UN solution for the North Korea problem

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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,355
19,536
146
Comparing the position of North Korea in 2010 to Germany in 1938 is really really stupid. If you wish to meet every provocation of another nation with war, that's fine. We will be fighting wars nonstop for the rest of your life, however, and the costs of this will eventually overwhelm us.

People who aren't insane however, will tailor their response to the relative costs and gains in each situation. This is why you will never see any person in charge of a major nation ever follow the path that you suggest, at least not for long.

I mean seriously, did you ever stop to wonder why no country behaves as you want us to? Did that clue you in to the fact that it might be because your ideas are horrible?

Appeasement has NEVER stopped a rouge nation. In fact, in every instance it has made things worse. Isolation works long term, war short term, but appeasement ALWAYS backfires.

What NK just did was an act of war. And you want to reward them for it. That is insane no matter how you look at it.
 
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sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,696
0
76
Why stop there? Syria also behaves belligerently towards us. Lets invade them too. Yemen has been the source of quite a few terrorists recently. Invasion number 3! China is currently attempting to undercut our interests in Southeast Asia, manipulates their currency to attack our economy, and is clearly building up their military forces to eventually rival the US, lets attack them now to prevent this!

Did I miss anyone else we should put on the invasion list?

Remember guys, CUT SPENDING ON DOMESTIC PROGRAMS OR THE US IS SCREWED.

Also, INVADE EVERY COUNTRY THAT LOOKS AT US CROSS-EYED AT THE COST OF BILLIONS OR TRILLIONS.

We take out Kim Jong-Il like we Saddam!!!! YEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH

Let's bitch about deficits, while asking for lower taxes and more wars!
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Why stop there? Syria also behaves belligerently towards us. Lets invade them too. Yemen has been the source of quite a few terrorists recently. Invasion number 3! China is currently attempting to undercut our interests in Southeast Asia, manipulates their currency to attack our economy, and is clearly building up their military forces to eventually rival the US, lets attack them now to prevent this!

Did I miss anyone else we should put on the invasion list?

Remember guys, CUT SPENDING ON DOMESTIC PROGRAMS OR THE US IS SCREWED.

Also, INVADE EVERY COUNTRY THAT LOOKS AT US CROSS-EYED AT THE COST OF BILLIONS OR TRILLIONS.

Totally different, Iran is unique in having death wish and soon to be nukes. Even Arab nations around them want us to take em out.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
55,355
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Appeasement has NEVER stopped a rouge nation. In fact, in every instance it has made things worse. Isolation works long term, war short term, but appeasement ALWAYS backfires.

What NK just did was an act of war. And you want to reward them for it. That is insane no matter how you look at it.

Appeasement has never stopped a country with beautiful, rosy cheeks, I agree.

As for your assessment of history, it's ridiculous. You're just trying to use a loaded term to discredit a way of dealing with countries that we've used for quite a long time in the past, and will continue to use in the future to great effect.

I noticed how you ignored the fact that no country on earth follows what you suggest, and just continued to blindly assert that you were right.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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It sure is. The North Korean military threat would be substantially the same regardless of the aid that we give the country however.

How the hell do you figure that? We send food aid = we feed the military = North Koreans are free to build weapons = those not needed to build weapons starve anyway.

We don't send food aid? Either North Koreans starve to death and (since dead men build no nukes) cannot build as many weapons OR North Korea is forced to shift more people from building weapons to producing food and therefore cannot build as many weapons OR North Korea is forced to shift more people from building weapons to producing goods that can be exchanged for food and therefore cannot build as many weapons. Any way you cut it, the outside world feeding North Korea means North Korea has more weapons. You may put off North Korea attacking South Korea out of desperation and stupidity, but you are at best only extending the time that option is open to then, while materially increasing the amount of damage they can do if they do attack.

This policy of South Korea, then the USA, then the UN feeding North Korea has allowed them to shift the threat from a million starving men largely equipped with sixties weaponry to a million sufficiently fed men largely equipped with sixties weaponry backed by a dozen or so nukes. As if this doesn't sufficiently reveal this as a stupid policy, we're doubling down as they build up their capacity to produce fissile material. Obama and Lee, like Bush and Roh before them, are merely trying to bribe the Gargoyle sufficiently to pass the problem along to their successor, but the result is that the problem grows bigger as time goes by. At some point North Korea will judge itself sufficiently protected by nuclear weapons that the USA will be afraid to escalate, at which time they will be able to invade the South in a one-on-one fight. I'm still betting on South Korea, but the conflict will likely be orders of magnitude worse.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
55,355
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How the hell do you figure that? We send food aid = we feed the military = North Koreans are free to build weapons = those not needed to build weapons starve anyway.

