Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[corwin]

quick google search for ubran dictionary reports a definition for momo. Still name calling. Plenty we've seen in this thread.

I'm sure there is but it's not worth my time to look it up nor do I really care, childish names have never bothered me, I'd rather read posts from others who actually have some sort of argument to make with their mind rather than a kid calling names

 

[Dari]

I'm sure there is but it's not worth my time to look it up nor do I really care, childish names have never bothered me, I'd rather read posts from others who actually have some sort of argument to make with their mind rather than a kid calling names

I guess calling someone 'cupcake' is really adult-like. The mods agree with you...

EDIT: I see now. We have posters running and crying to the mods about posts. I had no idea that's how it was. Can't imagine complaining about something like this. Maybe I need another couple of years off this forum. The characters are different from before...

 

[a777pilot]

You can keep the unreasonable title...Dari gets irrational

I want both.

 

[Fern]

I came to about page 200 of reading this thread. Can someone please spare me another 300 pages of tear jerking and just make a summary of events to date and what is the latest evidence or theories in this case? Will be forever grateful thank you

Start here. This is the police report. In particular read the essay sections by the officers:

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

Note Z was arrested then (detained, held at gunpoint and taken into custody etc.)

Note there are 6 witnesses whose names are redacted. We only know of what a few have testified to.

Notice the fairly large number of officers arriving at the scene, some quickly (e.g., officer Smith arrived almost immediately after the shooting), notice that they were there a long time and sealed off the 'crime scene' etc.

Note the officer describing George Zimmerman's head and nose injuries.

Note no forensics have been released. The police have the gun. They have the clothes from both. There would also be GSR (gunshot residue) forensics that haven't been released.

Description of events.

I will include only known facts. I.e., claims by Zimmerman's and Taryvon's side will not be included here.

George Zimmerman, the elected Neighborhood Watch Captain, was leaving his house/apt to run errands when he noticed Trayvon. Trayvon, who lived in Miami, was visiting his father and they were staying at his father's GF house/apt in this community. So, Trayvon did not live there.

This community has had a lot of crime lately, including many robberies.

Zimmerman called 911 reporting a suspicious person. He left his car to follow Trayvon while on the phone with 911. After losing sight of Trayvon the two somehow met up and a fight broke out. Trayvon was shot in the chest and died. Zimmerman was arrested and claimed self-defense. After questioning him etc., the police concluded from their investigation and the evidence at the time they could not charge him so Zimmerman was released.

Trayvon was 17 yrs old. He was between 6' and 6' 3" and approx 150 lbs.

Zimmerman is 28 (IIRC) about 5' 9" and approx 170 lbs.
------------

Trayvon's side (family and supporters) claim he went to the convenience store to buy a can of ice tea and a bag of skittles for his little brother. On the way back home to his father's GF's house/apt he was chased down and killed by Zimmerman.

Zimmerman's side claims he was keeping a eye on this unknown and suspicious person. That he stopped following Trayvon and on the way back to his car Trayvon approached from behind (or left side/behind) where upon Trayvon asked Zimmerman what his problem was. Trayvon then decked Zimmerman with a punch to his nose, breaking it. Trayvon then stood over Z beating him, including slamming his head on the sidewalk. That Trayvon then saw Zimmerman's gun and tried to take it. Zimmerman, fearing for his life, regained control of his gun and shot Trayvon.

There is one witness (so far) named 'John' whose testimony by-and-large backs up Zimmerman's claim.

BUT, we do not know who threw the first punch. Witness named 'John' apparently did not see the beginning of the fight.

There is more from Zimmerman's side, obviously this is because Trayvon is dead.

The police have not released evidence/forensics. They cannot under FL law. The Prosecutor and the police chief have stepped aside and a special prosecutor was appointed. The FBI was brought in to investigate.

We are awaiting the special prosecutor's decision as to whether Zimmerman will face charges. We would also like to know what evidence the police have. Hopefully if they don't charge Z it will be released. Otherwise, if he is charged I assume it will come out during trial.

Hopefully that helps. Just beware there has been an awful lot of misinformation in news articles. Also, a lot of pure speculation claimed as fact by people here and elsewhere.

