Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: illusion88
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: illusion88
OMG ARE YOU PEOPLE INSANE??
I can't believe you. Even if someone else had a gun at VTech, do you really think they would have shot the killer? Is it there responsibility, their duty? Here in Utah, we had a shooting at a mall not too long ago. In this mall there were 6 people with CCW on them. Yet they hid and or ran, like they should have. It's not their job to take the law into their own hands. It's not any citizens job! It's not what you do!! Do you all want to be heroes is that it? Shoot the bad guy after he pops one or two people to prevent more loss of life. I hope one of you do, and I am going to laugh when they throw your ass in jail for murder.
What happened in UT and VA was a crime, but it is up to no one except the officers of the law to do anything about it. You people are crazy.
And yet an off-duty cop was credited with helping to distract the assailant and may have even fired the kill shot that ended the rampage in Utah. He was doing what at the time? Concealed carry.
But the major difference between him and every other CCW in the mall at the time is the fact that he is an off duty police officer. He is still a cop, regardless if he is on duty or not.
There is NOTHING special about a cop. They are not inherently better trained, more moral, more intelligent, more wise, stronger, faster, or anything else. They just happen to have a job that gives them a uniform. Furthermore there is NO requirement for a cop to risk himself to save anyones sorry butt. They make the EXACT same decisions as anyone else when they choose to respond.
I think you mean TSA Agent... not Cop.
IIRC... and I could be wrong here... But I'm pretty sure that there are these places called POLICE ACADEMIES and prospective cops have to go there for MONTHS and learn all sorts of COP stuff.
Yes, but it's like training for any job in that it covers a WIDE variety of skills/topics, as well as a bunch of garbage. What I mean is if you take any specific skill of a police officer (marksmanship, understanding of law, self-defense, etc) there is an equal or better civilian equivalent. Just because you're a cop doesn't mean you're a good shot for instance...in fact it's quite common for them to be fairly dismal and have trouble passing their requalifications. That's the case with pretty much everything. Then there's issues like intelligence, wisdom, morality, etc. Obviously that's the same as for anyone else so there's no increased likelihood of an officer having any of those either. Therefore to claim superiority of someone just because they're a cop is silly. They're nothing more than adequately trained for their job. Any civilian 'could' have exactly the same knowledge, skills, etc. Or they could have more or less of course. Point is, being a cop doesn't make you inherently better at anything, including responding to emergencies.
I am pretty sure 500 pound Bubba, who has trouble breathing and lil old 24 year blond college girl who never shot a gun in her life save to get the safety training for her CCW will have less of a chance of living versus a police officer whose job is to be prepared for these situations. As it stands, if I lined up 100 Citizens chosen at random from a mall how many could you say could take down a mall shooter? It would be a shot in the dark
If I lined up 100 police officers, you could reasonably say that because of the standard of training they go through, every one of them would have a good shot at taking down the mall shooter.
So sorry, your "cops are no better than anyone else" opinion is seriously flawed.
I disagree completely. Rather or not individuals choose to train themselves in matters of combat is beyond the scope of the conversation. The point is that police are not more intelligent, not more moral, not more capable, etc. The point was that anyone could be equally or superiorly capable without being a police officer. I never said everyone is more ready for combat, I said anyone could be and police weren't somehow endowed with special abilities by nature of their career choice. That stands as simple fact.
As to who can drop a mall shooter, the answer is absolutely anyone, trained or not. Humans are naturally endowed with an impressive set of abilities...adrenaline raises strength, stress heightens focus, etc. Anyone who has fired a gun once a year for a couple years is equally trained in marksmanship as most law enforcement is, and most people I know who carry concealed practice a heck of a lot more than that. Let's not forget that the mall shooter is on equal footing with everyone else regarding opportunities for training and ability, so anyone has as much chance against him as he has against them. Furthermore the ONLY person who has a chance against a mall shooter is the person who's there when the shooting starts. I don't give a damn if Ad Topperwein is on the local police force...if he isn't in the mall when it starts then my grandmother has more chance to drop the shooter than he does.
I'd sure as hell rather see people at least trying to save themselves and those around them instead of praying the cavalry shows up in time. Anyone who claims that people don't even have that right to try is, quite frankly, more dangerous than the shooters themselves.
Edit: I just thought I'd go a bit further to counter the 'average joe' comments that always seem to creep up in these discussions. I live in a county of 30,000 people. I thought I'd give a brief synopsis of the people most often around me in order to establish who you are likely to run into in the local mall. I note hunting experience not only for shooting experience but also for the ideas related to stalking prey, which does apply even when the prey is human. Anyone listed as a ccw holder has not only taken numerous classes (from me or others on the list), but also goes shooting at least 4-6 times a year to keep in practice. I note fireman/nurse/emt or other emergency services to suggest experience responding to emergencies (obviously military personnel are also in this category). Numbers are roughly rounded as I don't always remember exactly (but I tend to remember if they were in the military long enough to retire, etc).
Me: 2 years military, 12 years security, expert marksman, ccw holder, firearm instructor, self-defense instructor
Father: 3 years military, expert marksman, lifetime hunter
Brother: ccw holder, 10 years martial arts training
Sister-in-law: ccw holder, 2 years martial arts training
Nephew: 6 years martial arts training, amateur mma fighter, ccw holder
Nephew's best friend: lifetime hunter, ccw holder
Sister: 4 years military, expert marksman, ccw holder
Sister's boyfriend: retired police officer, ccw holder
Ex-brother-in-law: 4 years military, expert marksman, ccw holder, lifetime hunter, volunteer police officer, volunteer fireman/emt
Sister's best friend: 16 years military, expert marksman, trauma nurse, ccw holder
Sister's best friend's boyfriend: 20+ years military, expert marksman, fireman, ccw holder
Friend #1: prior reserve police officer, firearm instructor, 15-20 years security, ccw holder
Friend #2: 10 years martial arts training, ccw holder
Friend #2 wife: ccw holder
Optometrist: firearm instructor, 18 years military, expert marksman, ccw holder
History teacher #1: 6 years military, expert marksman, firearm instructor, ccw holder
History teacher #2: firearm instructor, expert marksman, nationally ranked marksman, ccw holder
Pharmacist: firearm instructor, expert marksman, ccw holder
Supervisor: former reserve police officer, expert marksman, ccw holder, lifetime hunter
Manager: ccw holder, firearm instructor, lifetime hunter
Co-worker #1: 8 years military, expert marksman, retired police officer, ccw holder
Co-worker #2: 4 years military, ccw holder
Friend from gym: 2 years military, ccw holder
Ex-co-worker from gym: ex reserve police officer, 12 years martial arts, professional mma fighter
Librarian: self-defense instructor, firearm instructor, lifetime of martial arts, ccw holder
So there's 25 semi-random people living in a small town who I would rate as equal to any on-duty officer in matters of combat and/or emergency response. If you wanted 75 more I could probably come up with them by thinking about it for a while. Granted that's only 100 out of 30,000...but those are also just the ones that I personally know and interact with frequently. You have to imagine that there are plenty more out there. Generally speaking the 'average joe's' you see on the street are fairly likely to have some combat or emergency response experience. Maybe not on par with a 20 year police veteran, but more than adequate to match a random shooter.
Facebook
Twitter