We don't send food aid? Either North Koreans starve to death and (since dead men build no nukes) cannot build as many weapons OR North Korea is forced to shift more people from building weapons to producing food and therefore cannot build as many weapons OR North Korea is forced to shift more people from building weapons to producing goods that can be exchanged for food and therefore cannot build as many weapons. Any way you cut it, the outside world feeding North Korea means North Korea has more weapons. You may put off North Korea attacking South Korea out of desperation and stupidity, but you are at best only extending the time that option is open to then, while materially increasing the amount of damage they can do if they do attack.

This policy of South Korea, then the USA, then the UN feeding North Korea has allowed them to shift the threat from a million starving men largely equipped with sixties weaponry to a million sufficiently fed men largely equipped with sixties weaponry backed by a dozen or so nukes. As if this doesn't sufficiently reveal this as a stupid policy, we're doubling down as they build up their capacity to produce fissile material. Obama and Lee, like Bush and Roh before them, are merely trying to bribe the Gargoyle sufficiently to pass the problem along to their successor, but the result is that the problem grows bigger as time goes by. At some point North Korea will judge itself sufficiently protected by nuclear weapons that the USA will be afraid to escalate, at which time they will be able to invade the South in a one-on-one fight. I'm still betting on South Korea, but the conflict will likely be orders of magnitude worse.

On what information are you forming the opinion that US food aid is what enabled North Korea to build nuclear weapons? (I already know you're full of shit, but I want to see what rope you bring to hang yourself with)

The idea that North Korea is working towards an invasion of South Korea is hilarious in its fundamental ignorance of the situation.
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
Whether we give N. Korea aid or not is depended on who's in charge. The current S. Korean administration thinks it has been a waste of time giving food and fuel to N. Korea. The next administration might not think the same. The U.S is the same way. Mean while, The Kim Dynasty in N. Korea has learned that being a quiet, peaceful neighbor is not a best way to get attention.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
How the hell do you figure that? We send food aid = we feed the military = North Koreans are free to build weapons = those not needed to build weapons starve anyway.

We don't send food aid? Either North Koreans starve to death and (since dead men build no nukes) cannot build as many weapons OR North Korea is forced to shift more people from building weapons to producing food and therefore cannot build as many weapons OR North Korea is forced to shift more people from building weapons to producing goods that can be exchanged for food and therefore cannot build as many weapons. Any way you cut it, the outside world feeding North Korea means North Korea has more weapons.
You may put off North Korea attacking South Korea out of desperation and stupidity, but you are at best only extending the time that option is open to then, while materially increasing the amount of damage they can do if they do attack.

This policy of South Korea, then the USA, then the UN feeding North Korea has allowed them to shift the threat from a million starving men largely equipped with sixties weaponry to a million sufficiently fed men largely equipped with sixties weaponry backed by a dozen or so nukes. As if this doesn't sufficiently reveal this as a stupid policy, we're doubling down as they build up their capacity to produce fissile material. Obama and Lee, like Bush and Roh before them, are merely trying to bribe the Gargoyle sufficiently to pass the problem along to their successor, but the result is that the problem grows bigger as time goes by. At some point North Korea will judge itself sufficiently protected by nuclear weapons that the USA will be afraid to escalate, at which time they will be able to invade the South in a one-on-one fight. I'm still betting on South Korea, but the conflict will likely be orders of magnitude worse.

On what information are you forming the opinion that US food aid is what enabled North Korea to build nuclear weapons? (I already know you're full of shit, but I want to see what rope you bring to hang yourself with)

The idea that North Korea is working towards an invasion of South Korea is hilarious in its fundamental ignorance of the situation.
Our food aid did not enable North Korea to build nuclear weapons, but it made it more practical and less painful.

You could at least ASK someone to explain my post to you before you respond. The answer to every foreign policy problem is not a binary choice between invade and subsidize.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Whether we give N. Korea aid or not is depended on who's in charge. The current S. Korean administration thinks it has been a waste of time giving food and fuel to N. Korea. The next administration might not think the same. The U.S is the same way. Mean while, The Kim Dynasty in N. Korea has learned that being a quiet, peaceful neighbor is not a best way to get attention.

I'd say the dynasty has also learned that killing South Koreans means a new round of talks which will culminate in a deal giving him free stuff to support his regime in return for promises everyone agrees are worthless.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
55,355
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Our food aid did not enable North Korea to build nuclear weapons, but it made it more practical and less painful.

You could at least ASK someone to explain my post to you before you respond. The answer to every foreign policy problem is not a binary choice between invade and subsidize.

