Unions: I'm Part Of One. IBEW

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
Unless replacement employees can be hired no matter what, then unions should be outlawed.

WTF? I agree that many unions go too far and end up hurting productivity, but if unions were to disappear overnight things would get progressively worse. It was unions who won the 40 hour workweek, overtime, health benefits, the 15-minute break, and many other things we take for granted. Outlawing unions would make slaves of us all in a few decades.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
1) US Law today covers this. There is no value-add from a union here.

2) So basically, you're admitting that unions are a form of extortion because they make it difficult to complete large projects without the help of the union.

3) Except that in Toledo, OH, where I grew up, the non-union shops produced higher-quality results and paid their workers more than union shops because the company didn't have the union protecting incompetent workers.

4) My experience being in a union (UFCW) and talking with several friends who work in the HVAC industry (I do not know what union covers HVAC) has been the opposite. We all agree that the non-union jobs we've had were greatly superior to the union jobs. Non-union jobs mean that you advance according to talent, hard work, and ability, and do not have inept co-workers who can't be fired. Union jobs mean that even if you're the best person there, some moron who has no value but has been there 10 years longer will be paid more because of "seniority".

Unions today are a drain on society. I will never belong to a union again, and I will never hire any company that uses union workers. Unions had their place before the US legal system caught up with industrialization, but they have become nothing more than an expensive redundancy.

ZV

True.

BTW, OP - I deal with the IBEW all the time - well not directly but with their electricians. When I have a choice - I usually pick the non-union shop for installs. It saves me time, money, and hassle. I can go on the job site and direct the workers if need be(no political BS) and I can turn a screwdriver if need be(usually can't when union electricians are used)
My jobs have to come in on budget and on time - I can't be delayed by Union BS.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: jdobratz
My experience with unions:

I was in Las Vegas supervising the setup of my company's booth at a trade show. Part of our display was a stand with a little pool of water in it. We had to get a union plumber $300 to come hook up a hose and put about 15 gallons of water in the display tub. I could not do this myself, the faucets were all locked. I love unions!

And you would be bitching here if your company hired a plumber to work your booth and sent you home.

 

[meltdown75]

no more ATOTers in the woodwork that have no experience with unions wanna pop out to whine about unions? i'm surprised... come on ATOT... slackin' tonight..

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

Originally posted by: TheSiege

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
1) US Law today covers this. There is no value-add from a union here.

2) So basically, you're admitting that unions are a form of extortion because they make it difficult to complete large projects without the help of the union.

3) Except that in Toledo, OH, where I grew up, the non-union shops produced higher-quality results and paid their workers more than union shops because the company didn't have the union protecting incompetent workers.

4) My experience being in a union (UFCW) and talking with several friends who work in the HVAC industry (I do not know what union covers HVAC) has been the opposite. We all agree that the non-union jobs we've had were greatly superior to the union jobs. Non-union jobs mean that you advance according to talent, hard work, and ability, and do not have inept co-workers who can't be fired. Union jobs mean that even if you're the best person there, some moron who has no value but has been there 10 years longer will be paid more because of "seniority".

Unions today are a drain on society. I will never belong to a union again, and I will never hire any company that uses union workers. Unions had their place before the US legal system caught up with industrialization, but they have become nothing more than an expensive redundancy.

ZV

this is the most ignorant thing I have ever read. non union contractors simply don't have the man power. they just cant staff enough people do such large work.

union contractors can make a call into the hall to get more workers. people who are being mistreated, (forced to work further from home then needed. being abused by superiors, and so on) can drag up and take the call and go somewhere more desirable.

ever hear of labor staffing companies? Tradesman international, CLC, etc. I can call tomorrow and get 20-30 people ready to work within a few days. Hell there about as expensive as union labor but they dont have that elitist attitude.

LOL!

And nowhere near the skill. Companies like that are the labor equivalent of sex escort ads. What they promise and who shows up at your door are 2 very different things.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: waggy
the reason foreign labor is cheap is because they do not use the UAW. sadly the uaw is the one of the big reasons that US automotive industry is so screwed and can not compete.

of course so is the fact that they can't design a car that most people want.

you try designing a $25,000 car that is as good as or better than your competitor's $25,000 car when you have $2,500 more in labor costs than him.

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: waggy
the reason foreign labor is cheap is because they do not use the UAW. sadly the uaw is the one of the big reasons that US automotive industry is so screwed and can not compete.

of course so is the fact that they can't design a car that most people want.

you try designing a $25,000 car that is as good as or better than your competitor's $25,000 car when you have $2,500 more in labor costs than him.

I don't give a shit if you have an extra 2500 in labor costs, you build a better car AND give us more benefits or we're gonna STRIKE.

