Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Geosurface]

I frankly find questioning whether it was GZ screaming to be absurd on it's face. It's remarkable to me that anyone who is in any measure informed about this case, would do so at this point. Or for many months now.

1. GZ said it was him screaming immediately to neighbors and cops, while he was still stunned and dazed by what had happened, in no condition to formulate masterstrokes of criminal evil.
2. GZ had all the injuries, the injured person with gashes on their head is the one screaming, not the uninjured person who caused those injuries.
3. The person on top is not the one screaming, this is elementary. At least, not screaming like that, in terror. If it was TM screaming it'd be something like "help me hold this guy down! he's got a gun!" not the sort of plaintive wail of terror, which can only correspond to being on bottom, and having the injuries. GZ in both cases.
4. It's quite clearly GZ's voice if you listen to the screams isolated from the rest of the call, enhanced, and have heard GZ speak extensively.
5. The police, whose job this is, didn't question that it was GZ screaming. Even the detective who had misgivings about other aspects of the case.
6. GZ was unguarded and sure enough about this issue that he even casually remarked that it didn't even sound like him. Of course what he meant wasn't that it didn't sound like his voice, what he really meant was he had never heard himself in such durress, and that familiar human feeling of your own voice played back to you sounding odd. That he would be so unguarded about this as to say that, indicates he wasn't trying to maintain some lie about the issue, unless you're prepared to credit him with being an absolute criminal mastermind.

For you to believe it was TM screaming, you are then required to believe that GZ is so unbelievably evil, as to execute someone who had been begging for his life for a minute solid. So sure of his aim that he trusted one bullet to achieve this result... it's just a fucking stupid notion on it's face, that TM was the one screaming.

The only way to even entertain the notion is to fail to consider the implications or think it through in any meaningful way.

Again, you'd have to believe GZ was an absolutely cold-blooded murderer, and a criminal mastermind who thought to lie about whose screams they were instantly. That John's first account of who he saw screaming was wrong, too.

I've not seen really any TM supporter who seems to think GZ was pure evil, most, at least these days, seem to just want to dwell in some vague area dealing with something about losing his temper... shooting when he really didn't have to, it doesn't exactly make a lot of sense, but they typically avoid thinking through the whole scenario in great detail, or talking about certain areas like this which break down logically when examined closely.

So, if you aren't claiming that you think he's pure evil, murdering someone for no good reason, how can you say you think he might've shot someone who had begged for mercy for a full minute?

See, GZ's version doesn't require us to believe there were any super villains or criminal masterminds present that evening. All it requires is for you to believe that a troubled young man, while on suspension from school, lashed out at a perceived authority figure and potential source of yet more trouble... and got caught up in administering a beating. And that the target of this beating feared for his life and acted accordingly. Nothing too crazy there, it all flows and makes sense.

The pro-TM narratives don't hold up to logical scrutiny or pass the sniff test re: human motivations and actions.

 

[airdata]

What if Trayvon was screaming when he realized that he was about to get shot & killed?

legitimate fear of death would trump the squeals of zimmerman.

 

[momeNt]

Didn't GZ have his screams recorded and they were nothing like the phone screams? Perhaps the trauma of the situation made him not remember his own screams? What's the excuse there?

 

[spidey07]

What if Trayvon was screaming when he realized that he was about to get shot & killed?

legitimate fear of death would trump the squeals of zimmerman.

Still wouldn't matter one bit as he was still a threat by being on top of zimmerman after beating him senseless as verified fact proven by evidence. Nothing can show this isn't 100 percent self defense when you look at the evidence.

So far there is ZERO evidence zimmerman committed any crime and all evidence proves self defense.

 

[TerryMathews]

What if Trayvon was screaming when he realized that he was about to get shot & killed?

legitimate fear of death would trump the squeals of zimmerman.

Both men could reasonably fear for their lives.

 

[TerryMathews]

There's no PROOF it was GZ screaming. There's no proof for alot of what GZ "claims" happened that night. His story changes as much as Mitt Romney's positions...yet like Romney's supporters, they ignore the many changes because they want him to win.

There's also little proof to contradict.

 

[airdata]

What if Trayvon was screaming when he realized that he was about to get shot & killed?

legitimate fear of death would trump the squeals of zimmerman.

Oh, that's right... He most likely didn't know he was going to get shot until it already happened.

Which means Zimmerman didn't exhaust all means to end the confrontation non lethally.