No shit, that foreign policy choices are complicated is what I've been trying to teach you idiots for pages and pages now.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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No shit, that foreign policy choices are complicated is what I've been trying to teach you idiots for pages and pages now.

And yet you have only one response for North Korea - pay them their protection money. That wasn't a bad policy before they began building nukes; it's insane now. However, even if they must be bought off every time they murder a few people - that is South Korea's job, NOT America's.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
55,355
136
And yet you have only one response for North Korea - pay them their protection money. That wasn't a bad policy before they began building nukes; it's insane now. However, even if they must be bought off every time they murder a few people - that is South Korea's job, NOT America's.

I am open to any position, so long as it is more effective than the one we are doing now. So far all that has been offered are previously tried and failed positions that we abandoned in the past due to ineffectiveness.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
We take out Kim Jong-Il like we Saddam!!!! YEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH

Let's bitch about deficits, while asking for lower taxes and more wars!

who is saying to let Americans foot the bill or put the soldiers on the ground? I'm advocating putting pressure on the region to deal with the NK issue. In fact we should be putting a lot of pressure on SK to face the facts that NK doesn't want anything to do with their life style or who they are besides to destroy and enslave them. That way we can get them to actually want to do something. We can have some 5 seated table discussions, the same 5 that bring in NK for talks and formulate a plan of action to take out NK. They are a net drain on the region and in the long term leaving them be and perpetuating the status quo is going to do nothing but hurt the world as a whole.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
I am open to any position, so long as it is more effective than the one we are doing now. So far all that has been offered are previously tried and failed positions that we abandoned in the past due to ineffectiveness.

It has been 50+ years and North Korea has no plans of changing the way they do things. We've negotiated as a group, 6 seat table talks, we have gone the appeasement route to no effect. They continue to do what they do and we(the world) continually fund their military growth. If you think they can do some damage now, what about 5 years from now after another 5 years of paying protection money? Seoul will be the least of S.Korea and the worlds worries. Some people can't be reasoned with without a gun in their mouth and a finger on the trigger. Sucks, but it's the truth.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
55,355
136
It has been 50+ years and North Korea has no plans of changing the way they do things. We've negotiated as a group, 6 seat table talks, we have gone the appeasement route to no effect. They continue to do what they do and we(the world) continually fund their military growth. If you think they can do some damage now, what about 5 years from now after another 5 years of paying protection money? Seoul will be the least of S.Korea and the worlds worries. Some people can't be reasoned with without a gun in their mouth and a finger on the trigger. Sucks, but it's the truth.

How will things be different in 5 years?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Okay, so how does our security calculation change if they go from 20 nukes to 30?

Seriously? He can fire off ten and have exactly the same deterrent against retaliation as today, not to mention fire off them all and do fifty percent more damage.

I can seriously see you in five years saying "Hey, he fired off ten nukes, but he still has twenty more! We have to pay him whatever he wants or it'll be TWICE as bad!"
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
55,355
136
Seriously? He can fire off ten and have exactly the same deterrent against retaliation as today, not to mention fire off them all and do fifty percent more damage.

I can seriously see you in five years saying "Hey, he fired off ten nukes, but he still has twenty more! We have to pay him whatever he wants or it'll be TWICE as bad!"

If you think he could fire off 10 nukes and then sit back on his deterrent, you're really really dumb. The reaction from the world whether he fires one nuke or 30 is the same, he will be annihilated. The likelihood of him taking that action and the scope of our response is identical regardless of how many nukes he has. I guess he could do more damage with more nukes, but the game theory calculations change very little.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
If you think he could fire off 10 nukes and then sit back on his deterrent, you're really really dumb. The reaction from the world whether he fires one nuke or 30 is the same, he will be annihilated. The likelihood of him taking that action and the scope of our response is identical regardless of how many nukes he has. I guess he could do more damage with more nukes, but the game theory calculations change very little.

Why not? He can sink a warship and the only answer is pay the man. He can shell an island and the only answer is pay the man. I can accept that you can conceive of a line, somewhere, that North Korea could cross and you'd theoretically agree that subsidizing him is not a good idea, but subsidizing him allows North Korea to move that line back. Maybe it's not using ten nukes and holding twenty, maybe he can only use one or two and hold thirty; if he nukes, say, Hyangsan but immediately declares he has thirty or forty more nukes aimed at Seoul and Tokyo and every major city in South Korea and Japan, are you really going to flip and say okay, now he's gone to far? If so, is it just nuclear weapons? Is there also some magical number of people he can kill in a given period that would make you withdraw your support?

Either way, subsidizing him certainly allows him to become more powerful, more quickly.
 
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