is going to be a larger die.

You have just done an about face from your node shrink position and now are going to an argument over die size.

What's next ? Simply because you say so ?

As for the 460 vs 6770 situation.

The GTX 460 is the only card that currently has any foothold in the market as a threat to AMD's sales that they do not have a direct counter to. They could of countered by dropping 5850 to its price but obviously didn't go that way.

Seems coincidental that we keep hearing they want to release their mid-range part first in the 6770. I wonder why ?

I have no idea where there is some sort of appeal in the idea of only one company delivering more performance to us as video card enthusiasts.

I don't give a rat's *** who brings it out as long as they bring it. Currently AMD has been delivering the best performance on a quicker schedule to the consumer than nvidia has.

Why anyone would balk at getting a new mid-range card that outdoes what is currently available is beyond me, unless they have some sort of personal financial stake in one company doing better than the other. Otherwise it's irrational.
 

tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
6,733
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Do you know the die size of the 6870 ?
Nobody on here knows the die size of the 6870 anymore than they know what the exact performance will be of the 6770.

Getting excited over an unreleased midrange product that has many unknown variables or assuming it will automatically be better than a current product is naive.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
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The 9800GTX was 324MM^2. The GTX 280 576mm^2.
We're not talking about a 78% increase in die area with the 6000 series, now are we?



You miss the point. Why would you assume AMD would price them that way when the entire 5000 series isn't priced that way?
Having a performance advantage means you can jack the price, as AMD did with the 5870 and 5850. The 5850 is still selling for $20 over its own launch price even though it's performance no longer warrants it.
If AMD won't lower the price of the 5850 to reflect its performance, what makes you think a hypothetical 6770 at >5850 performance will be priced thousands of dollars less?

Well, besides the die increasing in size, we have to remember that AMD is reworking their shaders. We have no idea how other things in the core will change, or stay the same. But current rumors point to more efficient shaders, a larger die, and more tessellation power. So it's possible that the increases won't be huge, but I could also see many situations where a large (say 30%) increase will be possible. I wouldn't discount large gains just because the die size isn't rumored to be increased like a 9800GT -> GTX280 level.

*edit - I think another good example would be the 3870 -> 4870. The 3870 was 192mm2, the 4870 is 256mm2. Both 55nm. That is some 33% more size for what was generally much more than 33% more performance. I think often a 4870 was 2x as fast as a 3870.
 
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Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
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The 9800GTX was 324MM^2. The GTX 280 576mm^2.
We're not talking about a 78% increase in die area with the 6000 series, now are we?
RV670 was 192mm^2
RV770 was 260mm^2

4870 was 35% larger, but a lot more than 2x faster than 3870 with essentially the same architecture and same manufacturing process.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,391
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Do you know the die size of the 6870 ? Please enlighten us. Most everything that has been released about the upcoming chips so far in reference to die size is saying it's a bigger die. The increased power requirement in 8+6pin speaks to this. Pointing to an increase in die size of 9800gtx to gtx 280 does nothing but further fortify the invalidity of your statement that the 6870 is not going to offer significantly more performance because it is not on a die shrink.
Do you not fully read what you are blowing your load over? I assumed you had and therefore would incorporate that into what I wrote. I guess I was wrong.
Here:

toyota said:
The end point to take away is that the Radeon HD 6000 series is a new architecture, and that more than helps explains some of these insane early benchmarks that have been floating around. Die sizes are said to be about 10-15% bigger across the board, but the performance also looks to be 60%+ higher in some cases; more than a fair tradeoff.
10-15%. No die shink.

Skurge said:
4870 was 35% larger, but a lot more than 2x faster than 3870 with essentially the same architecture and same manufacturing process.
4870 has GDDR5. It stomps on the 4850 too.
Nobody's saying the 6000 series will have GDDR6 or 7. If they were then there's an avenue for such an improvement. As there is not, there is not.
 
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Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
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4870 has GDDR5. It stomps on the 4850 too.
Nobody's saying the 6000 series will have GDDR6 or 7. If they were then there's an avenue for such an improvement. As there is not, there is not.
4850 is still almost 2x faster than a 3870 and it has less bandwidth.

