TXAA Anti-Aliasing Makes Its Debut In Latest Update For The Secret World

[f1sherman]

SSAA is already capable of delivering what TXAA does

No it's not.
Not in theory (temporal aliasing is not removed), and not in practice (performance penalty is huge)

without the blurring.

Again not true. Negative LOD bias is what's usually employed to sharpen the image which is otherwise softened by supersampling. A trick that Timothy said he'll explore and possibly hack into TXAA.

But enough talk.
Please, do show us some crisp SSAA images of BF3, Crysis 2, Shogun 2, Metro 2033, Sniper Elite V2.
DX11 please, so we can all laugh on both your FPS and blurry images alike :sneaky:

If SSAA is that capable of delivering with GTX 680, imagine the beauty of it with mainstream hardware like GTX 650/660.

 

[ViRGE]

I saw on Mr. Lottes' Blog that SLi scaling isn't ideal with TXAA, maybe that is the case, I don't know.

That would appear to be exactly the case. Since temporal reprojection requires the previous frame, it's not possible to move past a certain point in rendering frame n+1 until frame n is complete.

But enough talk.
Please, do show us some crisp SSAA images of BF3, Crysis 2, Shogun 2, Metro 2033, Sniper Elite V2.
DX11 please, so we can all laugh on both your FPS and blurry images alike :sneaky:

Note that half of those games don't support proper MSAA in the first place, which means that it's not possible to use SSAA on them.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Games I've tested with SGSSAA that blur:

League of Legends
Skyrim
Path of Exile
Diablo 3

Games I've tested with SGSSAA that haven't blurred:

 

[f1sherman]

That would appear to be exactly the case. Since temporal reprojection requires the previous frame, it's not possible to move past a certain point in rendering frame n+1 until frame n is complete.
Note that half of those games don't support proper MSAA in the first place, which means that it's not possible to use SSAA on them.

Plus LOD bias control is not exposed for Nvidia under DX10+

Why would exposing it require a hack, is what I would like to know.

Did AMD use some unhealthy programming practice when allowing it's SSAA control of LOD bias, and even if so - what's the big deal if it works?

 

[ViRGE]

Plus LOD bias control is not exposed for Nvidia under DX10+

Why would exposing it require a hack, is what I would like to know.

Did AMD use some unhealthy programming practice when allowing it's SSAA control of LOD bias, and even if so - what's the big deal if it works?

Actually yes, they did. I don't know what the underlying technical reason is, but it's considered to be a bad thing to have the drivers overriding the developer's intentions with LOD.:| With that said, I for one am a fan of the results.

 

[SirPauly]

Indeed! With the DirectX 10+ Lod petition at nVidia forums, nVidia may expose this in their future drivers for their customers -- no time-table mentioned but there was a positive response from Manuel.

 

[SirPauly]

SSAA is already capable of delivering what TXAA does, without the blurring.

Indeed! However, what would the performance be?

 

[Grooveriding]

more action with TXAA:

I enlarged the MSI afterburner overlay so you can view the framerate.

Performance is brutal there and the blur is ridiculous, you can even see it on the UI.

The performance is just out of whack imo. I understand the blog states that it is a bit more costly than MSAA, but that is a lot more costly. 25FPS with 680SLI....

SSAA and SGSSAA both deliver superior IQ, no blur and better performance in the games I use it in.

Hopefully TXAA can evolve, I am puzzled at why there would be even more blur/distortion than FXAA.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Performance is brutal there and the blur is ridiculous, you can even see it on the UI.

The performance is just out of whack imo. I understand the blog states that it is a bit more costly than MSAA, but that is a lot more costly. 25FPS with 680SLI....

SSAA and SGSSAA both deliver superior IQ, no blur and better performance in the games I use it in.

Hopefully TXAA can evolve, I am puzzled at why there would be even more blur/distortion than FXAA.

Couple of thoughts...

SLI doesn't look like it's working properly.

44% and 60% usage... It's not even running even, which leads me to believe SLI isn't even actually working he's getting the performance of a single card minus the performance hit from the gpus not actually working the rendering properly.

How you were unable to discern that is beyond me.

Your DX9 title has no fps indicator, and it's pretty evident you are running a very large - LoD bias.

 

[sontin]

Performance is brutal there and the blur is ridiculous, you can even see it on the UI.

The performance is just out of whack imo. I understand the blog states that it is a bit more costly than MSAA, but that is a lot more costly. 25FPS with 680SLI....

And you can say that even without an option for MSAA in Secret World.

 

[Grooveriding]

And you can say that even without an option for MSAA in Secret World.

The whole problem with Post AA modes, and now TXAA incorporating Post AA; lazy developers do not implement proper AA. Then we wind up with only options that reduce IQ/blur the image.

Low cost AA (Which TXAA has yet to prove itself to be, actually costly AA) should be an option, not the only option. Proper AA modes should still be offered. Dice had the right idea with BF3, post AA with the cost of blur or MSAA with the cost of performance but no blur.