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: waggy
the reason foreign labor is cheap is because they do not use the UAW. sadly the uaw is the one of the big reasons that US automotive industry is so screwed and can not compete.

of course so is the fact that they can't design a car that most people want.

you try designing a $25,000 car that is as good as or better than your competitor's $25,000 car when you have $2,500 more in labor costs than him.

I don't give a shit if you have an extra 2500 in labor costs, you build a better car AND give us more benefits or we're gonna STRIKE.

...and your industry will collapse. Congratulations unless your skills at operating an industry specific machine are transferable to another job or you can speak Japanese or Korean you're SOL.

While as an owner I take into account whats best for the company AND whats best for the employees (they are directly related in my mind) you as a union laborer only take into account whats best for you.

 

[aplefka]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: aplefka
How can you disagree with the writer's strike? It's been 20 years since the last contract. You can't tell me things haven't changed enough in mass media in the past 20 years that they don't deserve to get some new things hammered out.

i don't think anyone disagrees they should be paid. i think the problem is how they went about it.

How should they have gone about it? Their contract was up and none of the CEOs were buying into what they wanted. If you're unhappy with your current situation and you have the opportunity to do something about it you're telling me you wouldn't? What other way could they have gone about this?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
Unless replacement employees can be hired no matter what, then unions should be outlawed.

So you want to outlaw Americans right ot organize? Are you some kind of facist? While your at it, why not outlaw all Political Parties except the one you belong too?

 

[soonerproud]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

...and your industry will collapse. Congratulations unless your skills at operating an industry specific machine are transferable to another job or you can speak Japanese or Korean you're SOL.

While as an owner I take into account whats best for the company AND whats best for the employees (they are directly related in my mind) you as a union leader only take into account whats best for you.

Corrected to reflect reality. The majority of Union leadership in America could care less about what is best for the laborer. Here are few things that prove my point.

1. Laborers will usually lose more than they gain during a strike. My dad was a member of the Teamsters for 15 years. In that time (That I can remember) there were two strikes where my dad lost his house, car and destroyed his credit. Even with increased pay and benefits, my dad never fully recovered from those two strikes. The Union however gained millions in extra dues and had more money to pilfer from the pension plan. Now who benefited most from those strikes?

2. Unions were responsible for the shutting down of the steel industry in the Rust Belt. In the late 70's and early 80's there was a flood of cheap steel from other countries and right to work states. The steel mills approached the Union and it's members about a cut in pay and benefits to save their jobs and to continue operations. The Union leadership rallied the members to oppose any cut in pay and benefits because the union stood to loose millions in dues and contributions. The steel industry could not compete and closed their doors leaving these people without jobs. This resulted in the Rust Belt becoming a depressed area of the country for over 20 years. Some communities still have never recovered. How is having no jobs better than a cut in pay and benefits to at least keep food on the table?

3. Unions pilfer dues to give to political candidates that many members may oppose. Some states have enacted laws to force the Unions to allow members to opt out of political donations. The Unions never voluntarily offer it's members that choice and a few are lobbying Congress to overturn those state laws where applicable. How is that in the best interest of it's members especially if they do not support the candidate the Union leadership does?

I could raise more issue to prove my point that todays Unions could care less about the best interest of it's members and are only concerned with their own power and wealth. These three will suffice to get my point across.

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: soonerproud

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

...and your industry will collapse. Congratulations unless your skills at operating an industry specific machine are transferable to another job or you can speak Japanese or Korean you're SOL.

While as an owner I take into account whats best for the company AND whats best for the employees (they are directly related in my mind) you as a union leader only take into account whats best for you.

Corrected to reflect reality. The majority of Union leadership in America could care less about what is best for the laborer. Here are few things that prove my point.

1. Laborers will usually lose more than they gain during a strike. My dad was a member of the Teamsters for 15 years. In that time (That I can remember) there were two strikes where my dad lost his house, car and destroyed his credit. Even with increased pay and benefits, my dad never fully recovered from those two strikes. The Union however gained millions in extra dues and had more money to pilfer from the pension plan. Now who benefited most from those strikes?

2. Unions were responsible for the shutting down of the steel industry in the Rust Belt. In the late 70's and early 80's there was a flood of cheap steel from other countries and right to work states. The steel mills approached the Union and it's members about a cut in pay and benefits to save their jobs and to continue operations. The Union leadership rallied the members to oppose any cut in pay and benefits because the union stood to loose millions in dues and contributions. The steel industry could not compete and closed their doors leaving these people without jobs. This resulted in the Rust Belt becoming a depressed area of the country for over 20 years. Some communities still have never recovered. How is having no jobs better than a cut in pay and benefits to at least keep food on the table?

