Tunisia unrest spreading? Unrest in Egypt

[Schadenfroh]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70O3UW20110125

Thousands of Egyptians demanded an end to President Hosni Mubarak's 30-year rule and clashed with police on Tuesday, in unprecedented protests inspired by the revolt that brought down Tunisia's president.
...
In Alexandria protesters tore down a picture of Mubarak, 82, and one of his son, Gamal
...
Other demonstrations took place in Ismailia and Suez, both cities east of Cairo, and in other Nile Delta cities like Mansoura and Tanta. Protesters also gathered in north Sinai.
...
in Alexandria they shouted: "Revolution, revolution, like a volcano, against Mubarak the coward."

While I would welcome a real democracy in Egypt, there is always the danger of fundamentalist elements seizing control of the country in a power vacuum. Take it, Egypt is one of the more liberal Middle Eastern countries, so the danger of that is less than others. Hope that the people get their freedom and the ability to have a more transparent, free republic.

 

[Narmer]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70O3UW20110125

While I would welcome a real democracy in Egypt, there is always the danger of fundamentalist elements seizing control of the country in a power vacuum. Take it, Egypt is one of the more liberal Middle Eastern countries, so the danger of that is less than others. Hope that the people get their freedom and the ability to have a more transparent, free republic.

What is wrong with fundamentalists seizing power in a democracy? If they do that and attack another country, wouldn't that constitute the will of the people and give their enemies full legitimacy to unleash unimaginable violence against the people and their government?

 

[Schadenfroh]

What is wrong with fundamentalists seizing power in a democracy?

I was referring to the possibility that a revolution in Egypt might not lead to a democracy.

 

[AshPhoenix]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70O4TO20110125

(Reuters) - Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Tuesday urged all sides in Egypt to exercise restraint following street protests and said she believed the Egyptian government was stable and looking for ways to respond to its people's aspirations.

Why is the US that is supposed to be a defender of democracy supporting one of the worst dictatorships in the world ?

 

[zephyrprime]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70O4TO20110125



Why is the US that is supposed to be a defender of democracy supporting one of the worst dictatorships in the world ?

The US supports tyrants whenever it is convenient to do so. This is the reality of US foreign policy.

Personally, I wish them the best of luck in overthrowing their various tyrants. I find Hillary Clinton's recommendation of "restraint" to be despicable.

 

[Narmer]

I was referring to the possibility that a revolution in Egypt might not lead to a democracy.

So? It isn't a democracy now.

 

[feralkid]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70O4TO20110125



Why is the US that is supposed to be a defender of democracy supporting one of the worst dictatorships in the world ?

One of the worst in the world?


Not even close.

 

[EagleKeeper]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70O4TO20110125



Why is the US that is supposed to be a defender of democracy supporting one of the worst dictatorships in the world ?

What is your definition of a democracy and a dictatorship?

 

[AshPhoenix]

One of the worst in the world?


Not even close.

You're talking about a president who has been in office for 30 years and wants to make his son a president !

A dictatorship that in the habit of using security forces combined with hired thugs to oppress Egyptians, Emergency law has been enforced in Egypt for the past 30 years.

Here is just two examples of Mubarak's regime's recent attrocoties :

http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/news/alexandria-policemen-beat-young-man-death-says-rights-group

http://www.ccoro.org/sayed-bilal-the-last-egyptian-tortured-and-killed/

 

[AshPhoenix]

What is your definition of a democracy and a dictatorship?

What's your point ?

 

[RedChief]

You're talking about a president who has been in office for 30 years and wants to makes his son a president !

A dictatorship that in the habit of using security forces combined with hired thugs to oppress Egyptians, Emergency law has been enforced in Egypt for the past 30 years.

Here is just two examples of Mubarak's regime's recent attrocoties.

http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/news/alexandria-policemen-beat-young-man-death-says-rights-group

http://www.ccoro.org/sayed-bilal-the-last-egyptian-tortured-and-killed/

Yep he's a good ole fashioned dictator and we support him (along with much of the rest of the world). Why? Because A) he controls the Suez Canal and B) the alternative is the fundamentalists taking over and putting a Iranian style theocracy in charge.

Yea, dictators suck, but sometimes they are better then the alternative.

 

[CPA]

What is wrong with fundamentalists seizing power in a democracy? If they do that and attack another country, wouldn't that constitute the will of the people and give their enemies full legitimacy to unleash unimaginable violence against the people and their government?