 

[lotus503]

I frankly find questioning whether it was GZ screaming to be absurd on it's face. It's remarkable to me that anyone who is in any measure informed about this case, would do so at this point. Or for many months now.

1. GZ said it was him screaming immediately to neighbors and cops, while he was still stunned and dazed by what had happened, in no condition to formulate masterstrokes of criminal evil.
2. GZ had all the injuries, the injured person with gashes on their head is the one screaming, not the uninjured person who caused those injuries.
3. The person on top is not the one screaming, this is elementary. At least, not screaming like that, in terror. If it was TM screaming it'd be something like "help me hold this guy down! he's got a gun!" not the sort of plaintive wail of terror, which can only correspond to being on bottom, and having the injuries. GZ in both cases.
4. It's quite clearly GZ's voice if you listen to the screams isolated from the rest of the call, enhanced, and have heard GZ speak extensively.
5. The police, whose job this is, didn't question that it was GZ screaming. Even the detective who had misgivings about other aspects of the case.
6. GZ was unguarded and sure enough about this issue that he even casually remarked that it didn't even sound like him. Of course what he meant wasn't that it didn't sound like his voice, what he really meant was he had never heard himself in such durress, and that familiar human feeling of your own voice played back to you sounding odd. That he would be so unguarded about this as to say that, indicates he wasn't trying to maintain some lie about the issue, unless you're prepared to credit him with being an absolute criminal mastermind.

It very well may have been Zimmerman screaming. That's not the issue, the issue is experts have stated evidence of it as inconclusive. Yet you trot this out as fact absent evidence yet slam others for trotting out their positions as fact absent of evidence. It's just one example of your hypocrisy on display when it comes to this case.

This case comes down to evidence of guilt or more accurately the lack of evidence of guilt.

I personally think Zimmerman shot him because he was pissed he got his ass kicked, I think circumstantially the evidence supports this.

However I don't think in any way my opinion derived by looking at all of it for months meets the reasonable doubt standard.

That in my opinion is where you fail and folks like Londo prevail.

You are trying to prove zimmermans innocence which is just as difficult as trying to prove his guilt. Londo simply states the lack of evidence as the primary factor, which is the correct approach and doesn't require demonizing Martin and his family.


We have 4 camps here posting not just two.

Camp 1. Zimmerman is guilty obviously
Camp 2. Zimmerman probably shot him for reasons other than reasonable defense but there is no proving it.
Camp 3. Zimmerman shot him in defense this is certain.
Camp 4. Evidence supports defense more than murder.

If you are in camp #1 or camp #3
You are the problem, as there simply is not enough evidence to support either camp.

 

[spidey07]

Didn't GZ have his screams recorded and they were nothing like the phone screams? Perhaps the trauma of the situation made him not remember his own screams? What's the excuse there?

I mentioned earlier that on the shootings and self defense videos I've watched the man who feared for his life lets out shrill girly almost unhuman screams. It's the very stem of the brain taking over to do anything to not get killed.

You can't reproduce that kind of primal fear or scream.

 

[TerryMathews]

Oh, that's right... He most likely didn't know he was going to get shot until it already happened.

Which means Zimmerman didn't exhaust all means to end the confrontation non lethally.

He's under no obligation to.

 

[spidey07]

He's under no obligation to.

In case you haven't heard, there is no duty to retreat in Florida.

 

[momeNt]

I mentioned earlier that on the shootings and self defense videos I've watched the man who feared for his life lets out shrill girly almost unhuman screams. It's the very stem of the brain taking over to do anything to not get killed.

You can't reproduce that kind of primal fear or scream.

So we can't know who was screaming, and TM's father saying, those screams aren't my son's, can only be counted on as much as GZ's recorded screaming.

 

[TerryMathews]

It very well may have been Zimmerman screaming. That's not the issue, the issue is experts have stated evidence of it as inconclusive. Yet you trot this out as fact absent evidence yet slam others for trotting out their positions as fact absent of evidence. It's just one example of your hypocrisy on display when it comes to this case.

This case comes down to evidence of guilt or more accurately the lack of evidence of guilt.

I personally think Zimmerman shot him because he was pissed he got his ass kicked, I think circumstantially the evidence supports this.

However I don't think in any way my opinion derived by looking at all of it for months meets the reasonable doubt standard.

That in my opinion is where you fail and folks like Londo prevail.