3. Unions pilfer dues to give to political candidates that many members may oppose. Some states have enacted laws to force the Unions to allow members to opt out of political donations. The Unions never voluntarily offer it's members that choice and a few are lobbying Congress to overturn those state laws where applicable. How is that in the best interest of it's members especially if they do not support the candidate the Union leadership does?

I could raise more issue to prove my point that todays Unions could care less about the best interest of it's members and are only concerned with their own power and wealth. These three will suffice to get my point across.

sounds good to me. Like I said before I really dont mean to throw all union laborers under the bus because I think a lot of them are innocient of most of the bad things caused by unions. There are MANY people out there that just want to work for a fair wage but some ruin the union image for all of them.

 

[Spikesoldier]

bad management deserves the unions they create.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
I don't understand what's wrong with the writers' guild? They want residuals from internet revenue, the networks think they shouldn't get any. How is this not a reason to strike?

Because they already get paid to write? Do you ask your employer for residuals on products you helped develop?

 

[JEDI]

union or non-union?

http://img2.timeinc.net/toh/i/...n_nightmares/boxes.jpg
http://img2.timeinc.net/toh/i/...n_nightmares/water.jpg
http://img2.timeinc.net/toh/i/...nightmares/shower1.jpg Is the outlet GFCI-protected?
http://img2.timeinc.net/toh/i/...n_nightmares/mess1.jpg

 

[Lithium381]

I'm fairly ignorant on the issue of unions in general. We've been going over them in class recently.... From my perspective, in theory, UNIONS ARE A GOOD THING, provided that they represent the workers. From what many say here, they no longer do that. I agree that they helped create safe working environments and hours as previously mentioned. I feel that the current power of the unions is somewhat bloated. "Do what we want or we're going to strike" seems to be the mentality. A company trying to survive that has to make pay cuts to meet the red ink is screwed, either people lose jobs and they strike, or they have to take a paycut.......or everyone is out of a job.
The whole idea of senority and all is flawed. Final thought - Teachers union sucks.

 

[sygyzy]

What a stupid subtopic. People didn't like unions from before a writers' strike ever started.

 

[gar3555]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
1) US Law today covers this. There is no value-add from a union here.

2) So basically, you're admitting that unions are a form of extortion because they make it difficult to complete large projects without the help of the union.

3) Except that in Toledo, OH, where I grew up, the non-union shops produced higher-quality results and paid their workers more than union shops because the company didn't have the union protecting incompetent workers.

4) My experience being in a union (UFCW) and talking with several friends who work in the HVAC industry (I do not know what union covers HVAC) has been the opposite. We all agree that the non-union jobs we've had were greatly superior to the union jobs. Non-union jobs mean that you advance according to talent, hard work, and ability, and do not have inept co-workers who can't be fired. Union jobs mean that even if you're the best person there, some moron who has no value but has been there 10 years longer will be paid more because of "seniority".

Unions today are a drain on society. I will never belong to a union again, and I will never hire any company that uses union workers. Unions had their place before the US legal system caught up with industrialization, but they have become nothing more than an expensive redundancy.

ZV

True.

BTW, OP - I deal with the IBEW all the time - well not directly but with their electricians. When I have a choice - I usually pick the non-union shop for installs. It saves me time, money, and hassle. I can go on the job site and direct the workers if need be(no political BS) and I can turn a screwdriver if need be(usually can't when union electricians are used)
My jobs have to come in on budget and on time - I can't be delayed by Union BS.

I totally agree with you, I prefer, most times to use non-union electricians, for the above mentioned reasons. I've been dealing with them on various job sites over the last 3 years, and I have never seen an overwhelmingly better job done by the union electricians than their nonunion counterparts. Hell, the electricians in Mexico even did a pretty decent job, about as good as any electrician in the states. These weren't any simple residential jobs either, they were industrial control/power systems.

 

[Linflas]

The problem is government has never been neutral in the fight between unions and employers. Originally they would assist employers in busting unions and today, in closed shop states, they assist unions in preventing employers from hiring non-union labor. Both situations are wrong in my opinion. Employees should have the right to unionize and employers should have the right to hire whomever they want and governments only role should be to ensure that neither side uses thuggery to accomplish their goals. In all cases an employee should not be required to join a union as a condition of employment.

 

[Lithium381]

In all cases an employee should not be required to join a union as a condition of employment.

qft.......that's complete BS

 

[flashbacck]

Can someone clarify what exactly is the law on companies being required to hire union workers? Are they? And is it the same for every industry?

I was also once part of the UAW as a grad student in the UC system. It always annoyed me that I had no choice in being in the union. You HAD to be in it, and if you weren't a voting member paying full dues, you still had to pay partial dues with no voting rights. It also always amused me that whenever there was a TA strike, it was always the humanities grad students that striked. The science grad students never gave a crap because they were significantly better paid.

