TXAA Anti-Aliasing Makes Its Debut In Latest Update For The Secret World

[MrK6]

Because of the temporal aliasing?

Higher levels of MSAA have been dealing with temporal aliasing fine for over a decade. Add in something like AMD's Edge-detect and you're golden.

How do you like them apples

Without downloading any of the videos and just looking at the screen shots, it's easy to see how horrid any form of TXAA (even hybrid) looks compared to plain old MSAA. Viewing the videos doesn't reverse that. Honestly, you'd be better off just running a lower resolution and upscaling for zero performance hit; TXAA in its current form is not an acceptable solution for games.

 

[f1sherman]

Higher levels of MSAA have been dealing with temporal aliasing fine for over a decade. Add in something like AMD's Edge-detect and you're golden.

I read about SI blurring the image, but until now I had no idea it's enough to get rid of temporal aliasing

How about shader/transparency aliasing? Gets rid of it completely?

Without downloading any of the videos and just looking at the screen shots, it's easy to see how horrid any form of TXAA (even hybrid) looks compared to plain old MSAA. Viewing the videos doesn't reverse that. Honestly, you'd be better off just running a lower resolution and upscaling for zero performance hit; TXAA in its current form is not an acceptable solution for games.

Not acceptable? Communist China much?

TXAA + low-level-downsampling is a VERY viable alternative to higher-level supersampling, both IQ and perf.hit wise.

 

[Grooveriding]

Not sure what we're supposed to see here ?

I'm seeing exactly what most of us are saying in this thread; any use of TXAA is anywhere from fairly blurry to exceedingly blurry compared to proper MSAA...

I don't think I need to label which picture is which

 

[f1sherman]

Agreed.
My head already hurts from the flicker-fest I can see on the 2nd.

But since we're discussing here, it would be nice if you folks would try to understaind few issues around AA:

(From TL blog)

• Anti-aliasing is always a trade off with sharpness, even when done correctly by super-sampling and a proper down-sampling filter.
  
  [*]There is a direct trade off between sharpness and temporal aliasing.
  

 

[MrK6]

I read about SI blurring the image, but until now I had no idea it's enough to get rid of temporal aliasing

How about shader/transparency aliasing? Gets rid of it completely?

We're talking about AA, not AF, there's a (big) difference. I'm not sure you should be in this discussion if you don't understand the difference between the two.

Not acceptable? Communist China much?

TXAA + low-level-downsampling is a VERY viable alternative to higher-level supersampling, both IQ and perf.hit wise.

Considering you're resorting to hyperbole and have no valid argument, I take that as you have nothing to offer. Thanks for playing.

Not sure what we're supposed to see here ?

I'm seeing exactly what most of us are saying in this thread; any use of TXAA is anywhere from fairly blurry to exceedingly blurry compared to proper MSAA...

I don't think I need to label which picture is which

Bingo.

 

[chimaxi83]

Not sure what we're supposed to see here ?

I'm seeing exactly what most of us are saying in this thread; any use of TXAA is anywhere from fairly blurry to exceedingly blurry compared to proper MSAA...

I don't think I need to label which picture is which

Exactly. I don't understand the need to defend the fact that you can clearly and obviously see the blur fest. OK, it helps out with temporal aliasing, but the image quality cost just isn't enough to justify the "benefit" of TXAA in its current form. The die hard green team needs to defend this, I get their need, rolleyes but come on... Progress is good, but talk to me when progress = temporal anti aliasing without the cost of quality. Those blurry ass screen shots make my head hurt.

 

[Final8ty]

Man! the blur is shocking and its no surprise that you cant see temporal aliasing when the image is so blurry.

 

[f1sherman]

Considering you're resorting to hyperbole and have no valid argument, I take that as you have nothing to offer. Thanks for playing.

When one says:

Higher levels of MSAA have been dealing with temporal aliasing fine for over a decade. Add in something like AMD's Edge-detect and you're golden.

he either doesn't even know what are the issues at hand, or is purposely trolling.

So yeah in either case, ty for playing.

 

[SirPauly]

How do you like them apples

It's wonderful to see potential improvements with TXAA.

 

[MrK6]

When one says:

he either doesn't even know what are the issues at hand, or is purposely trolling.

So yeah in either case, ty for playing.

Sorry, but you have to come up with an actual argument to counter mine. So far all you've done is parrot press releases. When Timothy Lottes himself says:

One of the advantages of having an image with very little aliasing, is that re-sampling works well (as it does with a DVD or BluRay movie). In this example the frame is getting enlarged by a factor of 1.8x in area. This option could enable the game to run at a higher frame rate for better input latency without resulting in bad aliasing but at the cost of decreased sharpness. With possible "retina" displays moving to desktop, eventually there will be a need to up-sample to have enough perf/pixel at an acceptable frame rate.