You are trying to prove zimmermans innocence which is just as difficult as trying to prove his guilt. Londo simply states the lack of evidence as the primary factor, which is the correct approach and doesn't require demonizing Martin and his family.


We have 4 camps here posting not just two.

Camp 1. Zimmerman is guilty obviously
Camp 2. Zimmerman probably shot him for reasons other than reasonable defense but there is no proving it.
Camp 3. Zimmerman shot him in defense this is certain.
Camp 4. Evidence supports defense more than murder.

If you are in camp #1 or camp #3
You are the problem, as there simply is not enough evidence to support either camp.

I agree with you. Well said.

 

[soundforbjt]

If the only difference in outcome in this case was that TM lived and GZ was killed and all physical & recorded evidence was the same (but TM's story was different), would you feel the same about TM being allowed to go free?

 

[Tom]

I mentioned earlier that on the shootings and self defense videos I've watched the man who feared for his life lets out shrill girly almost unhuman screams. It's the very stem of the brain taking over to do anything to not get killed.

You can't reproduce that kind of primal fear or scream.

thats the scream heard right before the shot, not the repetitive chanting of help me.

I think its likely they both screamed or yelled, but there's not much chance of proving it either way so its just going to be up to the jury what they make of it.

 

[Tom]

It very well may have been Zimmerman screaming. That's not the issue, the issue is experts have stated evidence of it as inconclusive. Yet you trot this out as fact absent evidence yet slam others for trotting out their positions as fact absent of evidence. It's just one example of your hypocrisy on display when it comes to this case.

This case comes down to evidence of guilt or more accurately the lack of evidence of guilt.

I personally think Zimmerman shot him because he was pissed he got his ass kicked, I think circumstantially the evidence supports this.

However I don't think in any way my opinion derived by looking at all of it for months meets the reasonable doubt standard.

That in my opinion is where you fail and folks like Londo prevail.

You are trying to prove zimmermans innocence which is just as difficult as trying to prove his guilt. Londo simply states the lack of evidence as the primary factor, which is the correct approach and doesn't require demonizing Martin and his family.


We have 4 camps here posting not just two.

Camp 1. Zimmerman is guilty obviously
Camp 2. Zimmerman probably shot him for reasons other than reasonable defense but there is no proving it.
Camp 3. Zimmerman shot him in defense this is certain.
Camp 4. Evidence supports defense more than murder.

If you are in camp #1 or camp #3
You are the problem, as there simply is not enough evidence to support either camp.

A very nice post. I'm in camp 2 except I think there's some possibility there's enough evidence to convict. And there's also some possibility that I will believe Zimmerman's testimony when I see it and will therefore decide it was self-defense.

 

[spidey07]

If the only difference in outcome in this case was that TM lived and GZ was killed and all physical & recorded evidence was the same (but TM's story was different), would you feel the same about TM being allowed to go free?

No, because you are not allowed to mount and bash somebody's head in for self defense as they scream for their life.

If you do that you are imminently putting the guy on bottom in great fear for his life or bodily harm and you might get shot when you do that.

 

[spidey07]

thats the scream heard right before the shot, not the repetitive chanting of help me.

I think its likely they both screamed or yelled, but there's not much chance of proving it either way so its just going to be up to the jury what they make of it.

This case isn't going to a jury. There is zero evidence zimmerman committed a crime and all evidence actualy proves he acted in lawful self defense. If it goes to a jury then it will be a great miscarriage of justice.

 

[TerryMathews]

If the only difference in outcome in this case was that TM lived and GZ was killed and all physical & recorded evidence was the same (but TM's story was different), would you feel the same about TM being allowed to go free?

No, because mounting someone isn't self defense.

Now if your question were how would I feel if the situations were reversed, then yes I would have no issue with Martin walking away.

If there is evidence that disproves Martin was on top, I'm open to reconsider my position however everything I've seen strongly indicates Martin was on top at the moment he was shot. And then there's Johns testimony...

 

[spidey07]

No, because mounting someone isn't self defense.

Now if your question were how would I feel if the situations were reversed, then yes I would have no issue with Martin walking away.

If there is evidence that disproves Martin was on top, I'm open to reconsider my position however everything I've seen strongly indicates Martin was on top at the moment he was shot. And then there's Johns testimony...

That's what seals it from a legal perspective. There is plenty of precedent that when the victim is on his back and attacker above or over him the victim is presumed to be in imminent fear for their life and can automatically shoot. That's the law.