Fern

 

[a777pilot]

Start here. This is the police report. In particular read the essay sections by the officers:

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

Note Z was arrested then (detained, held at gunpoint and taken into custody etc.)

Note there are 6 witnesses whose names are redacted. We only know of what a few have testified to.

Notice the fairly large number of officers arriving at the scene, some (e.g., officer almost immediately after the shooting), notice that they were there a long time and sealed off the 'crime scene'.

Note the officer describing George Zimmerman's head.nose injuries.

Note no forensics have been released. The police have the gun. They have the clothes from both. There would also be GSR (gunshot residue) forensics that haven't been released.

Description of events.

I will include only known facts. I.e., claims by Zimmerman's and Taryvon's side will not be included here.

George Zimmerman, the elected Neighborhood Watch Captain, was leaving his house/apt to run errands when he noticed Trayvon. Trayvon, who lived in Miami, was visiting his father and they were staying at his father's GF house/apt in this community. So, Trayvon did not live there.

This community has had a lot of crime lately, including many robberies.

Zimmerman called 911 reporting a suspicious person. He left his car to follow Trayvon while on the phone with 911. After losing sight of Trayvon the two somehow met up and a fight broke out. Trayvon was shot in the chest and died. Zimmerman was arrested and claimed self-defense. After questioning him etc., the police concluded from their investigation and the evidence at the time they could not charge him so Zimmerman was released.

Trayvon was 17 yrs old. He was between 6' and 6' 3" and approx 150 lbs.

Zimmerman is 28 (IIRC) about 5' 9" and approx 170 lbs.
------------

Trayvon's side (family and supporters) claim he went to the convenience store to buy a can of ice tea and a bag of skittles for his little brother. On the way back home to his father's GF's house/apt he was chased down and killed by Zimmerman.

Zimmerman's side claims he was keeping a eye on this unknown and suspicious person. That he stopped following Trayvon and on the way back to his car Trayvon approached from behind (or left side/behind) where upon Trayvon asked Zimmerman what his problem was. Trayvon then decked Zimmerman with a punch to his nose, breaking it. Trayvon then stood over Z beating him, including slamming his head on the sidewalk. That Trayvon then saw Zimmerman's gun and tried to take it. Zimmerman, fearing for his life, regained control of his gun and shot Trayvon.

There is one witness (so far) whose testimony by-and-large backs up Zimmerman's claim.

BUT, we do not know who threw the first punch (if any, really).

There is more from Zimmerman's side, obviously this is because Trayvon is dead.

The police have not released evidence/forensics. They cannot under FL law. The Prosecutor and the police chief have stepped aside and a special prosecutor was appointed. The FBI was brought in to investigate.

We are awaiting the special prosecutor's decision as to whether Zimmerman will face charges. We would also like to know what evidence the police have. Hopefully if they don't charge Z it will be released. Otherwise, if he is charged I assume it will come out during trial.

Hopefully that helps. Just beware there has been an awful lot of misinformation in news articles. Also, a lot of pure speculation claimed as fact by both sides.

Fern

Nice recap of events.

Too bad this situation will be decided on race and emotions, especially fear, vice the actual facts.

 

[cave_dweller]

Start here. This is the police report. In particular read the essay sections by the officers:

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

Note Z was arrested then (detained, held at gunpoint and taken into custody etc.)

Note there are 6 witnesses whose names are redacted. We only know of what a few have testified to.

Notice the fairly large number of officers arriving at the scene, some (e.g., officer almost immediately after the shooting), notice that they were there a long time and sealed off the 'crime scene'.

Note the officer describing George Zimmerman's head.nose injuries.

Note no forensics have been released. The police have the gun. They have the clothes from both. There would also be GSR (gunshot residue) forensics that haven't been released.

Description of events.

I will include only known facts. I.e., claims by Zimmerman's and Taryvon's side will not be included here.

George Zimmerman, the elected Neighborhood Watch Captain, was leaving his house/apt to run errands when he noticed Trayvon. Trayvon, who lived in Miami, was visiting his father and they were staying at his father's GF house/apt in this community. So, Trayvon did not live there.

This community has had a lot of crime lately, including many robberies.

