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Turkey Shoots Down Russian Warplane Near Border With Syria

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norseamd said:
Actually Turkey and the KRG have good relations. Thing is Turkey can close down the Bosphorus to all Russian traffic. Might have to go look up the treaty on that one. It is very old, older than the UN or even World War 2. Believe it was created just after World War 1.
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Following World War I, the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres demilitarized the strait and made it an international territory under the control of the League of Nations. This was amended under the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne, which restored the straits to Turkish territory—but allowed all foreign warships and commercial shipping to traverse the straits freely. Turkey eventually rejected the terms of that treaty, and subsequently Turkey remilitarized the straits area. The reversion was formalized under the Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Turkish Straits of July 20, 1936. That convention, which is still in force, treats the straits as an international shipping lane save that Turkey retains the right to restrict the naval traffic of non-Black Sea states.
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I'll save you from looking it up - I was interested, so I did.
 
WelshBloke said:
Turkey has been warning Russia for weeks to respect it's air space.

It's not like they suddenly decided to shoot it down with no warning. They were specifically told that they would be shot down if they did it again. What did Russia do?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2012_interception_of_Turkish_aircraft
The Syrian military alleged that the fighter aircraft had violated Syrian airspace. However, Turkish president Abdullah Gül and other spokesmen have not confirmed this, though Gül said that "it is routine for jet fighters to sometimes fly in and out over [national] borders".
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DrPizza said:
I'll save you from looking it up - I was interested, so I did.
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Found this also. Key passage is in bold.

The passage of US warships through the Straits also raised controversy, as the convention forbids the transit of non-Black Sea nations' warships with guns of a calibre larger than eight inches (203 mm). In the 1960s, the US sent warships carrying 305 mm calibre ASROC missiles through the Straits, prompting Soviet protests. The Turkish government rejected the Soviet complaints, pointing out that guided missiles were not guns and that such weapons had not even existed at the time of the Convention's agreement so were not restricted.[25]

In April 1982, the Convention was amended to allow Turkey to close the Straits at its discretion in peacetime as well as during wartime.[26][verification needed]

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), which entered into force in November 1994, has prompted calls for the Montreux Convention to be revised and adapted to make it compatible with UNCLOS's regime governing straits used for international navigation. However, Turkey's long-standing refusal to sign UNCLOS has meant that Montreux remains in force without further amendments.
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senseamp said:
Time to take off the gloves. Turkey is an ISIS supporter. Kurds are ISIS enemies. If US won't arm the Kurds, Russia should. And give them anti-aircraft weapons too, in case Turkey violates their airspace.
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Proof? And let's say Russian planes were crossing into Alaska and were repeatedly warned (10 times over 5 minutes) to leave Alaskan territory but did not respond, do you think the US would let it go and not shoot them down? Get real, Turkey was well within it's rights to do what it did.
 
This is getting bizarre. But, the middle east is the area in a powder keg, not Europe and not North America.

WWI started because the powder was ignited by an act that drew large powers to defend themselves with sworn alliances/treaties.

I just don't see WWIII every being started due to some mideast power struggles. If anything, this might increase a proxy war, but that's about it.
 
^^^without knowing exactly what happened besides the news I don't think it would have been weak of Turkey to escort them and give a one time pass.
 
senseamp said:
Time to take off the gloves. Turkey is an ISIS supporter. Kurds are ISIS enemies. If US won't arm the Kurds, Russia should. And give them anti-aircraft weapons too, in case Turkey violates their airspace.
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Yeah, I am of the same opinion. Russia is likely to arm the Kurds with AA weapons to prevent such accidents from re-occurrence. I am not sure if the downed aircraft had AA missiles, likely not. Sucks when you can't fight back.

WelshBloke said:
They were specifically told that they would be shot down if they did it again. What did Russia do?
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I think it had been carefully planned and the recent Russian bombing raids on oil trucks / ISIS infrastructure was the trigger point for the Turks (they have made a fortune buying/reselling cheap oil).

The son of Erdoğan it seems is the man who makes the export sales of ISIS-controlled oil possible
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Source.
 
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norseamd said:
LOL

And I hope the Russians do that since America seems somewhat constrained. Guess we are sending arms and SF to the YPG.
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I hope they don't.

