Trump shoots down renaming Army posts named for Confederate leaders

[Muse]

It really is odd. Of the probably over 100 stances and proposals made by this guy there's only been I think one that I liked, agreed with. I can't remember what it was right now.

 

[Muse]

I don't think removing statues of them and/or removing their names from military bases is "erasing them." If you want to learn about history, crack a damn book. You aren't really supposed to be learning history from statues and the names of military bases. If someone wants to erase their names from history books, I would strongly object to that. People need to know everything they did, good and bad.

Yes, but take down the damn statues.

 

[pcgeek11]

And now I see that Oxford University protesters are demanding the removal of Cecil Rhodes statue from the building. I guess they need to do away with the Rhodes Scholarships and everyone that received one should tear it up too.

Who is Cecil Rhodes and why are UK demonstrators protesting at his statue? | CNN

Hundreds of protesters in Oxford took to the streets outside the famed university's Oriel College on Tuesday, to demand the removal of a statue of Cecil Rhodes.

www.cnn.com

 

[darkswordsman17]

There are a lot of really good reasons why the confederates were not called or deemed traitors at the time, especially after the war.

I think enough time has passed to recognise that they fought for a horrible cause overall, and that their names don’t need to be actively honoured by the government.

History has shown those reasons should have been ignored as they made it worse instead of better.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Do they have like, sanitation ships and planes and stuff in the Navy, or whatever, that just haul shit around, and that we can name after Trump?

Nah, dredgers. Or better yet, tell him that they're making an entirely new class of ships. Let's call them "Colostomy", they'll be used for recycling shit into biofuel (aka, "Turmping" - turning others' shit into something combustible to light on fire or explode). He'll think its a mix of colony and Army and it'll make perfect sense to him for a Navy ship.

 

[darkswordsman17]

If there is a way to be on the wrong side of history Trump will find it.

If there's a wrong side of the bed Turmp has woken up on it every day of his life.

 

[woolfe9998]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Lee_(car)

It's a symbol of southern identity. Of rebel identity.
If you do not understand that, or its importance, then I wonder if you were never raised as or associated with a Regan Republican. How patriotic it is / was to spit in the face of The Big Bad Government. America was born of rebels, and the South kept on that Rebel spirit. If you don't feel the words !@#$ government, you wouldn't understand. The rebel spirit and its flag are an honored part of American culture.

So that's why the two redneck vigilantes who gunned down Ahmad Arbury had a confederate flag sticker on their toolbox? It's that rebel spirit.

Let's review what exactly that flag signifies for the south:

1. They went to war for the right to protect an institution which now even most of them admit was vile, a black stain on the cultural history of the south.
2. They made the foolish decision to fight a war they couldn't win because they could not defeat the industrial power of the north.
3. They lost over 250,000 of their young men.
4. Their cities, towns and plantations were burned in Sherman's march.
5. They lost the war and were humiliated.
6. There was never a moment of peace in the entire history of the confederacy.

While they are busy celebrating that rebel spirit, they might give a moment's thought to why they had rebelled. We fought a war because we didn't like others telling us it wasn't OK to enslave other human beings, yee haw! Not every rebel cause is a noble one.

They might also consider the effect this flag waving has on other people, rather than just thinking about themselves.

 

[Muse]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Lee_(car)

It's a symbol of southern identity. Of rebel identity.
If you do not understand that, or its importance, then I wonder if you were never raised as or associated with a Regan Republican. How patriotic it is / was to spit in the face of The Big Bad Government. America was born of rebels, and the South kept on that Rebel spirit. If you don't feel the words !@#$ government, you wouldn't understand. The rebel spirit and its flag are an honored part of American culture.

Yeah, $*&^%Government. You know that's retarded. I bet most of the people with that attitude have never worked in government, had government jobs. I've had a few and I'll tell you, it's not sexy to work in the government. Generally the jobs don't pay well, they're very beaurocratic and boring and you feel like you're going nowhere. But they're necessary. Government does the things that need to be done that nobody else is willing or capable of doing. I think flying the confederate flag as a big flip-off of government is very juvenile and morally insupportable.