Originally posted by: JS80
Because they already get paid to write? Do you ask your employer for residuals on products you helped develop?

They already get residues for reruns on TV. So the argument is, why doesn't this extend to downloads and (more from) dvds?

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: TheSiege

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
Unless replacement employees can be hired no matter what, then unions should be outlawed.

you'd be surprised what unions have done to help ALL workers in America. 8 hour work day for one, unions are the reason we have that.

please,
no real professional jobs follow that crap anymore. You work to get stuff done, not to clock in, zoom out, clock out. There's a reason why they call UAW You Ain't Working

 

[BoomerD]

I'm perhaps the strongest union supporter on these forums. I've been a member of IUOE for 30+ years and have served as a Business Agent for my union.

OP, congrats to ya. IMO, unions are the best thing for the working man since sex. You get a good day's wages for a good day's work, you get good health and welfare benefits, a pension, and pride of workmanship.

Have unions "screwed the pooch" in some areas? Of course. We've all heard the stories about the lazy thieving sumbitch that the union wouldn't let the company fire, or the old guy with the most seniority who slept all day while some young guy did all the work...and many, many more lies and FUD.

The benefits of unions are manyfold, and like them or hate them, the good working conditions we all enjoy today are the result of union bargaining, union political pressure, and union lobbying for the benefits of their workers.
How stupid must people be if they believe that unions are outdated? If all the unions went away tomorrow, and/or were outlawed, it wouldn't take long for the "Robber Baron" attitude to take over Corporate America and wages and benefits would be slashed en masse.
Can't happen you say? Look at the states that have enacted "Right to Work(for less) laws. Wages in every one have gone down, benefits have gone down, job security has disappeared and working conditions have been reduced to the bare minimums.
Are unions right for every sector? No, probably not, but for MOST working people, unions can be the difference between working a crappy job with crappy wages, or working a crappy job with decent wages.

America Works Best When We Say UNION YES!


BTW, I've also carried a IBEW card for many years...There have been a couple of times when my hall was slow and I'd go to work as one of the PG&E temps from Local 1234 in Walnut Creek, CA.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I'm perhaps the strongest union supporter on these forums. I've been a member of IUOE for 30+ years and have served as a Business Agent for my union.

OP, congrats to ya. IMO, unions are the best thing for the working man since sex. You get a good day's wages for a good day's work, you get good health and welfare benefits, a pension, and pride of workmanship.

Have unions "screwed the pooch" in some areas? Of course. We've all heard the stories about the lazy thieving sumbitch that the union wouldn't let the company fire, or the old guy with the most seniority who slept all day while some young guy did all the work...and many, many more lies and FUD.

The benefits of unions are manyfold, and like them or hate them, the good working conditions we all enjoy today are the result of union bargaining, union political pressure, and union lobbying for the benefits of their workers.
How stupid must people be if they believe that unions are outdated? If all the unions went away tomorrow, and/or were outlawed, it wouldn't take long for the "Robber Baron" attitude to take over Corporate America and wages and benefits would be slashed en masse.
Can't happen you say? Look at the states that have enacted "Right to Work(for less) laws. Wages in every one have gone down, benefits have gone down, job security has disappeared and working conditions have been reduced to the bare minimums.
Are unions right for every sector? No, probably not, but for MOST working people, unions can be the difference between working a crappy job with crappy wages, or working a crappy job with decent wages.

America Works Best When We Say UNION YES!


BTW, I've also carried a IBEW card for many years...There have been a couple of times when my hall was slow and I'd go to work as one of the PG&E temps from Local 1234 in Walnut Creek, CA.

Whether you like it or not, globalization will hit you like a bag of bricks... those higher wages you speak off are extracted from your employer's profits. You can only pull that long enough until they realize they can move to lower cost provider - where it's states down south or somewhere abroad.

Wake up and smell the roses, manufacturing unions will be extinct in no time.

 

[Cattlegod]

Originally posted by: Eeezee
I'm a member of a union (UAW - United AutoWorkers, who happen to cover most of the physics graduate students in the UC system) and proud of it. Just recently my university tried to cut grad student wages by 5% and refused to negotiate, which is illegal. I make less than $22k per year (I'm a grad student), my union dues are less than a tenth of a percent (less than $25). We threatened to strike, which is only legal because the university refused to negotiate. Finally, the day before the old contract expired, they gave in and came to the negotiation table. Without the union, they would have forced the 5% wage cut down our throats and no negotiations would have taken place.

Sometimes workers need to gather together in order to be treated fairly. Frankly, I consider it part of a free market even though some dimwits on this forum will disagree.

The company doesn't force anything. You are free to leave at any time if you don't like the terms.