 

[SirPauly]

Here are shots with a meager GTX 670 in the same area as Blackened:

FXAAHQ

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8950/thesecretworlddx1120120l.jpg

TXAA 2

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7104/thesecretworlddx1120120s.jpg

 

[ViRGE]

The whole problem with Post AA modes, and now TXAA incorporating Post AA; lazy developers do not implement proper AA. Then we wind up with only options that reduce IQ/blur the image.

Low cost AA (Which TXAA has yet to prove itself to be, actually costly AA) should be an option, not the only option. Proper AA modes should still be offered. Dice had the right idea with BF3, post AA with the cost of blur or MSAA with the cost of performance but no blur.

Even then, DICE didn't exactly implement MSAA correctly in BF3. The amount of stuff it doesn't touch is incredibly sad.

 

[Grooveriding]

Even then, DICE didn't exactly implement MSAA correctly in BF3. The amount of stuff it doesn't touch is incredibly sad.

No doubt, they did the same thing in BFBC2. It's particularly noticeable at a distance in BF3. I understand something like TXAA aims to solve that, but the blur sort of defeats the purpose for me.

Even in BF3 if you turn on MSAA and the Post AA filter you smooth everything, but the game becomes completely blurry at that point. I just run MSAA and deal with the distance aliasing.

4xMSAA

Post-AA

You can really notice the blur on the trees/vegetation using Post-AA. The blur also tends to be more noticeable in motion. The drawback to 4x MSAA in BF3 is if you look at a scene where there are objects in the far distance, you see noticeable aliasing. Particularly in motion. It doesn't really show up too well here, but you can see it on the radio tower edges. It's annoying. Guess it's a choice between that and blur.

I'm just noticing a lot of developers are starting to get lazy and implement post-AA out the gate. It's not a DX9/DX10/DX11 issue either, more that a lot of developers are using deferred shading/lighting and post-AA is an easy implementation so they slap it on. Diablo 3 is a good example of a game that did this. Starcraft 2 they didn't even bother with AA. In both instances AMD/Nvidia implemented driver control MSAA. It worked well in SC2, but in Diablo 3 I noticed that it was not ideal and was similar to what you see in BF3, with a lot of aliasing still apparent.

 

[Akantus]

Blackend you should try disabling SLI that GPU usage is horrid. I have read that SLI can be wonky in TSW.
(What's the point of having it show in overlay if you are not paying attention to it? )

 

[blackened23]

Of course I thought the same thing yet framerates are slightly worse still in single card mode. SLI does improve things but not much. Read through the past 2 pages, any issues with GPU usage are possibly because of the shortcomings of TXAA. Apparently, it does not scale properly with SLI.

I'll quote Virge' post here:

Since temporal reprojection requires the previous frame, it's not possible to move past a certain point in rendering frame n+1 until frame n is complete.

This could also explain microstutter during movement with TXAA, it feels like the game is skipping frames and is not smooth at all. I can play other games at 30 fps and they feel okay, but this one feels like its stuttering constantly with TXAA enabled. Its likely due to the shortcomings of SLI scaling and TXAA - I just tried TXAA with single card and the microstutter seems to be subjectively less, although the framerate is slightly lower. Shrug.

If 680 sli isn't up to the task, apparently i'll have to just use FXAA HQ. Disabling SLI doesn't help (for TXAA), either - the framerates are still low. My fps stays pinned at 60 fps at FXAA HQ with other settings maxed minus motion blur (I don't like motion blur, personal preference)

 

[Akantus]

Oh gee, you think? Of course I thought the same thing yet framerates are worse still in single card mode. SLI does improve things but not much. Read through the past 2 pages, any issues with GPU usage is because of the shortcomings of TXAA. Apparently, it does not scale properly with SLI.

I'll quote Virge' post here:



This could also explain microstutter during movement with TXAA, it feels like the game is skipping frames and is not smooth at all. I can play other games at 30 fps and they feel okay, but this one feels like its stuttering constantly with TXAA enabled. Its likely due to the shortcomings of SLI scaling and TXAA - I just tried TXAA with single card and the microstutter seems to be subjectively less, although the framerate is slightly lower. Shrug.

If 680 sli isn't up to the task, apparently i'll have to just use FXAA HQ. Disabling SLI doesn't help, either - the framerates are still low. My fps stays pinned at 60 fps at FXAA HQ with other settings maxed minus motion blur (I don't like motion blur, personal preference)

Yea but you were saying that Timothy isn't telling the truth about performance hit of TXAA, which I believe he does. The severe reduction of FPS can come from SLI (they really should put disclaimer to the option), and in single card mode from resolution you are playing at. FXAA carries almost none performance hit, so that along with SLI problems with TXAA is really your best option (even if you didn't mind the blurriness).