Zimmerman called 911 reporting a suspicious person. He left his car to follow Trayvon while on the phone with 911. After losing sight of Trayvon the two somehow met up and a fight broke out. Trayvon was shot in the chest and died. Zimmerman was arrested and claimed self-defense. After questioning him etc., the police concluded from their investigation and the evidence at the time they could not charge him so Zimmerman was released.

Trayvon was 17 yrs old. He was between 6' and 6' 3" and approx 150 lbs.

Zimmerman is 28 (IIRC) about 5' 9" and approx 170 lbs.
------------

Trayvon's side (family and supporters) claim he went to the convenience store to buy a can of ice tea and a bag of skittles for his little brother. On the way back home to his father's GF's house/apt he was chased down and killed by Zimmerman.

Zimmerman's side claims he was keeping a eye on this unknown and suspicious person. That he stopped following Trayvon and on the way back to his car Trayvon approached from behind (or left side/behind) where upon Trayvon asked Zimmerman what his problem was. Trayvon then decked Zimmerman with a punch to his nose, breaking it. Trayvon then stood over Z beating him, including slamming his head on the sidewalk. That Trayvon then saw Zimmerman's gun and tried to take it. Zimmerman, fearing for his life, regained control of his gun and shot Trayvon.

There is one witness (so far) whose testimony by-and-large backs up Zimmerman's claim.

BUT, we do not know who threw the first punch (if any, really).

There is more from Zimmerman's side, obviously this is because Trayvon is dead.

The police have not released evidence/forensics. They cannot under FL law. The Prosecutor and the police chief have stepped aside and a special prosecutor was appointed. The FBI was brought in to investigate.

We are awaiting the special prosecutor's decision as to whether Zimmerman will face charges. We would also like to know what evidence the police have. Hopefully if they don't charge Z it will be released. Otherwise, if he is charged I assume it will come out during trial.

Hopefully that helps. Just beware there has been an awful lot of misinformation in news articles. Also, a lot of pure speculation claimed as fact by both sides.

Fern

Thx Fern :thumbsup:

 

[Dari]

Fern, was he elected as NW? I thought he appointed himself.

 

[Fern]

Fern, was he elected as NW? I thought he appointed himself.

Not according to testimony by others who live in the community and are members of the NW group. I.e., they claim he was elected as captain.

Fern

 

[Dari]

Not according to testimony by others who live in the community and are members of the NW group. I.e., they claim he was elected as captain.

Fern

I see.

 

[Geosurface]

Says the guy who has exclusively posted in this thread since signing on and has created youtube videos regarding this case...

Untrue.

Yep, I've made some YouTube videos. Your point? there are a lot of people on YouTube making vids about this case, presenting various snippets from newscasts trying to tie links together, or assemble things in a way that highlights contradictions or connections others may have failed to make. Not saying I'm particularly good at it, but I don't see how being one of those people makes me irrational. If you wanted to make a good case about me being irrational, swap notes with DVC he will give you some pointers. He's made a much better case about it than you, as far as my "fan fiction" and passionate defense of Zimmerman. I still don't think any of that indicates irrationality on my part, but he came closer to making the point than you. That's for sure.

Maybe "irrational" wasn't the right word for me to put on you though. It certainly applies, but it sort of misses the point... your bigger problem is that you are wildly immature.

 

[TerryMathews]

Not according to testimony by others who live in the community and are members of the NW group. I.e., they claim he was elected as captain.

Fern

Also, the SPD recognized him as neighborhood watch. The people who claimed he was doing this on his own really misrepresented the situation and downplayed the program in general.

 

[Perknose]

Dear corwin and Dari.

I could issue you both mulitple infractions for the personal insults you're trading back and forth in the last few posts, but I don't wish to.

Just please, both of you, read this and remain aware that, until and unless the community votes otherwise, personal insults are not allowed.

I know this is a hot button topic for all concerned. Just keep the new rules in mind, please.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[PokerGuy]

Fern's recap pretty much includes all the facts. The non-factual side to the story is that the media and the racists have managed to blow this up into a big story about racism and injustice, even though all the facts in the case are not publicly known and there has been no evidence thus far proving a crime was committed or that racism was involved at all.

 

[lotus503]

Which law?

If there was evidence would the DA ignore it? With the Feds looking over her shoulder

No, I was responding to spidey who left out they may have evidence that he commited a crime.

