Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Londo_Jowo]

The most disgusting thing in this whole thread is those who want to change the law after the fact and violate GZ's rights afforded to him via the US Constitution and/or Florida Law/Statutes.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

This case is not clear cut in any way and its ridiculous to say it is and shouldn't even be decided by the judicial system.

Yet Florida law/statutes allows the Judge to make the decision to grant immunity or send it to a jury trial. Let the judicial system work in accordance with the pertinent laws/statutes.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The most disgusting thing in this whole thread is those who want to change the law after the fact and violate GZ's rights afforded to him via the US Constitution and/or Florida Law/Statutes.

they want to change the law retroactively because they feel a need to ensure/justify the kangaroo court that they have setup.

If they can not guarantee a win with the existing rules; change the rules to ensure a win.

Stack the deck
Load the dice
Bribe the judge/jury
etc.

 

[airdata]

- No evidence that GZ confronted TM at any time, least of all "again" (implying two times total) very strong evidence that Trayvon doubled back, and confronted GZ. Even DD's account supports this. GZ had no idea where TM was at end of NEN call.

We have clear evidence he chased after that fucking punk. That's really all a jury needs to know. If this was a straight up murder investigation that alone would be at the top of the evidence heap.

- GZ did not get into trouble for statements he made, but rather for his wife's statements about their finances. Remember, though, she offered to get the complete, most up to date information on their PayPal account from GZ's brother for BDLR at that very time. He declined. The code talk GZ and his wife used on the phone while he was in prison, upon further inspection and reflection, seems plausibly like it was intended to obscure amounts FROM OTHER PRISONERS more than anyone else. Nonetheless, they clearly could've handled the situation better. They had, however, been given about as much reason to fear and mistrust the legal system as you could imagine.

He told her what to do. He was complicit in her actions.

- No evidence of GZ "living high on the hog" from donations, anyone who envies the life GZ has lead since that night is misguided.

Who doesn't envy being handed a quarter of a million dollars for being a psychopath? Seeing as how a large percentage of the us population makes less than a 10th of that money in a year, yes... he was living high on the hog. Paying off all his credit cards. Paying for his wifes school. Get the fuck out of here if you don't think that's absurd.

- Not only is it not clearly a "murder" as airdata says, there actually does not appear to be any way it could even POSSIBLY be a murder.

He made a conscious decision to shoot and kill him. That's text book murder. You guys want to cry about the idea that Trayvon could have sucker punched him... And then you think pulling a gun and shooting with no warning or anything is ok. You're a fucking idiot if you really think that. He could have ended the confrontation by making Trayvon aware he had a gun. Without doing so he did the pistol equivalent of a sucker punch and took the life of a minor.

It's hilarious that you guys would pretend you're upstanding citizens and then you condone the killing of children.

- If the abuse levels for Aderal and the other drug were as prolific as stated, they would quite simply be made illegal.

wow another one? You're simply a fucking idiot. You're denying simple facts. Substances dont just become illegal if they're prone to being abused... what kind of idiot are you? If that was the case there'd be a ton of prescription drugs only available on the black market.

Jesus, you amaze me. You keep up this front as if you're a reasonable guy for so many pages of this thread and then you go full retard denying simple facts left and right.

- Classy claims there is no evidence TM beat GZ, that there were no cuts on GZ's face. This is categorically, undeniably false based on evidence that has been posted multiple times in this thread. Classy is IRRETRIEVABLY blinded by race-loyalty, and his opinion on this case is completely tainted and invalidated.

While the assertion there was no physical altercation is clearly incorrect, we've already established that his injuries were minor. Even Londo Jowo agreed to that many pages ago.

Just keep it real. You guys pretend there's all sorts of things that just aren't a possibility in the case or in general. When we live in a world where its not unusual to see people eating other people's faces in the news.. you really ned to open your minds up.

It's not out of the realm of possibility for somebody who's facing prison to slam their own head into the ground and make it appear worse than it was. Much stranger things happen every day.

 

[TerryMathews]

We have clear evidence he chased after that fucking punk. That's really all a jury needs to know. If this was a straight up murder investigation that alone would be at the top of the evidence heap.