I hope one day (sooner better than later) there will be better option for SLI (or multicard in general) than AFR, which has it's shortcomings :\

And I'm with you on motion blur, in most games I turn that off.

 

[Akantus]

SSAA is already capable of delivering what TXAA does, without the blurring. With it I see perfect image quality in many games I play, and during movement there’s not a single pixel out of place.

Yea, but TXAA isn't meant to replace SSAA. It's more like trying to emulate SSAA without the enormous performance hit it has. But I would like to see more support for SSAA so WE can decide if WE have the power to run it or not.

 

[blackened23]

Yea but you were saying that Timothy isn't telling the truth about performance hit of TXAA, which I believe he does. The severe reduction of FPS can come from SLI (they really should put disclaimer to the option), and in single card mode from resolution you are playing at. FXAA carries almost none performance hit, so that along with SLI problems with TXAA is really your best option (even if you didn't mind the blurriness).

I hope one day (sooner better than later) there will be better option for SLI (or multicard in general) than AFR, which has it's shortcomings :\

And I'm with you on motion blur, in most games I turn that off.

SLI has better performance than single card, and the unideal scaling is likely due to the shortcomings of TXAA. I could be wrong and if I am, great. It has been documented that the SLI scaling of TXAA is not ideal - although the performance is still greater than single card. I never directly said anything regarding Timothy Lottes lying, its nice that you put words in my mouth pal. I did say this:

I don't see 2x MSAA causing anywhere NEAR the performance hit that TXAA 2x-4x causes for me in TSW. // In other words, words are cheap, nvidia needs to prove it by refining the performance of TXAA.

And that statement stands. Sorry, I expect 680 sli to be up to the task performance wise. And for that reason, I am not impressed. If that can happen anytime in the near future i'll revise my opinion, as it is now even 1080p has less than 60 fps with TXAA - I don't think thats a good tradeoff for whatever image benefit it may provide. If any of these experiences change with a future driver or future TSW build, i'm sure my opinion of TXAA will be revised.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Have you even tried TXAA or are you another GTX 460/470 user speculating? SLI has better performance than single card, and the unideal scaling is likely due to the shortcomings of TXAA. I never directly said anything regarding Timothy Lottes lying, its nice that you put words in my mouth pal. I did say this:



And that statement stands. I can see that it obviously bothers some people that i'm not posting absolutely glowing things about TXAA, sorry, I expect 680 sli to be up to the task. If that can happen anytime in the near future i'll revise my opinion, as it is now even 1080p has less than 60 fps with TXAA - I don't think thats a good tradeoff.

So you get perfect usage without TXAA in SLI but when you enable it your usage and fps tank?

I'd like to take your opinion at face value, but of course I can't.

It would be pretty easy to show No AA in SLI usage/fps, and then TXAA with SLI.

It still doesn't make sense that you'd get 60/44 usage due to TXAA thus causing your performance problems, it would make sense if you were at 99/99 and performance tanked, but right now I don't see any reason to blame TXAA for your current usage and performance issues.

 

[blackened23]

Just FYI, the game does not have a vsync option

I have to revise this statement. While the game does not have an ingame vsync option, I had adaptive vsync turned on in the nvidia control panel and stupidly didn't realize it. It does go past 60 fps.

 

[Grooveriding]

Easy solution : Borderlands 2 is out next month, if performance tanks using TXAA in that game as well, safe bet it is a performance killer.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Your opinion is that TXAA has a large performance impact but I've yet to see you produce any evidence to support that.

All I've seen is evidence of a driver issue and subsequent poor gpu usage as a platform to further bash technology he seemingly doesn't understand.

Let me help you out here.

Take Skyrim, with 8xAA you get 100 fps and 99% usage on your cards. When you enable 8x SGSSAA your FPS drop to 40 and your usage remains at 99%.

This example makes sense, SGSSAA has a large impact on fps.

In your "example" something other than TXAA is causing a large amount your performance hit, it's called 60/44 usage, lemme know bro.

 

[blackened23]

Easy solution : Borderlands 2 is out next month, if performance tanks using TXAA in that game as well, safe bet it is a performance killer.

Wait, BL2 has TXAA? Big Borderlands fan here, definitely getting BL2. Hopefully BL2 will settle this if it does indeed have a TXAA feature :thumbsup:

(Can't wait for BL2 - definitely playing Lilith if she's there again!!):thumbsup:

Your opinion is that TXAA has a large performance impact but I've yet to see you produce any evidence to support that.

This statement really is quite laughable. Perhaps you should see the stills that Sirpauly has of TXAA at 44 fps @ 1080p, and thats a still - combat performance is signifigantly lower still with TXAA. Or you can just believe what you want.

 

[SirPauly]

Something seems to be amiss because I received 44 frames in the same area as you, my setting was x2 TXAA -- granted mine was at 1080P and only one GTX 670 with everything maxed -- 52 with FXAA HQ.