They may not, we have to wait and see

 

[HumblePie]

There are a few other facts, such as questionable testimony released by both Austin and Cutcher that Fern forgot to include. As well as audio leak links, and surveillance video leak links which are listed in this thread previously.

Also that the special prosecutors office is no longer going for a Grand Jury convening which is required to bring charges of first degree murder. So we know Zimmerman will not be charged for first degree murder in this case.

Also the links for the actual self defense laws are relevant as they pertain to this case for the state of Florida.

There is second hand testimony from two family members of Zimmerman, his father and brother, with corresponding links to what the have said they were told by George. As of yet the testimony, as given by George to the police the night of the incident, has not been released. So that is as close as the public has come thus far to hearing George's side of events.


Last is various evidence to the characters of both Trayvon and George as well as various allegations about their past. Both recent and old events in their lives have been leaked for various reasons.

 

[lotus503]

There are a few other facts, such as questionable testimony released by both Austin and Cutcher that Fern forgot to include. As well as audio leak links, and surveillance video leak links which are listed in this thread previously.

Also that the special prosecutors office is no longer going for a Grand Jury convening which is required to bring charges of first degree murder. So we know Zimmerman will not be charged for first degree murder in this case.

Also the links for the actual self defense laws are relevant as they pertain to this case for the state of Florida.

There is second hand testimony from two family members of Zimmerman, his father and brother, with corresponding links to what the have said they were told by George. As of yet the testimony, as given by George to the police the night of the incident, has not been released. So that is as close as the public has come thus far to hearing George's side of events.


Last is various evidence to the characters of both Trayvon and George as well as various allegations about their past. Both recent and old events in their lives have been leaked for various reasons.

I think he left a bunch of that shit out because for the most part its speculation based on media coverage not facts from case documents.

I think Ferns recap without all of the drama and media parroting is as close to what we know, without all the fluff.

 

[corwin]

I think he left a bunch of that shit out because for the most part its speculation based on media coverage not facts from case documents.

I think Ferns recap without all of the drama and media parroting is as close to what we know, without all the fluff.

I think you got that right, most of those items are subject to speculation for the most part, just like not including any of the "expert" opinions of the screams or what he said right as he got out of the car...none of it is really "fact"

 

[Geosurface]

My earlier joke about George Zimmerman "turning himself into the police" inspired me to make this silly image, thought one or two of you might get a chuckle:

 

[MH2007]

Start here. This is the police report. In particular read the essay sections by the officers:

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

Note Z was arrested then (detained, held at gunpoint and taken into custody etc.)

Note there are 6 witnesses whose names are redacted. We only know of what a few have testified to.

I think that there is a considerable amount of information we can glean from the witness descriptions in the police report:

WITNESS 1
White Male, DOB 04/18/1982 (age 29), height 6' weight 170 lbs, brown hair blue eyes

This may be "John" who saw a man in red being beaten and shouting for help. He told the person on top to stop and that he was going inside and upstairs to call 911. He heard the shot before he managed to call 911 and continued watching from his upstairs window, describing to 911 what he saw.

"John's" 911 call:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trayvon_Martin_Shooting_Call2.ogg

This might also be "Jeremy", who the caller in the 911 call where the gunshot is heard tells to get inside

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trayvon_Martin_Shooting_Call3.ogg

It might also be someone else.

WITNESS 2
White Female, DOB 07/28/1980 (age 31), height 5'6" weight 150 lbs, brown hair green eyes

This is most likely Mary Cutcher. Note that the hair is listed as brown, which might confuse anyone trying to figure out which one of the listed witness on the report is her. She is undeniably the single witness who has sought out the most media attention. This is her 911 call

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trayvon_Martin_Shooting_Call6.ogg

About Mary Cutcher, the Miami Herald says:

Another caller, Mora’s roommate, Mary Cutcher, phoned police after the gunshot and said the black man was standing over another man, which would have been impossible, because Trayvon was already dead.

Cutcher later blasted the Sanford police, saying detectives did not return her phone calls because she clearly believed that the person crying was the boy, and that was not the story investigators were looking for. Police issued a news release saying she had given an “inconsistent statement.”