And you mention Regan Republican. I'm from CA, Reagan was governor here before becoming president and he was the biggest fucking prick. He pandered to the repressive streak of the electorate very similarly to what Trumpf is doing now. He was a complete asshole.

 

[uallas5]

This rationale of honoring their history is very strange. The southern states have been under the US flag for 221 years, and the confederate flag for 4. Why the fascination with commemorating 4 years of a 225 year history which was not exactly their finest hour anyway? The state of Texas was under the Lone Star flag for 10 years. I bet you don't see a 20th as many lone star flags being flown in Texas as confederate flags.

Not long after the war was over, the South and it's sympathizers starting running a disinformation campaign that promoted ideas such as the Civil War was about States rights, slavery wasn't as bad as the North made it out to be, Black people were sometimes better than poor whites, Grant was a drunken imbecile, the North only won the because if it's industrial might, southern generals were better strategists than the northern ones, etc. By the end of the 1800's/early 1900's it not only led to such things as Jim Crow laws but also the numerous confederate statues that pervaded the US, many in area that had no ties to the Confederacy or the Civil War. That campaign still continues to this day.

 

[K1052]

Now this is a high quality proposal to rename Fort Benning:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1270714291599978496

 

[K1052]

Not long after the war was over, the South and it's sympathizers starting running a disinformation campaign that promoted ideas such as the Civil War was about States rights, slavery wasn't as bad as the North made it out to be, Black people were sometimes better than poor whites, Grant was a drunken imbecile, the North only won the because if it's industrial might, southern generals were better strategists than the northern ones, etc. By the end of the 1800's/early 1900's it not only led to such things as Jim Crow laws but also the numerous confederate statues that pervaded the US, many in area that had no ties to the Confederacy or the Civil War. That campaign still continues to this day.

The existence of the Cornerstone speech and southern states explicitly listing slavery as the primary reason for secession in their instruments for said act continues to be highly inconvenient for this kind of manipulation. If you bring those up suddenly the people who wish to rewrite the history in the above fashion aren't really interested in talking to you.

 

[ewdotson]

The existence of the Cornerstone speech and southern states explicitly listing slavery as the primary reason for secession in their instruments for said act continues to be highly inconvenient for this kind of manipulation. If you bring those up suddenly the people who wish to rewrite the history in the above fashion aren't really interested in talking to you.

What's always amazed me is how the Lost Causers will sneer at me and insist that I was clearly brainwashed as a child. The funny thing is, I've lived my entire life in Florida, Texas and Alabama. I was fed a steady diet of Lost Cause nonsense growing up. It was only when I started poking around the contemporaneous primary sources which, as you say, are *very* clear, that I started to realize just how badly I'd been mislead. Pointing out and quoting those primary sources somehow doesn't seem to generally make much of a difference though.

 

[mikeymikec]

In a series of tweets, Mr. Trump said the 10 Army posts bearing the names of Confederate generals "have become part of a Great American Heritage, and a history of Winning, Victory, and Freedom."
...
"My Administration will not even consider the renaming of these Magnificent and Fabled Military Installations," the president said. "Our history as the Greatest Nation in the World will not be tampered with."

Uh, to achieve that it may just need a "little bit" of tampering.

Maybe a discussion about which nation's history sucked the least (in terms of its actions) might be plausible.

 

[feralkid]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Lee_(car)

OK Cooter.

 

[K1052]

Of all the political turns of the last few years I can honestly say that I didn't see the Trump 2020 message being "Actually the Confederacy was awesome".

 

[HomerJS]

And now I see that Oxford University protesters are demanding the removal of Cecil Rhodes statue from the building. I guess they need to do away with the Rhodes Scholarships and everyone that received one should tear it up too.

