Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Londo_Jowo]

OR since John recanted seeing the MMA blows, Martin being held by Zimmerman, trying to break out of the restraint.

Edit: witnesses?? John is independent, Deedee a friend, Zimmerman his own, none of which we can take as gold until they take the stand and undergo cross-examination.

Yes, he recanted MMA style punches and who was screaming for help but he didn't change his statement concerning who was on top and that person may have been striking or restraining the person on the bottom.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent

Witness 6
This witnesslived a few feet from where Trayvon and Zimmerman had their fight. On the night of the shooting, he told Serino he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style," a reference to mixed martial arts.
He also said the one calling for help was "the one being beat up," a reference to Zimmerman.
But three weeks later, when he was interviewed by an FDLE agent, the man said he was no longer sure which one called for help.
"I truly can't tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk," he said.
He also said he was no longer sure Trayvon was throwing punches. The teenager may have simply been keeping Zimmerman pinned to the ground, he said.
He did not equivocate, though, about who was on top.
"The black guy was on top," he said.

 

[Geosurface]

So WHAMPOM thinks what John saw might've been GZ under TM holding TM on top of him...

once someone suggests something like that, I think you write them off.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Yes, he recanted MMA style punches and who was screaming for help but he didn't change his statement concerning who was on top and that person may have been striking or restraining the person on the bottom.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent

That is your conjecture. In that dark backyard John was sure of seeing White-shirt/Martin on top, Martin straining to get out of a hold Zimmerman had on him would look the same as Martin holding Zimmerman down to a man confused about a shirt/hoody, sweater/jacket.

 

[corwin]

That is your conjecture. In that dark backyard John was sure of seeing White-shirt/Martin on top, Martin straining to get out of a hold Zimmerman had on him would look the same as Martin holding Zimmerman down to a man confused about a shirt/hoody, sweater/jacket.

Yes because everyone knows the best way to restrain someone and not leave a mark on them is to let them beat on you while lying on your back Keep up the FUD

 

[WHAMPOM]

So WHAMPOM thinks what John saw might've been GZ under TM holding TM on top of him...

once someone suggests something like that, I think you write them off.

You bragged about being on a boat, what is ballast and what does it do? History repeating itself with "grab and throw" Zimmerman tackles Martin, rolls on the ground, the fat one ends up on the bottom. Try to get your mind around this, it is not a fist fight, it is a wrestling match with some punches thrown by the one in the clutch.

 

[OCNewbie]

There will be a story presented that whatever confrontation took place, Martin was defending himself.

Ok, let's just clarify that this is you assuming that this is the angle the prosecution will take. I have a question for you about this: What is the prosecution going to present as the manner in which TM "defended himself"? They have to detail TM's correlating actions with this defense, so what exactly are they going to concede? Are they going to say TM threw the first punch? Are they going to say TM did bash GZ's head into the ground? Are they going to have a solid explanation for the wounds to the back of the head?

There's a good deal of evidence to support this, and no evidence that disproves it.

Ok, so after the prosecution details what actions TM took in order to "defend himself", what proof do they have to show that his defending actions were justified? What provable actions did GZ take to incite this violent (I'm assuming they're going to have to suggest TM was in some way violent towards GZ) response from TM? What is this "proof" you speak of?

 

[OCNewbie]

Its a perfectly logical conclusion that Zimmerman confronted or threatened Martin in some way, and therefore its logical that Martin would defend himself.

That is not evidence, that is a conclusion you've drawn based on your opinion of GZ's mindset (based on the phone call), and what little we know about TM's mindset prior to them having the confrontation. There has to be at least SOME physical evidence showing GZ ripped TM's shirt/hoodie (when he "attempted to detain" him), or something, other than your "perfectly logical conclusion", to suggest that GZ ever, in any way, attempted to get physical with TM, which would warrant the level of injury GZ sustained, and the total lack of injury found on TM. This is not a game of whodunit; this is (potentially) to be tried in a court of law, where someone's future (GZ's) is on the line, and there has to be hard evidence that proves GZ is guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, in order to lock GZ up and throw away the key.

 

[JKing106]

I'd love to know who that guy really is. just sayin' that's all.

Yeah? What the fuck would you do about it? SWAT team me? Take out credit cards in my name?

Tell you what, I'll give you a time and a place. You bring your gun with you. I'll send you home with it, stuffed up your ass.

 

[JKing106]

I really enjoyed your "Moby Dick" analogy, Geo.

Speaking of white whales, which one do you work for? Karl Rove, Rush Limbaugh, or dead (thank you, Baby Jeebus) Breitbart?

 

[Druidx]

Enjoy your vacation?

 

[Geosurface]

You bragged about being on a boat

Link/quote please.

Also, tell me honestly do you really think "well it COULD have happened this other way though!" is a good justification for a man spending decades in prison?

Face it, though you may not want to give any credence to GZ's version, at least it is something... at least it is coming out of the mouth of someone who was directly present and involved. Your "but maybe" scenarios are just that, and only that.

For them to be taken seriously I personally think there should be some evidence of them... they should arise in some way from something a witness said, or the physical evidence indicated in some way... they shouldn't just spring out of the imagination of Angela Corey, or you, or anyone else who wasn't even there. Semi-plausible musings and what-ifs should not pass muster when a man's life is in the balance.

 

[lotus503]

Link/quote please.

Also, tell me honestly do you really think "well it COULD have happened this other way though!" is a good justification for a man spending decades in prison?

Face it, though you may not want to give any credence to GZ's version, at least it is something... at least it is coming out of the mouth of someone who was directly present and involved. Your "but maybe" scenarios are just that, and only that.