This could also be the caller in Call 3 or an unknown person but I personally think it is most likely Cutcher.

WITNESS 3
Male, race "O" (other?), DOB 06/17/1969 (age 42), heigh 5'7" weight 200 lbs hair black eyes brown

This might be the man in khakis and tshirt talking to cops at the scene. In videos you can see him turn his head and you can see he might be an Asian man with glasses and short hair.

He may be "John", "Jeremy", or someone else entirely

WITNESS 4
White Female, DOB 06/07/1975 (age 36) height 5'2" weight 125 lbs hair brown eyes hazel

This is most likely Cutcher's roommate Selma. If you have seen the press conference the roommates conducted with the Martin family lawyers Selma is noticeably shorter than Mary regardless of which one is speaking.

WITNESS 5
White Female, DOB 08/25/1955 (age 56) height 5'5" weight 120 lbs hair blond eyes blue

This is most likely CNN's new eyewitness. If you have seen their interview she explicitly refers to the 911 dispatcher she talks to as male and the only other male dispatcher is the one who talked to the 13 y.o. boy who was walking her dog, so this is her 911 call

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trayvon_Martin_Shooting_Call7.ogg

WITNESS 6
White Male, DOB 10/28/1981 (age 30) height 6'2" weight 195 lbs hair brown eyes blue

Possibly "John" "Jeremy" or someone else

WITNESSES NOT ON POLICE REPORT
WITNESS 7
Austin Brown, the thirteen year old boy who was walking his dog when the shooting occurred, did not come forward to police the night of the shooting (understandable, of course).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trayvon_Martin_Shooting_Call8.ogg

WITNESS 8
The female thirty year old caller in this call mentions towards the end of her call that she saw a person in white on top of another person but that it was too dark to see anything else. Upon seeing that she immediately called 911 and was on the line at the time of the gunshot but the sound of the gunshot appears to have been removed along with redacted personal information. If she did not talk to police that night it might be because she felt she couldn't offer anything beyond what she already told 911. She might be witness 2 but in my opinion witness 2 is more likely Cutcher. This is her call:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trayvon_Martin_Shooting_Call4.ogg

CONCLUSION
So basically "John" is likely one of the three male witnesses on the report and "Jeremy" might be one of the other two, and may also be an eyewitness since he was in a very similar position to Selma but possibly even before the gunshot.

So basically we have six eyewitness that we know about ("John", Mary, Selma, CNN's, Austin Brown, Call 4). "Jeremy" might be a seventh eyewitness and the final unknown male might be an eighth eyewitness.

Note also that the 911 caller in Call 5 is also not in the police report, although if you listen to her call it doesn't seem that she saw or heard anything more than anyone else did.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

We also know that GZ was question on 3 different occasions and according to his lawyer passed a voice stress test (type of lie detector test) during one of these questioning interviews.

 

[TerryMathews]

Not according to testimony by others who live in the community and are members of the NW group. I.e., they claim he was elected as captain.

Fern

Also, the SPD recognized him as neighborhood watch. The people who claimed he was doing this on his own really misrepresented the situation and downplayed the program in general.

 

[lotus503]

Also, the SPD recognized him as neighborhood watch. The people who claimed he was doing this on his own really misrepresented the situation and downplayed the program in general.

If he was an elected capitan, they may want to reconsider since he follows none of their guidlines.

 

[TerryMathews]

If he was an elected capitan, they may want to reconsider since he follows none of their guidlines.

I imagine GZ no longer wants the position either. I know I wouldn't.

 

[WHAMPOM]

That line reminds me of something...wasn't T talking to his GF before he ran off after seeing Z watching him? Was she on the phone with him the whole time between the run and when their confrontation began since she has said their first words? Wouldn't she then be able to shed light on what he was doing the several minutes between when Z lost him and when they started talking?

Several minutes?? If the timeline I remember is correct maybe three minutes, Zimmerman calls dispatcher 7:11PM, girlfriend's four minute call ends 7:16PM, police arrive 7:17PM, Trayvan pronounced dead 7:30PM.

 

[corwin]

f he was an elected capitan, they may want to reconsider since he follows none of their guidlines.

As has been stated before the "guidelines" you are referring to is from some national group that has no authority or governance over the vast majority of local NW groups