And another thing. the 6000series might have 7gbps GDDR5 that is almost twice as fast the GDDR5 on a 4870, it could also have a 384bit bus. Those are all plausible.
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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4870 has GDDR5. It stomps on the 4850 too.
Nobody's saying the 6000 series will have GDDR6 or 7. If they were then there's an avenue for such an improvement. As there is not, there is not.
That didn't make much difference. It did make some difference, I assume it would especially help at high AA/res. But from what I remember, once the 4850 was overclocked to similar core clocks as the 4870 it was within a few percentage often. I want to say something like within 5% of the 4870.

Looking at the AT Radeon 4850 review (staying with a DDR3 card to eliminate the possible DDR5 advantage) the 4850 is anywhere between 16% faster than a 3870 to 70% faster. That's a GPU that was built on the same process as the 3870.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2553/6

So depending on what voodoo AMD has in store for the 68xx I could certainly see similar gains. In some games it may not be much of a jump. In other games it might be a monster upgrade.
 

MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
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You know things are looking good for AMD when NVIDIA's shills are out in full force and this scared. :D

Here's what I find interesting - the leaked benches we've seen so far are of a card that is 30-40% faster than a GTX 480. For the sake of argument, I'll assume they're legit (hell, even Wizzard said the screens of GPU-Z looked original). I'm going to guess that means AMD really is following up with the 6970 right after, as I doubt the "6870" will have that kind of performance.

The other thing I'm wondering is if the 6870 will have performance that's on par with the 5850/5870. After all, it's supposed to have 320SP. I can't wait until next month :D.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,143
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this rumor seems little hard to believe since most sources close to amd up to now is saying it's just a hybrid. and I don't see how amd can finish the new design so quickly either. my guess is a revised edition of the hd5xxx is more plausible at this point. of course all new core is much more welcome if true.
you haven't been paying attention if you think that. they've been working on it for years, heck it's even been a year since their 2nd refresh of the 4 series that they called 5 series.
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
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I don't know why you guys are arguing with Wreckage.

When the 4850x2 was cheaper and faster than the GTX 285, Wreckage would say "dual GPU cards do not matter, only single GPU cards do". When the 5870 came out and the GTX 295 was a tad faster in half of the benchmarks, Wreckage would say "the only thing that matters is who has the performance crown, it doesn't matter if it is dual GPU or not and DX11 doesn't matter". When the 5970 came out, Wreckage would say "the only thing that matters is market share, it's obvious that whoever has the most market share has the best cards, whoever has the performance crown doesn't matter". And when the GTX 480 came out, Wreckage would say "the only thing that matters is the single GPU performance king, dual GPU cards do not matter and DX11 is the most important thing there is" And when it was realized that Nvidia is actually the new underdog when it comes to marketshare, Wreckage stopped saying marketshare was important.

:rolleyes:
 
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SolMiester

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2004
5,331
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You know things are looking good for AMD when NVIDIA's shills are out in full force and this scared. :D

Here's what I find interesting - the leaked benches we've seen so far are of a card that is 30-40% faster than a GTX 480. For the sake of argument, I'll assume they're legit (hell, even Wizzard said the screens of GPU-Z looked original). I'm going to guess that means AMD really is following up with the 6970 right after, as I doubt the "6870" will have that kind of performance.

The other thing I'm wondering is if the 6870 will have performance that's on par with the 5850/5870. After all, it's supposed to have 320SP. I can't wait until next month :D.

I thought only the mid range cards are coming out this year?, if so, then NV has nothing to worry about...And if the high end cards dont come out until next year, who is to say NV doesnt have Fermi 2 ready?
You know things are looking good for NVIDIA when ATi shills are out in full force are bleating about products not even close to released...yawn!
 

MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
3
81
I don't know why you guys are arguing with Wreckage.