Fundementalism and democracy don't usually go hand in hand.

and as for your assumption about enemies unleashing violence against the people and their government - yeah, we saw how that turned out in Iraq. All you heard about was civilian casualties.

 

[AshPhoenix]

Yep he's a good ole fashioned dictator and we support him (along with much of the rest of the world). Why? Because A) he controls the Suez Canal and B) the alternative is the fundamentalists taking over and putting a Iranian style theocracy in charge.

Yea, dictators suck, but sometimes they are better then the alternative.

Dictatorship leads to poverty and ignorance. Poverty and ignorance lead to fundamentalism. Supporting dictators is a dumb policy that is in fact encouraging fundamentalism and hate for those who support dictators.

And the alternative does not have to be fundamentalism, it can be democracy.

 

[Lemon law]

Love Mubirak or hate him, the guy is over 80 and his days are numbered. If nothing else death by natural causes will claim him anyway, so propping him up will only backfire on entities that prop him up. Egyptian elections are scheduled coming soon, and now he may simply decline to run. Leaving Egyptians that chance to peacefully decide their own future.

As I said in another thread, change is coming all over the mid-east, and its my guess a new generation of mid-east leaders will soon be in charge.

Change is inevitable, because nothing stays the same. Certainly the US needs a new foreign policy in the mid-east because our old one has now badly failed in the mid-east.
Those that adapt properly to change can win, those that futilely resist change always fail.

 

[colonel]

Love Mubirak or hate him, the guy is over 80 and his days are numbered. If nothing else death by natural causes will claim him anyway, so propping him up will only backfire on entities that prop him up. Egyptian elections are scheduled coming soon, and now he may simply decline to run. Leaving Egyptians that chance to peacefully decide their own future.

As I said in another thread, change is coming all over the mid-east, and its my guess a new generation of mid-east leaders will soon be in charge.

Change is inevitable, because nothing stays the same. Certainly the US needs a new foreign policy in the mid-east because our old one has now badly failed in the mid-east.
Those that adapt properly to change can win, those that futilely resist change always fail.

Agreed, but this time change is coming from inside, a new guy in Egypt can start a new holy war with Israel and the Mid-east is f#uck

 

[EagleKeeper]

What is your definition of a democracy and a dictatorship?

What's your point ?

Is Egypt a democracy or dictatorship.

As far as I recall, they had elections to select the president and also have new elections selected.

There was no outcry that the elections were rigged.

To me that is a democracy, not a dictatorship - which your post implied.

Do you have another definition?

 

[Zebo]

Islamphobic Tunisian women wary of Islamic parties rise.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/01/23/134704.html

One commentator has said allowing multiple wives would help right a demographic imbalance in the country, another has called for women to stay at home in order to solve the Arab state's unemployment problem.

"Women should wear veils to prevent sexual harassment. That is what one hears now on Tunisia's streets," an article in the La Presse newspaper said....

 

[AshPhoenix]

Is Egypt a democracy or dictatorship.

As far as I recall, they had elections to select the president and also have new elections selected.

There was no outcry that the elections were rigged.

To me that is a democracy, not a dictatorship - which your post implied.

Do you have another definition?

I fail to understand how you can consider Egypt's regime democratic.

To me, and I'm an Egyptian living in Egypt, Egypt is governed by a kleptocratic dictatorship.

Most dictatorships in the world try to hide behind a fake democratic veil. In Egypt the regime has tailored the constitution to suit its needs. The result of the so called "elections" is that we still have the same dictator that has oppressed us for 30 years.

 

[Zebo]

What is wrong with fundamentalists seizing power in a democracy? If they do that and attack another country, wouldn't that constitute the will of the people and give their enemies full legitimacy to unleash unimaginable violence against the people and their government?

That's what's going to happen I think

It might sound like crazy alarmism but would a sane, sober person in roaring 20s would have thought within 20 years 50 million Europeans would lie dead? Bottom line is situations that cannot continue...don't, and the west is not compatible with Islam period.

 

[AshPhoenix]

Twitter Blocked in Egypt

http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/twitter_blocked_in_egypt.php


A Ministry of Communications official stated that Facebook also will be blocked shortly and won't be unblocked until protests end !

 

[EagleKeeper]

Is Egypt a democracy or dictatorship.

As far as I recall, they had elections to select the president and also have new elections selected.

There was no outcry that the elections were rigged.

To me that is a democracy, not a dictatorship - which your post implied.

Do you have another definition?

I fail to understand how you can consider Egypt's regime democratic.

