Uganda Debates Death Penalty for Gays

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,249
55,799
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I never said liberals* support it, I said they could give two shits about it when islamic countries do it. Pretty much like everything shameful in islam, the left wing response is "but but christians/republicans!"...or "yah all religions are bad islam is no worse than any other"...

Couple of examples:
Iran? Thread ignored by pretty much every common posting leftie/partisan dem in the forum


Iran? No this thread is about christians!

*Again I abuse the word liberal, and hate to do that. I replace it with lefties/partisan dems.

Are we pulling out the old 'if you didn't specifically comment on this thread then you're guilty' crap that we tried to pull before here? It's no less ridiculous this time than last time.

Secondly I fail to see how condemning Christians for also advocating the deaths of gay people would have even the slightest bearing on if Islamic people were okay for performing the same evil deed. How condemnation of an act when one group does it would serve as implicit acceptance of that act by a different group is pretty mind boggling.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
If is funny to see the liberals come out of the wood work and try and take the moral high ground while throwing unborn babies and the elderly under the bus.

Well, they DO give good traction . . . And think of the health care dollars saved!
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
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Your use of slang to mock my saying LIBERAL shows your immaturity in being able to debate a subject. A post comes up about Muslims and the LIBERALS say we shouldn't judge them and condemn them just because of their religion or culture. Facts are, Muslim nations practice Sharia Law which advocates stoning, cutting out tounges, chopping off hands and feet and whipping. Even if the person is the VICTIM of a crime like rape.
You can't pick and choose what portions of a culture you say we should embrace and which we shouldn't. The CULTURE as a whole embraces what we see as good and bad and you have to evaluate the WHOLE culture based on it's totality because that is what defines the culture. Advocating tolerance of Muslim nations (culture) is advocating a culture that murders people and mutilates people. A true Muslim would embrace Sharia Law as it is what The Prophet Mohammad and the Koran require to be a faithful Muslim.


Nah, I'm afraid that other guy is right to call you on strawmannery here. You are confusing liberals making statements about respecting and tolerating other cultures in general, and possibly statements about not condemning all Muslims as terrorists just because a small percentage are terrorists, with libs specifically condoning clear human rights abuses in Islamic countries. I suppose there may be a lib or two out there who has done this, but I have personally never seen it. Not that libs can't be hypocrits. They can. I'm just not aware of it on this issue. I'm afraid you're going to have to provide concrete examples before you can substantiate your charge of hypocrisy on this one.

I don't buy your all or nothing argument either. One can, in general, advocate that we should respect all cultures and not condemn them just because they are different from our own, while recognizing that there are outer boundaries based on core beliefs about human rights that should never be crossed regardless of culture. Tolerance is not an on/off switch. It can exist to varying degrees. I might tolerate the fact that you listen to music that I think is horrid, but I may condemn you for stealing my stereo. I don't see any incompatibility here.

- wolf
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Sure, liberals on average believe that moral relativism comes into play somewhat, but overall I think that most 'liberals' here in the US do see that as having limits. There are some universal moral imperatives that shouldn't change between cultures.

Moral relatavism is a phrase used by righties to ignorantly attack others and wronglyt think libeals are lacking morals. I've seen many say 'without religious doctrine there is no basis for any morals'.

They should drop the term since they don't much understand it and IMO use 'moral absolutism' mainly to defend their own wrongful behavior like gay bigotry.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
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Are we pulling out the old 'if you didn't specifically comment on this thread then you're guilty' crap that we tried to pull before here? It's no less ridiculous this time than last time.

Secondly I fail to see how condemning Christians for also advocating the deaths of gay people would have even the slightest bearing on if Islamic people were okay for performing the same evil deed. How condemnation of an act when one group does it would serve as implicit acceptance of that act by a different group is pretty mind boggling.
Ignore or divert. SOP for hacks, and very telling, whether you want to admit it or not. Of course, you're likely the biggest Obama/democrat apologist on the board, so not sure why I'm telling you this.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Thank goodness our own radical right-wing evangelicals are are not like that.


You know, I'd really like to see what death penalty legislation has been proposed for homosexuality in the US.

Oddly enough there are people who object to things without being bloodthirsty murderers.

Strange but true.