He told her what to do. He was complicit in her actions.



Who doesn't envy being handed a quarter of a million dollars for being a psychopath? Seeing as how a large percentage of the us population makes less than a 10th of that money in a year, yes... he was living high on the hog. Paying off all his credit cards. Paying for his wifes school. Get the fuck out of here if you don't think that's absurd.




He made a conscious decision to shoot and kill him. That's text book murder. You guys want to cry about the idea that Trayvon could have sucker punched him... And then you think pulling a gun and shooting with no warning or anything is ok. You're a fucking idiot if you really think that. He could have ended the confrontation by making Trayvon aware he had a gun. Without doing so he did the pistol equivalent of a sucker punch and took the life of a minor.

It's hilarious that you guys would pretend you're upstanding citizens and then you condone the killing of children.



wow another one? You're simply a fucking idiot. You're denying simple facts. Substances dont just become illegal if they're prone to being abused... what kind of idiot are you? If that was the case there'd be a ton of prescription drugs only available on the black market.

Jesus, you amaze me. You keep up this front as if you're a reasonable guy for so many pages of this thread and then you go full retard denying simple facts left and right.




While the assertion there was no physical altercation is clearly incorrect, we've already established that his injuries were minor. Even Londo Jowo agreed to that many pages ago.

Just keep it real. You guys pretend there's all sorts of things that just aren't a possibility in the case or in general. When we live in a world where its not unusual to see people eating other people's faces in the news.. you really ned to open your minds up.

It's not out of the realm of possibility for somebody who's facing prison to slam their own head into the ground and make it appear worse than it was. Much stranger things happen every day.

"The realm of possibility" benefits Zimmerman. How is it after all this time, you don't understand how guilt beyond all reasonable doubt works?

 

[soundforbjt]

they want to change the law retroactively because they feel a need to ensure/justify the kangaroo court that they have setup.

If they can not guarantee a win with the existing rules; change the rules to ensure a win.

Stack the deck
Load the dice
Bribe the judge/jury
etc.

Kinda like the repubs are doing with voting laws this cycle?

 

[TerryMathews]

Kinda like the repubs are doing with voting laws this cycle?

Yep. Disenfranchising those poor "undocumented workers". Damn the man.

 

[airdata]

"The realm of possibility" benefits Zimmerman. How is it after all this time, you don't understand how guilt beyond all reasonable doubt works?

The only thing keeping this case from being a straight up murder is George Zimmerman's story.

Zimmerman's history of lying and deceptive behavior makes his claims lose alot of merit.

In the world I live in, you don't believe a liar after they lie to you. You don't just take a scum bag at his word especially when said scumbag is facing a nice stretch in prison.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The only thing keeping this case from being a straight up murder is George Zimmerman's story.

Zimmerman's history of lying and deceptive behavior makes his claims lose alot of merit.

In the world I live in, you don't believe a liar after they lie to you. You don't just take a scum bag at his word especially when said scumbag is facing a nice stretch in prison.

Wrong, the main thing that keeping this case from being a straight up murder is evidence and witness statements that corroborate GZ's claim of self defense.

 

[Tom]

Yet Florida law/statutes allows the Judge to make the decision to grant immunity or send it to a jury trial. Let the judicial system work in accordance with the pertinent laws/statutes.

I consider that within the scope of the judicial system that should evaluate the case.

My issue is more with those who don't think even that level of scrutiny is warranted, or those who dismiss the possibility it was legally permissible self-defense.

 

[Tom]

Wrong, the main thing that keeping this case from being a straight up murder is evidence and witness statements that corroborate GZ's claim of self defense.

Except they don't.

You see, the statements Zimmerman makes on the recorded call to police are evidence.

They don't fit your pre-concieved opinion, so you ignore them. Or discount them.

But they are real. And your opinion about them, or mine, isn't evidence.

The same thing with Zimmerman's injuries. They establish there was a conflict, their meaning beyond that is just a matter of opinion.

 

[Geosurface]

Even if GZ had died of a heart attack right after shooting Trayvon, the police would've easily ruled this self-defense.

Think about it, use your brain.

