Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[M0RPH]

any lawyers? The girl on the cell phone, I believe her testimony contradicts Z's alibi. Since Z states that he had turned around when M attacked him, while the girl states that the fight started while they were facing each other.

Is this enough to arrest Z?

The girl cannot say the fight started when they are facing each other... she's hearing things, not seeing them. All we know, from her account, is that Z was the last one to say something, when he asked 'what are you doing here'? Maybe he got nothing but a cold stare, decided to turn around and start walking back to his truck, and was jumped by T?

 

[SpatiallyAware]

He's paraphrasing a bit, but go back and look at the remark from martin's girlfriend.

She's says when Martin noticed Z following he pulled his hood up. I.e., Martin's hood was down, and only pulled it up because Z was following him.

Fern

soundforbjt I saw your nested quote where you were asking me a question.

FYI I have you on ignore because all of your posts very clearly indicate that you are thinking with your emotions rather than using logic.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I have only one question, why is not Zimmerman already arrested and in jail? The local cops are no longer in charge, its the A team from the FBI who will likely soon find Zimmerrman should be in jail.

Which may go to show that based on the evidence and testimony nothing refutes his self-defense claim or there's no probable cause to charge him.

The law is quite clear.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection

 

[SpatiallyAware]

any lawyers? The girl on the cell phone, I believe her testimony contradicts Z's alibi. Since Z states that he had turned around when M attacked him, while the girl states that the fight started while they were facing each other.

Is this enough to arrest Z?

This is a girl who only knows what she heard through the phone, and even then it's not her account but what the family lawyers have advised her to say.

On top of this, it's a teenage girl who is dealing with a dead boyfriend. Their accounts generally aren't that reliable.

 

[soundforbjt]

His girlfriend account (filtered through the family lawyers) claimed that he put his hood up when he saw zimmerman.

So some say the girlfriend's testimony is wrong/hearsey when it shows Z wasn't on his way back to the truck, but yet when she says T put up his hoodie when he saw Z making him look suspicious to Z, you're taking that as truth. You can't have it both ways.

Where's the logic in that?

 

[SpatiallyAware]

And he was not even a member of the neighborhood watch... just some random guy who had an obsession of being a cop.

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/tra...ecognized-neighborhood-watch-organization.php

Most of these communities are not members of this pyramid scheme neighborhood watch national program that your link is alluding to.

The neighborhood did have their own 'official' watch program, where zimmerman was appointed (IE nominated by he neighbors) to run it.

 

[corwin]

Most of these communities are not members of this pyramid scheme neighborhood watch national program that your link is alluding to.

The neighborhood did have their own 'official' watch program, where zimmerman was appointed (IE nominated by he neighbors) to run it.

And he wasn't even "officially" on patrol anyway...so his place in NW is pointless

 

[Fern]

So some say the girlfriend's testimony is wrong/hearsey when it shows Z wasn't on his way back to the truck, but yet when she says T put up his hoodie when he saw Z making him look suspicious to Z, you're taking that as truth. You can't have it both ways.

Where's the logic in that?

The girlfriend's testimony about what M told her, and what she heard Z say neither confirm or refute Z's assertion that he was on the way back to his truck when the fight started.

Her speculation that M's ear piece came out etc because M was pushed does. But it's total speculation on her part how/why the call ended.

And since the call ended she couldn't possibly have heard anything after that and has nothing to offer as to whether the fight started immediately after that, or later. Nothing but speculation.

She did say clearly she heard M tell her he put up his hood because M noticed Z was following him. Now, that in itself does not prove M actually did that (she couldn't see to confirm), it just means M told her that.

Fern

 

[Fern]

And he wasn't even "officially" on patrol anyway...so his place in NW is pointless

Good point, particularly regarding claims that the NW program will be sued.

Police Chief said he wasn't patrolling, he was on his way to run some errands.

Fern

 

[micrometers]

So can the family sue the homeowner association? Perhaps for negligence?

 

[corwin]

So can the family sue the homeowner association? Perhaps for negligence?

Because a resident shot someone with a legally owned and carried weapon they had no idea about? I don't see how since this isn't California...



That's just a joke about California, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was somehow true

 

[soundforbjt]

The girlfriend's testimony about what M told her, and what she heard Z say neither confirm or refute Z's assertion that he was on the way back to his truck when the fight started.

Her speculation that M's ear piece came out etc because M was pushed does. But it's total speculation on her part how/why the call ended.

And since the call ended she couldn't possibly have heard anything after that and has nothing to offer as to whether the fight started immediately after that, or later. Nothing but speculation.

She did say clearly she heard M tell her he put up his hood because M noticed Z was following him. Now, that in itself does not prove M actually did that (she couldn't see to confirm), it just means M told her that.

Fern

T saw Z first and asked "why are you following me?" If Z was on his way back to his truck and not following T, How did he find him?