To me, and I'm an Egyptian living in Egypt, Egypt is governed by a kleptocratic dictatorship.

Most dictatorships in the world try to hide behind a fake democratic veil. In Egypt the regime has tailored the constitution to suit its needs. The result of the so called "elections" is that we still have the same dictator that has oppressed us for 30 years.

You are living under the government and may not agree with the policies.
People here also may disagree with the policies of the government and that it is rigged to continue the same shysters in place.

If the constitution has been tailored to ensure that there is no legitimate political challenge to the government it would be a concern.

From what I have seen of Egypt and other "elected government" is that the government is able to convince the population that they are able to do a better job than the opposition. The key word is convince - how they do it may be corrupt; bribery has been a way of life for many countries when money/wealth can equate to power.

Back to my original points.

There have been elections in Egypt
There has been no outcry of rigged elections.

The above two items are what is considered the key to democracy.

While the results may not be what you desire, IE. change of government, are you able to demonstrate that no possibility existed for a change without a coup?

 

[AshPhoenix]

You are living under the government and may not agree with the policies.
People here also may disagree with the policies of the government and that it is rigged to continue the same shysters in place.

If the constitution has been tailored to ensure that there is no legitimate political challenge to the government it would be a concern.

From what I have seen of Egypt and other "elected government" is that the government is able to convince the population that they are able to do a better job than the opposition. The key word is convince - how they do it may be corrupt; bribery has been a way of life for many countries when money/wealth can equate to power.

Back to my original points.

There have been elections in Egypt
There has been no outcry of rigged elections.

The above two items are what is considered the key to democracy.

While the results may not be what you desire, IE. change of government, are you able to demonstrate that no possibility existed for a change without a coup?

The government has not convinced the population of anything of what you say. And like I said no change could be achieved for 30 years. The "elections" was not just rigged but the regime used violence and hired thugs against the people like it always does.

These people don't seem "convinced" to me, I'm not convinced either :

 

[bfdd]

I was reading comments in articles on other news sites about this this morning and there seemed to be quite a few people posting pissed off at these "secular governments" and their catering to the West. They said more of this is going to happen throughout the Arab world to establish governments more inline with Islamic law. Examples given were Jordan and Pakistan. Now I'm not sure anyone in the West wants a Pakistan that is even more hardlined with Islamic law than currently. Is this something that is a quite common belief in the area, AshPhoenix?

 

[Narmer]

You are living under the government and may not agree with the policies.
People here also may disagree with the policies of the government and that it is rigged to continue the same shysters in place.

If the constitution has been tailored to ensure that there is no legitimate political challenge to the government it would be a concern.

From what I have seen of Egypt and other "elected government" is that the government is able to convince the population that they are able to do a better job than the opposition. The key word is convince - how they do it may be corrupt; bribery has been a way of life for many countries when money/wealth can equate to power.

Back to my original points.

There have been elections in Egypt
There has been no outcry of rigged elections.

The above two items are what is considered the key to democracy.

While the results may not be what you desire, IE. change of government, are you able to demonstrate that no possibility existed for a change without a coup?

Elections were indeed rigged in Egypt. I thought this was common knowledge. ALso, the government has the habit of filling the electoral commission with sycophants. I think the only reason why you support this regime is because they are pro-Israel on many issues. Sadly, during the Iranian revolution people like you were pro-Shah because he supported Israel. Look at what happened then. Think about it, do you really want a hostile Egypt next to your beloved Israel? Also, why else on earth would you support this disgusting regime?

 

[Sacrilege]

I was reading comments in articles on other news sites about this this morning and there seemed to be quite a few people posting pissed off at these "secular governments" and their catering to the West. They said more of this is going to happen throughout the Arab world to establish governments more inline with Islamic law. Examples given were Jordan and Pakistan. Now I'm not sure anyone in the West wants a Pakistan that is even more hardlined with Islamic law than currently. Is this something that is a quite common belief in the area, AshPhoenix?

Americans need to think long and hard about whether we really want democracy in the Middle East.

It may be inspiring and nice to see these Middle Eastern liberal kids and their technocrat leadership protesting out in the street, fighting for freedumb so they can log on to Facebook. But the sad cruel fact is that if democracy was really established in all of these countries, the majority which would win elections are blood thirsty, crazed, hate spewing Islamofascists who will support Hamas, support Al Qaeda, be hostile to Israel, and hamper America's attempts to bring freedumb, peace, and liberalization of societies and markets to the region.