The cops show up and find two dead men. One from heart failure, one from gun shot. They easily deduce the one was shot by the other... they find wounds all over the head of the other man, including a broken nose, two large gashes on the back of his head, and as the EMT stated his head is about 45% covered in blood.

The other man, who has died from the gun shot, has no wounds on him other than the bullet hole, and an offensive wound to one finger.

A witness saw the man in the hoodie on top of the other man moments before the gun shot. He saw the man on top, who was shot, raining down MMA style blows onto the other man. Holding the other man down, as that man yelled for help.

Shortly the police figure out that the dead man is the neighborhood watch guy who had called the department just prior, and was reporting the other guy as a suspicious, possible burglar.

Clear as day that it was self-defense. Clear as fucking day. The only reason we find ourselves in a situation now where anyone questions this, is due to emotion, ignorance, and racism. It really is that simple.

Emotion, ignorance, racism. Remove these... there is no story.

 

[lotus503]

Except they don't.

You see, the statements Zimmerman makes on the recorded call to police are evidence.

They don't fit your pre-concieved opinion, so you ignore them. Or discount them.

But they are real. And your opinion about them, or mine, isn't evidence.

The same thing with Zimmerman's injuries. They establish there was a conflict, their meaning beyond that is just a matter of opinion.

Exactly absolutist on both sides are fucking retarded.

Until we see all of the evidence presented its all speculation as to whether a crime was committed.

What we do know factually is that Zimmerman shot Martin and is claiming self defense. The fact he has lied and was involved with trying to mislead the court is not evidence if his guilt, rather evidence he places little value in honesty.

 

[umbrella39]

Yep. Disenfranchising those poor "undocumented workers". Damn the man.

GTFU

 

[soundforbjt]

Wrong, the main thing that keeping this case from being a straight up murder is evidence and witness statements that corroborate GZ's claim of self defense.

Which eyewitness (and remember eyewitness testimonies are often incorrect) saw TM attack GZ?

Which eyewitness (and remember eyewitness testimonies are often incorrect) saw GZ screaming beyond any doubt?

Which eyewitness (and remember eyewitness testimonys are often incorrect) saw more than a scant few seconds of the altercation?

Evidence can go in more directions than just GZ's account and still hold up.

Without GZ's claims, the defense has very little to help them.

 

[soundforbjt]

Even if GZ had died of a heart attack right after shooting Trayvon, the police would've easily ruled this self-defense.

Think about it, use your brain.

The cops show up and find two dead men. One from heart failure, one from gun shot. They easily deduce the one was shot by the other... they find wounds all over the head of the other man, including a broken nose, two large gashes on the back of his head, and as the EMT stated his head is about 45% covered in blood.

The other man, who has died from the gun shot, has no wounds on him other than the bullet hole, and an offensive wound to one finger.

A witness saw the man in the hoodie on top of the other man moments before the gun shot. He saw the man on top, who was shot, raining down MMA style blows onto the other man. Holding the other man down, as that man yelled for help.

Shortly the police figure out that the dead man is the neighborhood watch guy who had called the department just prior, and was reporting the other guy as a suspicious, possible burglar.

Clear as day that it was self-defense. Clear as fucking day. The only reason we find ourselves in a situation now where anyone questions this, is due to emotion, ignorance, and racism. It really is that simple.

Emotion, ignorance, racism. Remove these... there is no story.

Still clinging to recanted testimony and emotion and ignorance I see. With a good dose of speculation thrown in...

 

[Tom]

responding to the heart attack scenario..

That isn't what happened.

But to engage in the same kind of BS, what if Zimmerman was overcome with having shot an unarmed kid and shot himself.

Then what would the police call it ? self-defense and suicide ? murder and suicide ?

What if Zimmerman made no statement ? If its so clear, why did they take him into custody ?

You know the most likely reason they didn't charge him, that night ? Because the way the Florida law is written, it punishes law enforcement for putting a matter as important as the death of a person into the hands of the judicial system, unless they are virtually certain the perpetrator is guilty. Which it isn't their job to decide.