He either doesn't have clue about IQ or is purposefully ignoring the obvious to sell his "product."

 

[f1sherman]

Argument is there is no such thing as "best AA", "best IQ", "do this and you're golden".
Everything depends on goals, personal taste, platform, engine, etc.

TXAA has a unique set of goals, that no other AA deals with.

Argument is that you can't have perfect sharpness and no shimmering.
Try sliding LOD bias to negative, and see for yourself.
You will be increasing both sharpness AND temporal AA/shimmering.

 

[MrK6]

Argument is there is no such thing as "best AA", "best IQ", "do this and you're golden".
Everything depends on goals, personal taste, platform, engine, etc.

TXAA has a unique set of goals, that no other AA deals with.

Argument is that you can't have perfect sharpness and no shimmering.
Try sliding LOD bias to negative, and see for yourself.
You will be increasing both sharpness AND temporal AA/shimmering.

Here's a fun fact, your eyes see with temporal aliasing (ever watch a plane propeller start?). TXAA has created a "problem" that it "fixes" which wasn't a problem in the first place. It's a stretching attempt to port a film technique to gaming when they're very different media. If you want to cling to "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" as a dying stance, go for it, no one is going to argue against that. However, you haven't changed the mind of any reasonable person reading this thread.

 

[f1sherman]

Here's a fun fact, your eyes see with temporal aliasing (ever watch a plane propeller start?). TXAA has created a "problem" that it "fixes" which wasn't a problem in the first place. It's a stretching attempt to port a film technique to gaming when they're very different media. If you want to cling to "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" as a dying stance, go for it, no one is going to argue against that. However, you haven't changed the mind of any reasonable person reading this thread.

You are claiming that because of the imperfection of an eye,
which is visible under special circumstances IRL, and does not look artifact-like at all,

because of THAT I should accept shimmering garbage in computer graphics?

If you want to cling to "sharpness is the beauty", may I suggest setting LOD bias as low as possible and never bother yourself with anything except MSAA.

Also, if you think that temporal aliasing is problem created by Timothy Lottes, why didn't you say that right away?
WTH are doing here arguing; just say SCAM! and be done with it.

BTW... starting the sentence with Here's a fun fact followed by the "fact" from the very first Wikipedia article, that your Google search stumbled upon does not make you look like you own the issue

 

[MrK6]

You are claiming that because of the imperfection of an eye,
which is visible under special circumstances IRL, and does not look artifact-like at all,

because of THAT I should accept shimmering garbage in computer graphics?

If you want to cling to "sharpness is the beauty", may I suggest setting LOD bias as low as possible and never bother yourself with anything except MSAA.

Also, if you think that temporal aliasing is problem created by Timothy Lottes, why didn't you say that right away?
WTH are doing here arguing; just say SCAM! and be done with it.

Again, all hyperbole. Why don't you just admit that you came here to spout propaganda for NVIDIA or whoever, really don't understand the concepts at hand, and are in way over your head? No dignity at all it seems.

BTW... starting the sentence with Here's a fun fact followed by the "fact" from the very first Wikipedia article, that your Google search stumbled upon does not make you look like you own the issue

Actually, it just shows that you had to Google temporal aliasing to fact check me, so it seems like you don't understand the concept. Nice work outing your ignorance further though :thumbsup:.

 

[RussianSensation]

Not sure what we're supposed to see here ?

:thumbsup: Big props for those 2 screenshots. If someone blindly asked me which is which, I'd say the top is from a PS3 game and the bottom is from a PC game. I am all for new anti-aliasing modes, no matter how much they hammer the GPU. I value image quality over performance for the most part. Having said that, TXAA/MLAA/FXAA sound like cop-outs meant for consoles and a short-term solution to deferred rendering engines. AMD have already shown in the Leo Saves the Day Demo that it's possible to have a global illumination model using DirectCompute in a forward rendering engine, under which the use of MSAA does not result in a large performance hit we find under deferred MSAA usage.

"The Leo demo showcases a real-time, DirectX® 11 based lighting pipeline that is designed to allow for rendering scenes made of arbitrarily complex materials (including transparencies), multiple lighting models, and minimal restrictions on the number of lights that can be used -- all while supporting hardware MSAA and efficient memory usage. Specifically, this demo uses DirectCompute to cull and manage lights in a scene. The end result is a per-pixel or per-tile list of lights that forward-render based shaders use for lighting each pixel. This technique also allows for adding one bounce global illumination effects by spawning virtual point light sources where light strikes a surface." ~ Revival of Forward Rendering?