Turkey would utterly crush the Kurds even if Russia arms them.
Turkey treat the Kurds pretty badly as it is, giving them a legitimate excuse to go all out on them would be awful.
 
Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
The plane was not threatening or bombing them. So what's the upside to shooting it down?
Giving Kurdish rebels Russia as an ally and source of sophisticated weapons to kill Turks? Losing Russian tourism dollars and gas transit contracts?
 
norseamd said:
There is plenty of proof. Let me get a link.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/links-between-turkey-and-isis-are-now-undeniable-2015-7

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2396530&highlight=
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Much of that first link is just conjecture and hearsay. Of course Turkey will do anything to stymie the Kurds, that's their modus operandi and part of that could have been turning a blind eye to ISIS activity in Kurdish regions. Every state actor has to look after their own interests first but that's a far cry from tacit support of ISIS.

senseamp said:
Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
The plane was not threatening or bombing them. So what's the upside to shooting it down?
Giving Kurdish rebels Russia as an ally and source of sophisticated weapons to kill Turks? Losing Russian tourism dollars and gas transit contracts?
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Agreed, outwardly it seems like a foolish mistake and even worse considering the pilots were shot while parachuting down. But like all things, there's more to it than we know behind the scenes. I'm almost certain the US was aware of this and probably gave Turkey it's approval to engage.
 
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senseamp said:
Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

The plane was not threatening or bombing them. So what's the upside to shooting it down?

Giving Kurdish rebels Russia as an ally and source of sophisticated weapons to kill Turks? Losing Russian tourism dollars and gas transit contracts?
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No idea. Might not be good for the Turks, but it might be especially not good for the Russians. Seems that Hollande and Obama are holding a press conference right now, and that reminded me that America and France might work together very closely in the Middle East right now. And the weakest link of NATO will against the Russians were the French and Germans. And if the French and Americans are running their Middle East operations in tandem together .....
 
norseamd said:
No idea. Might not be good for the Turks, but it might be especially not good for the Russians. Seems that Hollande and Obama are holding a press conference right now, and that reminded me that America and France might work together very closely in the Middle East right now. And the weakest link of NATO will against the Russians were the French and Germans. And if the French and Americans are running their Middle East operations in tandem together .....
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Russia is not next to Syria, Turkey is.
 
norseamd said:
They already got more than a few "one time passes".
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This.

You think Putin would put up with Turkish warplanes weaving in and out over his borderlines after they had been warned not to on several occasions ?

And 10 in just this one incident. Sounds like a pilot got a bit cocky like "What are they going to do" and got a bit of a surprise.
 
senseamp said:
Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
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At some point Russia needs to listen to others and stop doing whatever the hell it wants.

It was warned about this month's ago. I'm pretty sure there was a thread here about it.

The Russian play book has been to keep pushing in the hope that everyone else is too scared to push back. Well now they have been pushed back.

And to give it context. Syrian and Turkish air forces have been shooting down each other there for years for territorial transgressions. Flying over those borders with your transceivers off and not obeying orders to leave the territory is going to get you shot down.

I'm amazed that

A) it took so long.
B) anyone is surprised by this.
 
norseamd said:
Right, but the 10th Special Forces just deployed to Ukraine, and Crimean Tatars are cutting off all the powerlines to the Crimean Peninsula.
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How does that help Turkey? Their problem is with the Kurds, whom they've just given a very powerful ally.
 
MongGrel said:
And 10 in just this one incident. Sounds like a pilot got a bit cocky like "What are they going to do" and got a bit of a surprise.
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We won't know this until/if the voice black box gets deciphered. Accidents are bound to happen in war zones, I doubt the pilot did this intentionally.
 
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5150Joker said:
Much of that first link is just conjecture and hearsay. Of course Turkey will do anything to stymie the Kurds, that's their modus operandi and part of that could have been turning a blind eye to ISIS activity in Kurdish regions. Every state actor has to look after their own interests first but that's a far cry from tacit support of ISIS.



Agreed, outwardly it seems like a foolish mistake and even worse considering the pilots were shot while parachuting down. But like all things, there's more to it than we know behind the scenes. I'm almost certain the US was aware of this and probably gave Turkey it's approval to engage.
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bolded for the lulz!
 
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