That isn't justice, its denial of justice through intimidation.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Which eyewitness (and remember eyewitness testimonies are often incorrect) saw TM attack GZ?

Which eyewitness (and remember eyewitness testimonies are often incorrect) saw GZ screaming beyond any doubt?

Which eyewitness (and remember eyewitness testimonys are often incorrect) saw more than a scant few seconds of the altercation?

Evidence can go in more directions than just GZ's account and still hold up.

Without GZ's claims, the defense has very little to help them.

Two witnesses place TM on top of GZ just prior to the shot being fired. The ballistics data also corroborates that TM was on top when he got shot.

 

[soundforbjt]

Two witnesses place TM on top of GZ just prior to the shot being fired. The ballistics data also corroborates that TM was on top when he got shot.

Physically on top or above (leaning over)? Can the ballistics prove that without GZ's claims?

 

[Tom]

Two witnesses place TM on top of GZ just prior to the shot being fired. The ballistics data also corroborates that TM was on top when he got shot.

That's consistent with Martin not wanting to be shot and killed, holding his killer at bay.

Its also consistent with Zimmerman becoming frustrated.

Either of those are at least as reasonable as Zimmerman's story.

The problem I think you have is, you think the starting point is Zimmerman's story and unless that's disproven, that's the end of it.

But that isn't right. Zimmerman's story isn't the starting point. A judge or jury could completely disregard it, or if he doesn't testify it won't even be a factor in the case.

 

[airdata]

I guess I'm behind the times here seeing as I've never listened to this interview w\ DeeDee before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=g-vrec

@13:00 She says she hears 'the old man' saying in an angry tone " What you doing around here " Then @13:00 Trayvon saying ' Get off, Get off '. Which would indicate he was being grabbed.

Trayvon described the guy watching him to DeeDee as looking creepy and crazy.

She describes Zimmerman as sounding winded as he was running after Trayvon. Now, I know this all throws a huge wrench into the claims you guys have about how it all went down... about Trayvon hiding and laying in wait for Zimmerman to ambush him. The fact that this is months old makes it even more funny since you guys keep repeating the same stuff over and over again that's apparently been debunked by this witness.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Still clinging to recanted testimony and emotion and ignorance I see. With a good dose of speculation thrown in...

that recanted testimony was due in part to LEO pressure.

In the beginning, witnesses they state what was fresh in their minds. Unaltered and pure.

Once they are re-questioned from a different angle; they respond by leaning to that angle - human nature - acknowledge authority figures.

Then after someone with a axe to grind starts planting seeds of doubt; they back off the story to fit more in line with what was wanted by the investigator.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

That's consistent with Martin not wanting to be shot and killed, holding his killer at bay.

Its also consistent with Zimmerman becoming frustrated.

Either of those are at least as reasonable as Zimmerman's story.

The problem I think you have is, you think the starting point is Zimmerman's story and unless that's disproven, that's the end of it.

But that isn't right. Zimmerman's story isn't the starting point. A judge or jury could completely disregard it, or if he doesn't testify it won't even be a factor in the case.

The state must disprove GZ's claim of self defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

They must also prove all the elements of 2nd degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[TerryMathews]

I guess I'm behind the times here seeing as I've never listened to this interview w\ DeeDee before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=g-vrec

@13:00 She says she hears 'the old man' saying in an angry tone " What you doing around here " Then @13:00 Trayvon saying ' Get off, Get off '. Which would indicate he was being grabbed.

Trayvon described the guy watching him to DeeDee as looking creepy and crazy.

She describes Zimmerman as sounding winded as he was running after Trayvon. Now, I know this all throws a huge wrench into the claims you guys have about how it all went down... about Trayvon hiding and laying in wait for Zimmerman to ambush him. The fact that this is months old makes it even more funny since you guys keep repeating the same stuff over and over again that's apparently been debunked by this witness.

The hands free kit was in Trayvons pocket, she didn't "witness" anything.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Physically on top or above (leaning over)? Can the ballistics prove that without GZ's claims?

Yes' the ballistics can prove that TM was over GZ when he was shot. The one witness you want to discount also stated that GZ was struggling to get free and this was during his interview with the FDLE.