Uganda is simply sick, but using them as a comparison to say, NY rejecting gay marriage is at best specious. Living here, I have yet to see or hear of a hanging. Perhaps we need a good Lynching now and again, but I would reserve that for our state politicians :D
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
This is pretty fucking terrible. But Craig234 you are absolutely retarded to compare the murder of homosexuals to banning homosexual marriage.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
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Reminds me of a more extreme version of the Soviet Union days. I wonder if Uganda's secret police has pink lists?

http://www.savanne.ch/tusovka/en/pilot/homosexuality-russia.html
During the time of the Soviet Union there were two decisive repressive measures of the State against homosexuals: the notorious article 121.1 which punished myzhelozhestvo (a man lying with another man) with up to five years of imprisonment
Repealed around the time of the fall of the Soviet Union.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,249
55,799
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Ignore or divert. SOP for hacks, and very telling, whether you want to admit it or not. Of course, you're likely the biggest Obama/democrat apologist on the board, so not sure why I'm telling you this.

You're the one who is trying to say that someone saying 'Christians do this awful thing too' somehow translates into 'it's okay for Islam to do this awful thing'. That's really getting into 2+2=5 territory.

Don't blame me for your failings, attacking me won't make you any less wrong.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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This is pretty fucking terrible. But Craig234 you are absolutely retarded to compare the murder of homosexuals to banning homosexual marriage.

No, you are an idiot to not understand the difference between saying it's the same tpe of bigotry behind both and saying the harm is the same for both. Your lack of reading comprehension is your error.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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No, you are an idiot to not understand the difference between saying it's the same tpe of bigotry behind both and saying the harm is the same for both. Your lack of reading comprehension is your error.

not really the same type of bigotry. they are both bigotry, but they aren't the same.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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not really the same type of bigotry. they are both bigotry, but they aren't the same.

Uganda has a colorful history. Consider that Jolly Old Elf, Idi Amin who had the nasty habit of eating his political enemies on occasion. Now I have absolutely no respect for the prior administration, but saying that people who have reservations about gay marriage are qualitatively the same as people who would kill them is like saying that Bush was a latent cannibal.

It doesn't really make for a convincing argument.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
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Uganda has a colorful history. Consider that Jolly Old Elf, Idi Amin who had the nasty habit of eating his political enemies on occasion. Now I have absolutely no respect for the prior administration, but saying that people who have reservations about gay marriage are qualitatively the same as people who would kill them is like saying that Bush was a latent cannibal.

It doesn't really make for a convincing argument.

exactly, there are varying degrees of douche bags, just because they're douche bags doesn't make them equal.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
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Keep it classy Africa.
____________________

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579743,00.html?test=latestnews

KAMPALA, Uganda —

Proposed legislation would impose the death penalty for some gay Ugandans, and their family and friends could face up to seven years in jail if they fail to report them to authorities. Even landlords could be imprisoned for renting to homosexuals.


Gay rights activists say the bill, which has prompted growing international opposition, promotes hatred and could set back efforts to combat HIV/AIDS. They believe the bill is part of a continentwide backlash because Africa's gay community is becoming more vocal.

"It's a question of visibility," said David Cato, who became an activist after he was beaten up four times, arrested twice, fired from his teaching job and outed in the press because he is gay. "When we come out and ask for our rights, they pass laws against us."

The legislation has drawn global attention from activists across the spectrum of views on gay issues. The measure was proposed in Uganda following a visit by leaders of U.S. conservative Christian ministries that promote therapy for gays to become heterosexual. However, at least one of those leaders has denounced the bill, as have some other conservative and liberal Christians in the United States.

Gay rights activists say the legislation is likely to pass. But the bill is still being debated and could undergo changes before a vote, which has not yet been set.

The Ugandan legislation in its current form would mandate a death sentence for active homosexuals living with HIV or in cases of same-sex rape. "Serial offenders" also could face capital punishment, but the legislation does not define the term. Anyone convicted of a homosexual act faces life imprisonment.

Anyone who "aids, abets, counsels or procures another to engage of acts of homosexuality" faces seven years in prison if convicted. Landlords who rent rooms or homes to homosexuals also could get seven years and anyone with "religious, political, economic or social authority" who fails to report anyone violating the act faces three years.

Gay rights activists abroad are focusing on the legislation. A protest against the bill is planned for Thursday in London; protests were held last month in New York and Washington.

David Bahati, the legislator sponsoring the bill, said he was encouraging "constructive criticism" to improve the law, but insisted strict measures were necessary to stop homosexuals from "recruiting" schoolchildren.