For them to be taken seriously I personally think there should be some evidence of them... they should arise in some way from something a witness said, or the physical evidence indicated in some way... they shouldn't just spring out of the imagination of Angela Corey, or you, or anyone else who wasn't even there. Semi-plausible musings and what-ifs should not pass muster when a man's life is in the balance.

You wanted it here it is, a link of you bragging about being on a boat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8F3UE9qFsg

 

[spidey07]

So.

Any evidence at all it wasn't self defense?

Just a shred please. Just a single piece.

 

[Geosurface]

You wanted it here it is, a link of you bragging about being on a boat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8F3UE9qFsg

lol

 

[Londo_Jowo]

That is your conjecture. In that dark backyard John was sure of seeing White-shirt/Martin on top, Martin straining to get out of a hold Zimmerman had on him would look the same as Martin holding Zimmerman down to a man confused about a shirt/hoody, sweater/jacket.

There's two witnesses that place TM on top of GZ just prior to the shot.

You bragged about being on a boat, what is ballast and what does it do? History repeating itself with "grab and throw" Zimmerman tackles Martin, rolls on the ground, the fat one ends up on the bottom. Try to get your mind around this, it is not a fist fight, it is a wrestling match with some punches thrown by the one in the clutch.

Again even if the prosecution could prove that GZ used a "Grab and Throw" technique on TM it's going to come down to the point when GZ used his gun. I think most people who found themselves in the same position that GZ was in (facial/head injuries and unable to extricate themselves from the altercation) would reasonably fear they were in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.

 

[Geosurface]

Given that GZ had the injuries, was unable to get away, was the one on bottom, and Trayvon had no injuries prior to the gunshot... and the fact that GZ ended up having to shoot TM, I think the idea that it was TM screaming is one of the most laughable pieces of stupidity in human history.

And that's without even mentioning the fact that you can actually tell it's GZ's voice if you listen to some of the more clear, extracted samples of the scream.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Between airdata/dari's 5th amendment perversions and the new crumptonite version of "zimmerman was holding trayvon on top of him while assaulting him" I seriously can't wait for the new lows you guys will stoop to.


I thought there was going to be another evidence dump last week? What happened?

 

[Tom]

Yes, he recanted MMA style punches and who was screaming for help but he didn't change his statement concerning who was on top and that person may have been striking or restraining the person on the bottom.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent

The point is if a witness materially changes their story then EVERYTHING they testify about could be dismissed as unreliable by jurors.

And that is how it should be. In this case it seems plausible he changed his story to fit the facts better, ie Zimmerman's face and body weren't battered.

That leaves him a very poor person to hang your hat on as far as who was on top. Again he could be saying what he thinks is best for Zimmerman for any number of reasons.

 

[Tom]

That is not evidence, that is a conclusion you've drawn based on your opinion of GZ's mindset (based on the phone call), and what little we know about TM's mindset prior to them having the confrontation. There has to be at least SOME physical evidence showing GZ ripped TM's shirt/hoodie (when he "attempted to detain" him), or something, other than your "perfectly logical conclusion", to suggest that GZ ever, in any way, attempted to get physical with TM, which would warrant the level of injury GZ sustained, and the total lack of injury found on TM. This is not a game of whodunit; this is (potentially) to be tried in a court of law, where someone's future (GZ's) is on the line, and there has to be hard evidence that proves GZ is guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, in order to lock GZ up and throw away the key.

You're wrong. There does not have to be "hard evidence". And its up to the jurors to decide what happened if they choose to, and its up to them what is reasonable doubt. And whether or not Zimmerman's life was in danger, or if they believe he thought so.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The point is if a witness materially changes their story then EVERYTHING they testify about could be dismissed as unreliable by jurors.

And that is how it should be. In this case it seems plausible he changed his story to fit the facts better, ie Zimmerman's face and body weren't battered.

That leaves him a very poor person to hang your hat on as far as who was on top. Again he could be saying what he thinks is best for Zimmerman for any number of reasons.

Yet there's another witness that places TM on top of GZ prior to the shot being fired.

 

[Tom]

Yet there's another witness that places TM on top of GZ prior to the shot being fired.

Well, you know more about it than me. I assume since you refer to John more that you think his testimony is stronger.

All I'm saying is it might not turn out to look that strong in a trial.

I also don't think it matters all that much, it isn't necessary to kill somebody because they're holding you on the ground, particularly if they're not armed and aren't much physically stronger, ie if Zimmerman were a 10 year old girl.

But others, including jurors could see it differently.

 

[TerryMathews]

Well, you know more about it than me. I assume since you refer to John more that you think his testimony is stronger.

All I'm saying is it might not turn out to look that strong in a trial.

I also don't think it matters all that much, it isn't necessary to kill somebody because they're holding you on the ground, particularly if they're not armed and aren't much physically stronger, ie if Zimmerman were a 10 year old girl.

But others, including jurors could see it differently.

Or the judge, when he dismisses at the immunity hearing.

 

[Tom]

Or the judge, when he dismisses at the immunity hearing.

Yes, a judge could decide that, and I usually include judge or jury for that reason.

 

[spidey07]

The point is if a witness materially changes their story then EVERYTHING they testify about could be dismissed as unreliable by jurors.

And that is how it should be. In this case it seems plausible he changed his story to fit the facts better, ie Zimmerman's face and body weren't battered.

That leaves him a very poor person to hang your hat on as far as who was on top. Again he could be saying what he thinks is best for Zimmerman for any number of reasons.

The forensics PROVE martin was on top of zimmerman and at close range when shot. The evidence PROVES self defense.

 

[Tom]

The forensics PROVE martin was on top of zimmerman and at close range when shot. The evidence PROVES self defense.

Maybe an expert will testify about ballistics. He won't say what you just said about self-defense, I am sure of that.