 

[Geosurface]

If the only difference in outcome in this case was that TM lived and GZ was killed and all physical & recorded evidence was the same (but TM's story was different), would you feel the same about TM being allowed to go free?

No.

If TM had lived and GZ died, TM would be going to jail for murder and this would be completely justified.

The situation would be very different, because the survivor would have a witness saying that he saw him on top of the deceased, beating on him, holding him down, as the deceased screamed for help. I don't for an instant believe John would've walked back any of his initial statement at all, in this alternate scenario.

You'd have the fact that the deceased was waiting on police arrival, and had involved police before anyone else.

A legitimate look would be taken at Trayvon's juvenile record, school troubles, etc. The justice system starting with cops all the way to a judge would know exactly what kind of kid they were dealing with, and treat him accordingly.

If GZ died from a gunshot, the fact that TM ended up killing a man with that man's gun, would look rather bad for him. If GZ died from head trauma, that would look even worse.

What could TM say? "Yo man this guy was doggin' me, followin' me n' sheeeit, I hads to regulate on his cracka ass" ?

In seriousness, okay he could claim GZ drew the weapon or was trying to detain him... yadda yadda, but the cops would be like

"Alright look son, this guy had called us, thought you were a burglar, now we find out from your school you got caught with burgled jewelry super recently. So it sounds like this guy knew exactly what you were, and we think you went off on him and killed him, deliberately or not, for catching you casing places. Based on what he said on his call to us, it sounds to us like you were casing houses.

He's the neighborhood watch guy, and has a legal permit to carry that gun. You end up killing him... as he was waiting for us to arrive, after he'd involved us. This doesn't look good for you at all, son. We've also got a witness who says you had him pinned to the ground, you were on top, and he was screaming for mercy and help. He's got all the injuries, all we found on you was a scraped knuckle from beating on him.

Enjoy prison, you little fuck."

 

[momeNt]

It could still be self defense if he thought GZ was reaching for a gun. You can't just stand up and fight fisticuffs when the other person has a gun, you have to fight until you have control of the gun and no longer have to fear for your life. It's quite obvious TM didn't reach that point in the fight...

 

[soundforbjt]

No, because you are not allowed to mount and bash somebody's head in for self defense as they scream for their life.

If you do that you are imminently putting the guy on bottom in great fear for his life or bodily harm and you might get shot when you do that.

Even if TM's story is that GZ was intent on attacking/murdering him and TM was just defending himself? Remember you have to throw out everything GZ claimed. The story now is GZ is the one attacking, and TM is the one screaming for John or someone else to help him keep GZ from shooting him.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

It very well may have been Zimmerman screaming. That's not the issue, the issue is experts have stated evidence of it as inconclusive. Yet you trot this out as fact absent evidence yet slam others for trotting out their positions as fact absent of evidence. It's just one example of your hypocrisy on display when it comes to this case.

This case comes down to evidence of guilt or more accurately the lack of evidence of guilt.

I personally think Zimmerman shot him because he was pissed he got his ass kicked, I think circumstantially the evidence supports this.

However I don't think in any way my opinion derived by looking at all of it for months meets the reasonable doubt standard.

That in my opinion is where you fail and folks like Londo prevail.

You are trying to prove zimmermans innocence which is just as difficult as trying to prove his guilt. Londo simply states the lack of evidence as the primary factor, which is the correct approach and doesn't require demonizing Martin and his family.


We have 4 camps here posting not just two.

Camp 1. Zimmerman is guilty obviously
Camp 2. Zimmerman probably shot him for reasons other than reasonable defense but there is no proving it.
Camp 3. Zimmerman shot him in defense this is certain.
Camp 4. Evidence supports defense more than murder.

If you are in camp #1 or camp #3
You are the problem, as there simply is not enough evidence to support either camp.

Though I don't see things the same as you in this case, the rest is spot on and I also have to say "Well said".

 

[TerryMathews]

Even if TM's story is that GZ was intent on attacking/murdering him and TM was just defending himself? Remember you have to throw out everything GZ claimed. The story now is GZ is the one attacking, and TM is the one screaming for John or someone else to help him keep GZ from shooting him.

There's still physical evidence. You have to alter the situation. Sitting on someone and messing with their face whether punching or slamming, simply isn't a defensive posture.

In your hypothetical, why did Martin fear for his life? With Zimmermann we have physical evidence and John. There is no evidence to suggest that Martin knew his life was in danger.