 

[f1sherman]

Again, all hyperbole. Why don't you just admit that you came here to spout propaganda for NVIDIA or whoever, really don't understand the concepts at hand, and are in way over your head? No dignity at all it seems.

Well did I gather anything wrong?
Why don't you address the issue itself, instead of accusing me of coming here to spout propaganda for NVIDIA .

You are the one saying that temporal aliasing wasn't a problem in the first place
because of the propeller spining IRL

Man... that's just silly
And WTH are you doing in thread dealing with non-existent problem?

Actually, it just shows that you had to Google temporal aliasing to fact check me, so it seems like you don't understand the concept. Nice work outing your ignorance further though :thumbsup:.

HAHAHA actually NO!
What I had been looking for was "temporal aliasing" gif as a demonstration image, but couldn't help noticing your "Here's a funny fact" right on your 1st Google hit Wiki article. :thumbsup:

 

[railven]

Not sure what we're supposed to see here ?

I'm seeing exactly what most of us are saying in this thread; any use of TXAA is anywhere from fairly blurry to exceedingly blurry compared to proper MSAA...

I don't think I need to label which picture is which

Mother of God, please tell me the top is not the future of PC gaming in terms of stillness.

I'll be signing up for the TSW free trial, and I have a GTX 680. I look forward to seeing this in action since it seems stills just make me want to throw up in my mouth.

For those running lower hardware, Blur-o-vision seems to be the future. So it fixes crawlies? With that much blur - I'd hope so.

 

[railven]

How do you like them apples

Woof, some of those images are disturbing. How can anyone want that level of blur? It got to the point where my GF (the nVidia fangirl) noticed you can't even see the lines in the brick walls in the back anymore.

2xTXAA looked like 4xMSAA in terms of jaggies on the canopy, but holy crap was the image smeared with FXAA + MLAA + SMAA all over it.

Motion must be some kind of ace since people are actively defending this blurcastrophe.

 

[f1sherman]

@MrK6 your time is up.
Now I am going to use for the very 1st time, a certain Forum-Control-Panel functionality.

Thanks for playing.

Ditto


@chimaxi83

I said already that I'm not happy with the blurring, but if you investigate the issue a bit, you will see that there is no perfect solution.
Avoiding sharpness/aliasing connection all together is mathematically impossible.

Personally for me downsampling is one of preferred AA methods, and TXAA looks like a perfect method to pair with.

@railven

download 2.5xOGSSAA+2xTXAA and compare with 4xMSAA movie

 

[Silverforce11]

If you're so freaked out by temporal aliasing, just punch yourself in the eyes til its swollen before you play games, that way everything looks blurry and you won't notice it.

For the rest of the sane ppl, let us enjoy our MSAA without being shoveled inferior AA modes that turn our crisp high res textures and filtering into crap console fest.

 

[boxleitnerb]

If you use 2.25xOGSSAA (1.5x1.5), the performance hit is so large that you can just jump to SGSSAA instead. I like OGSSAA aka downsampling where all else fails, but I'll take SGSSAA over it any day of the week.

 

[SirPauly]

However, you haven't changed the mind of any reasonable person reading this thread.

A reasonable person would at least investigate in motion fairly as well before coming to an over-all conclusion. The point of the feature was movement after all.

 

[Arkadrel]

Not sure what we're supposed to see here ?

I'm seeing exactly what most of us are saying in this thread; any use of TXAA is anywhere from fairly blurry to exceedingly blurry compared to proper MSAA...

I don't think I need to label which picture is which

Holy fudge.... TXAA has Huuuuuuuuge blurring effects.
Dont think this is a viable alternative at all, if this is how much things get blurred out.


Saw some of the other pictures.... looks like TXAA kills jaggies better than FXAAHQ, but.... at what cost?
The detail LOSS is insane with TXAA. Less jaggies at the cost of makeing games look ugly? no thanks.

 

[f1sherman]

If you're so freaked out by temporal aliasing, just punch yourself in the eyes til its swollen before you play games, that way everything looks blurry and you won't notice it.

For the rest of the sane ppl, let us enjoy our MSAA without being shoveled inferior AA modes that turn our crisp high res textures and filtering into crap console fest.

You're a weird one. Coming to TXAA thread saying "lets us enjoy our MSAA"

But fear not!

That is exactly what I've already suggested you lot

If you want to cling to "sharpness is the beauty", may I suggest setting LOD bias as low as possible and never bother yourself with anything except MSAA.

 

[Lonbjerg]

People using stills to jugde TXAA are funny...but a waste of time..as they don not graps what they are looking at... *shrugs*