"The youths in secondary schools copy everything from the Western world and America," said high school teacher David Kisambira. "A good number of students have been converted into gays. We hear there are groups of people given money by some gay organizations in developed countries to recruit youth into gay activities."

Uganda's ethics minister, James Nsaba Buturo, said the death sentence clause would probably be reviewed but maintained the law was necessary to counter foreign influence. He said homosexuality "is not natural in Uganda," a view echoed by some Ugandans.

"I feel that the bill is good and necessary, but I don't think gays should be killed. They should be imprisoned for about a year and warned never to do it again. The family is in danger in Uganda because the rate at which vice is spreading is appalling," said shopkeeper John Muwanguzi.

Uganda is not the only country considering anti-gay laws. Nigeria, where homosexuality is already punishable by imprisonment or death, is considering strengthening penalties for activities deemed to promote it. Burundi just banned same-sex relationships and Rwanda is considering it.

Homophobia is rife even in more tolerant African countries.

In Kenya, homosexuality is illegal but the government has acknowledged its existence by launching a sexual orientation survey to improve health care. Nevertheless, the recent marriage of two Kenyan men in London caused outrage. The men's families in Kenya were harassed by reporters and villagers.

In South Africa, the only African nation to recognize gay marriage, gangs carry out so-called "corrective" rapes on lesbians. A 19-year-old lesbian athlete was gang-raped, tortured and murdered in 2008.

Debate over the Ugandan bill follows a conference in the capital Kampala earlier this year attended by American activists who consider same-gender relationships sinful, and believe gays and lesbians can become heterosexual through prayer and counseling. Author Don Schmierer and "sexual reorientation coach" Caleb Lee Brundidge took part; they did not respond to interview requests.

A third American who took part in the conference in Uganda, Scott Lively, said the bill has gone too far.

"I agree with the general goal but this law is far too harsh," said Lively, a California-based preacher and author of "The Pink Swastika" and other books that advise parents how to "recruit-proof" their children from gays.

"Society should actively discourage all sex outside of marriage and that includes homosexuality ... The family is under threat," he said. Gay people "should not be parading around the streets," he added.

Frank Mugisha, a gay Ugandan human rights activist, said the bill was so poorly worded that someone could be imprisoned for giving a hug.

"This bill is promoting hatred," he said. "We're turning Uganda into a police state. It will drive people to suicide."

Buturo played down the influence of foreign evangelicals, saying the proposed legislation was an expression of popular outrage against "repugnant" practices. But activists like Cato argue anti-gay attitudes are a foreign import.

"In the beginning, when the missionaries brought religion, they said they were bringing love," he said. "Instead they brought hate, through homophobia."

Susan Timberlake, a senior adviser on human rights and law from UNAIDS, said such laws could hinder the fight against HIV/AIDS by driving people further underground. And activists also worry that the legislation could be used to blackmail or silence government critics.

Cato said he thinks the Ugandan bill will pass, perhaps in an altered form.

"It's such a setback. But I hope we can overcome it," he said. "I cannot believe this is happening in the 21st century."
It's a bad dream.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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350
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not really the same type of bigotry. they are both bigotry, but they aren't the same.

Yes, they are. There are just different cultural norms. Today slavery is way outside the boundary of what's acceptable; it didn't used to be.

Putting ays in prison for gay sex isn't all that different in the thought process behind doing it that executing them, and we had states with laws on the books for imprisonig gays until 2003.

I see that you just can't differentiate between the natue of the bigotry and the specific way it's expressed, the harshness of the discrimination, so we're pobably done going in circles on it.

A bigot looking at a gay and saying 'execute him', saying 'imprison him', saying 'discriminate against him in employment', saying 'deny him equal marital rights', saying 'make him wear a pink armband', sayig it's something for his family to be ashamed of, and countless other examples vary greatly in the degree of harm, but not in the bigotry behind them.

Go look at the photos of white mobs of everyday suburban men and women out at the old Southern riots in the 60's their faces seething in hate to protest the admission of blacks into their local collete, and you will see what a short jump it is as cultural norms shift. It was a short jump before that as thousands of blacks were lynched in the earlier part of the century, even after theorietically achieving full freedom/voting rights.

For how many decades did White America not only accept but embrade covenants in real estate to keep blacks who had the money to move into a white neighborhood from doing so, that's 'abhorrant' today?