When the 4850x2 was cheaper and faster than the GTX 285, Wreckage would say "dual GPU cards do not matter, only single GPU cards do". When the 5870 came out and the GTX 295 was a tad faster in half of the benchmarks, Wreckage would say "the only thing that matters is who has the performance crown, it doesn't matter if it is dual GPU or not and DX11 doesn't matter". When the 5970 came out, Wreckage would say "the only thing that matters is market share, it's obvious that whoever has the most market share has the best cards, whoever has the performance crown doesn't matter". And when the GTX 480 came out, Wreckage would say "the only thing that matters is the single GPU performance king, dual GPU cards do not matter and DX11 is the most important thing there is" And when it was realized that Nvidia is actually the new underdog when it comes to marketshare, Wreckage stopped saying marketshare was important.

:rolleyes:
Great summary :D
I thought only the mid range cards are coming out this year?, if so, then NV has nothing to worry about...And if the high end cards dont come out until next year, who is to say NV doesnt have Fermi 2 ready?
You know things are looking good for NVIDIA when ATi shills are out in full force are bleating about products not even close to released...yawn!
Looks like a struck a chord :). Where's NVIDIA's benchmarks? Or leaked photos of hardware? And I don't mean any with wood screws.
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,080
1,218
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Agreed...new architecture or not, same crap ATi driver team..LOL
This is that same cowpile about drivers we hear all the time.

Currently GTX 460 and 460 SLI has huge issues for many users with gpu usage, stuttering and poor performance with current drivers.

4XX series SLI also has tons of issues with current drivers.

For the past three weeks nvidia has been promising a fix each week, and each week it has been delayed again. Still nothing.

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=170238&st=380
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=306622&page=9

The driver thing is such a pile. I use cards from both companies and they both have issues, none more than the other.
 

ZimZum

Golden Member
Aug 2, 2001
1,281
0
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I thought only the mid range cards are coming out this year?, if so, then NV has nothing to worry about...And if the high end cards dont come out until next year, who is to say NV doesnt have Fermi 2 ready?
You know things are looking good for NVIDIA when ATi shills are out in full force are bleating about products not even close to released...yawn!
Given that the midrange (460) is the only portion of NV's current lineup thats actually selling, I would think NV does have something to worry about.
 

SolMiester

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2004
5,331
17
76
This is that same cowpile about drivers we hear all the time.

Currently GTX 460 and 460 SLI has huge issues for many users with gpu usage, stuttering and poor performance with current drivers.

4XX series SLI also has tons of issues with current drivers.

For the past three weeks nvidia has been promising a fix each week, and each week it has been delayed again. Still nothing.

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=170238&st=380
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=306622&page=9

The driver thing is such a pile. I use cards from both companies and they both have issues, none more than the other.
No, surely not a full 3 weeks?....LMAO!
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,143
32
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I think you miss the point, sir. AMD's new midrange 6 series card is going to make the GTX 460 unappealing, as their new cards will offer better performance for the same dollar. Or perhaps better performance for $30 more as the 460 continues to get further slashed in price as nvidia tries to fire sale them before AMD drops their new cards.

Now is not a good time to buy a GTX 460, in another month you'll be able to get a more powerful, second-generation DX11 card from AMD in the same price bracket.

Second, you don't need a die shrink to deliver more performance. If you were not aware, the 9800GTX was on 65nm and the GTX 280 was also on 65nm. The GTX 280 offered a good 35% to 40% more performance than the 9800GTX.

So there is no voodoo here. AMD is releasing a new architecture, and everyone will get to enjoy the the new levels of performance from it, if they choose to purchase one. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

When AMD's 6870 flagship comes late this year it will be significantly faster than a GTX 480. It is second generation DX11, and will deliver as such.
that's a very poor example to use. gtx 280 was a lot bigger than 9800gtx. 3870 to 4xxx is better analogy, much better performance without ballooning the gpu up into a shaq look-alike.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,143
32
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Wreckage will you accept that amd makes faster video cards than nvidia? Can you acknowledge that hd5000 has outsold GTX400 8:1?

This is probably really really tough for you to do. Take a minute and a deep breath and come up with something good before you go on the ignore list. I'd like to read one last worth-while post from you.
please provide evidence of a single worth-while post.

damnit, I have one, he posted the hot deal for that gtx 460 a couple weeks ago.

ok, a worthwhile post that's actually in the video cards forum.
 

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