 

[Fern]

So can the family sue the homeowner association? Perhaps for negligence?

IANAL, but

My first question would be why?

Because one resident shot another?

If it was easy to sue the HOA for crimes committed there they'd already be broke. There's been a lot of robberies.

If Z wasn't on 'duty' I would think it difficult to drag the HOA in via the NW program connection.

Fern

 

[soundforbjt]

So can the family sue the homeowner association? Perhaps for negligence?

Possibly in a civil trial if there is one. Don Vito would be able to have a better opinion.

 

[soundforbjt]

IANAL, but

My first question would be why?

Because one resident shot another?

If it was easy to sue the HOA for crimes committed there they'd already be broke. There's been a lot of robberies.

If Z wasn't on 'duty' I would think it difficult to drag the HOA in via the NW program connection.

Fern

They had to OK him as a watch person, correct?

 

[corwin]

IANAL, but

My first question would be why?

Because one resident shot another?

If it was easy to sue the HOA for crimes committed there they'd already be broke. There's been a lot of robberies.

If Z wasn't on 'duty' I would think it difficult to drag the HOA in via the NW program connection.

Fern

They had to OK him as a watch person, correct?

And an HOA has no oversight or control of NW...it's the neighborhood itself

 

[micrometers]

T saw Z first and asked "why are you following me?" If Z was on his way back to his truck and not following T, How did he find him?

The problem is the sheer amount of time that transpired between her testimony and the crime. Since witness testimony will degrade over time and especially if she consumed reports on what happened, it becomes compromised.

 

[Fern]

T saw Z first and asked "why are you following me?" If Z was on his way back to his truck and not following T, How did he find him?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

Z could have been on his way back to the truck when he came upon Z by coincidence (i.e. wasn't following but came upon him).

Sounds like you're saying Z claims he lost Z and was heading back to the truck. This I don't recall. I thought Z was going to his truck to call the PD?

So, if Z was following him it could be that after the two spoke Z decided to head back to his truck to call the police.

After the initial exchange we do not know what exactly happen, or when it happened. Just because the call terminated does not mean a fight began immediately.

Fern

 

[werepossum]

The problem is the sheer amount of time that transpired between her testimony and the crime. Since witness testimony will degrade over time and especially if she consumed reports on what happened, it becomes compromised.

Plus as the girlfriend she's an interested party. However - since it directly contradicts Zimmerman's statement and he obviously has even more of an interest, I'm going to make a wild ass guess that her testimony will be allowable.

Of course, there may not even be a trial. The grand jury may decide there is not legally enough to indict. Or if they do, Zimmerman may well cop a plea to manslaughter to avoid the very real possibility of a murder one conviction.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

So can the family sue the homeowner association? Perhaps for negligence?

If the self-defense claim stands I don't see how they can win a lawsuit against Zimmerman or the HOA. I know Don disagrees with this assessment but from what I read the Florida Supreme Court stance is that the immunity from criminal prosecution and civil actions means exactly that. Once a judge rules he has immunity based on self-defense any legal fees incurred by Zimmerman will have to be paid by the plaintiff and the case dismissed.

 

[Fern]

They had to OK him as a watch person, correct?

Z wasn't on watch.

Police Chief says Z was out, not on watch patrol, but to run errands.

Fern

 

[soundforbjt]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

Z could have been on his way back to the truck when he came upon Z by coincidence (i.e. wasn't following but came upon him).

Sounds like you're saying Z claims he lost Z and was heading back to the truck. This I don't recall. I thought Z was going to his truck to call the PD?

So, if Z was following him it could be that after the two spoke Z decided to head back to his truck to call the police.

After the initial exchange we do not know what exactly happen, or when it happened. Just because the call terminated does not mean a fight began immediately.

Fern

The girl said she heard "pushing" before the phone went dead, iirc.

 

[airdata]

They said on the news that the police are going with self defense... Which given the evidence shows they are also racists. Otherwise they would be investigating from day 1. But they saw that it was just a black kid and moved along.

 

[blankslate]

Of course, there may not even be a trial. The grand jury may decide there is not legally enough to indict. Or if they do, Zimmerman may well cop a plea to manslaughter to avoid the very real possibility of a murder one conviction.

I listen to a talk show hosted by a lawyer who quit the profession in perhaps the last 5 years and his assertion is that a D.A. has a lot of leeway in the evidence presented to a Grand Jury.

I recall that he said a D.A. could get a Grand Jury to indict a block of cheese.

Maybe we can get Don Vito Corleone to confirm or deny.

 

[M0RPH]

They said on the news that the police are going with self defense... Which given the evidence shows they are also racists. Otherwise they would be investigating from day 1. But they saw that it was just a black kid and moved along.

Or the available evidence points to self defense and the police can't manufacture new evidence in order to prosecute someone and appease the black community?