Whether slavery or lynching or college or sitting anywhere on a bus, the harm is very different but the mentality and bigotry are the same, just different cultural norms.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
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Craig,

People have to be educated, one by one. I used to be disgusted by gays, but I now understand.

There is no magic switch, but hard work and education.

What IS unexceptable is shit like these foreign cultures do.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Uganda has a colorful history. Consider that Jolly Old Elf, Idi Amin who had the nasty habit of eating his political enemies on occasion. Now I have absolutely no respect for the prior administration, but saying that people who have reservations about gay marriage are qualitatively the same as people who would kill them is like saying that Bush was a latent cannibal.

It doesn't really make for a convincing argument.

I didn't say they're the same. I said the bigoty is the same type of bigotry, just expressed differently based on different cultural norms, just as in my other post I showed how our norms changed over time.

Note that the bill has removed the harshest things, down to limited prison terms, making it a lot closer to the laws in some of our right-wing states just seven years ago.

Your not finding it convincing is your problem, not the post's, but you are not too convincing when you generalize what all Ugandans are like based on one crazy dictator.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Craig,

People have to be educated, one by one. I used to be disgusted by gays, but I now understand.

There is no magic switch, but hard work and education.

What IS unexceptable is shit like these foreign cultures do.

I agree with your post up to the last sentence, which I'm not quite sure what to make of. I find the bigotry of Ugandan prison terms, of Texan prison terms in 2002, or marriage discrimination all unacceptable.

While not saying they're 'equal' in the impact.

I allways tell people feelinjg a revulsion about homosexuality is 'ok', I've felt it, what matters is understanding the nature of homosexuality and why it's not ok at all to discriminate against people based on the reaction.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Yes, they are. There are just different cultural norms. Today slavery is way outside the boundary of what's acceptable; it didn't used to be.

Putting ays in prison for gay sex isn't all that different in the thought process behind doing it that executing them, and we had states with laws on the books for imprisonig gays until 2003.

I see that you just can't differentiate between the natue of the bigotry and the specific way it's expressed, the harshness of the discrimination, so we're pobably done going in circles on it.

A bigot looking at a gay and saying 'execute him', saying 'imprison him', saying 'discriminate against him in employment', saying 'deny him equal marital rights', saying 'make him wear a pink armband', sayig it's something for his family to be ashamed of, and countless other examples vary greatly in the degree of harm, but not in the bigotry behind them.

Go look at the photos of white mobs of everyday suburban men and women out at the old Southern riots in the 60's their faces seething in hate to protest the admission of blacks into their local collete, and you will see what a short jump it is as cultural norms shift. It was a short jump before that as thousands of blacks were lynched in the earlier part of the century, even after theorietically achieving full freedom/voting rights.

For how many decades did White America not only accept but embrade covenants in real estate to keep blacks who had the money to move into a white neighborhood from doing so, that's 'abhorrant' today?

Whether slavery or lynching or college or sitting anywhere on a bus, the harm is very different but the mentality and bigotry are the same, just different cultural norms.

This is equivalent to saying that those who want socialized medicine really want a Stalinist dictatorship.

One wants the government to step in and fix health care.
Then it can tackle other items some see as unfair.
Bias and bigotry are wrong.
Government can step in and correct wrong thinking.
Then it can make us more efficient by allocating resources.
Then it can remove the inferior from adversely effecting the political process.
Since that government is superior, it needs to stay in power for the good of the people.
For that to happen we need stability in leadership. We then have no need of elections, being guided by those who are "progressive" in their thinking. Nirvana.
That means we need to surrender our individual preferences for the good of all.
That means our leaders have the moral authority to make us do as they will.
That means dictatorship.

Why do you want to enslave us?

Really, you can't get into someone's head and tell them what they are thinking because you don't agree with them. They have differing views, and that makes them closet murderers?

It's not going to fly in serious discussions.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
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My last sentence was intended at damning a court (Uganda)that would attack gays.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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350
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He's attacking Idi Amin, not the people, Craig.

I read it as his making generaliztions about Ugandans today, in light of the proposed 'kill gays' bill, by saying Ugandan culture is represented by Idi Amin. What other relevance does Idi Amin have to the discvussion?
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
It's an African State...

Idi Amin is one of the first things that comes to my mind...

-John
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
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The whole pathos of this thread stays the same...

that some people are attacked, by states, or people, for being themselves.

-John