Who is Cecil Rhodes and why are UK demonstrators protesting at his statue? | CNN

Hundreds of protesters in Oxford took to the streets outside the famed university's Oriel College on Tuesday, to demand the removal of a statue of Cecil Rhodes.

www.cnn.com

On the contrary. Any recipients should strive to effect change and push the country away from people who want to hang on to the vestiges of the confederacy.

 

[fskimospy]

What's always amazed me is how the Lost Causers will sneer at me and insist that I was clearly brainwashed as a child. The funny thing is, I've lived my entire life in Florida, Texas and Alabama. I was fed a steady diet of Lost Cause nonsense growing up. It was only when I started poking around the contemporaneous primary sources which, as you say, are *very* clear, that I started to realize just how badly I'd been mislead. Pointing out and quoting those primary sources somehow doesn't seem to generally make much of a difference though.

I think it’s because no one wants to believe their ancestors were bad people. The only problem here is that in the case of the South their ancestors were very, very bad people.

 

[zzyzxroad]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Lee_(car)

It's a symbol of southern identity. Of rebel identity.
If you do not understand that, or its importance, then I wonder if you were never raised as or associated with a Regan Republican. How patriotic it is / was to spit in the face of The Big Bad Government. America was born of rebels, and the South kept on that Rebel spirit. If you don't feel the words !@#$ government, you wouldn't understand. The rebel spirit and its flag are an honored part of American culture.

Are you intentionally glossing over when and why all these symbols of confederacy where put in place. On this topic you are either ignorant or dishonest. Which one is it?

PCG same question to you sir.

 

[Jaskalas]

So that's why the two redneck vigilantes who gunned down Ahmad Arbury had a confederate flag sticker on their toolbox? It's that rebel spirit.

There is significant crossover between Southerners and Good Old Boys like those two "redneck vigilantes".

But after the Southern Strategy flipped the South - more than a few Republicans were pulled in by the romanticized version of the South. Thus the "Rebel Spirit" take. I honestly have no idea what the numbers look like, for who believes in what. To separate villains from the general populace, but I would not paint them all with such a broad brush, or hold them all responsible for the actions of a few criminals. That kind of stereotyping has been used against Muslims far too often.

 

[UNCjigga]

There was a time when we honored the reunion of the Nation and ALL those who fought, on both sides, as American servicemen. Coming home from the Civil War meant we made peace with the South, and welcomed them back into the fold. It is strange to see the notion of honoring our fellow Americans flip to dishonor 150 years later. But then far fewer people seem to carry with them the notion of southern heritage and of belonging to those whom you now shame and dishonor.

With the passing of centuries they are fading away, and you figure now is the time to erase them entirely. Time will also tell if kicking this sleeping dog has any adverse side effects. Some number of Americans associate the war as a battle for the liberty of secession. Of state's rights and what not. Lincoln himself said the Union was his only objective. The rest merely a means to an end. The end of State's Rights, many Republicans might think. Even a slippery slope towards unconstitutional outreaches of central authoritative power when the Department of Justice was expanded. These are not uncommon ideas and themes associated with the matter. The trampling of the people by the big bad government.

So it is not slavery not slavers you tread on per say, there is more to it than that. Is it wrong to hope that you may spit on our fellow Americans and get away with it?

Well, unfortunately many in the South never let it go, with all their “the South will rise again BS”. That’s why they can’t have their nice things anymore, like Jim Crow, sundown towns, KKK and now traitor flags and statues. Maybe if they had actually accepted newly freed residents as fellow Americans with full voting rights, it wouldn’t have to come to this.

 

[Jaskalas]

Are you intentionally glossing over when and why all these symbols of confederacy where put in place. On this topic you are either ignorant or dishonest. Which one is it?

Would it surprise you to learn there is more than one perspective?

Forgive me for offending your delicate sensibilities as I explain and share knowledge with other people... of other people. Some posters here may be interested in learning the Republican perspective. Though I would advise you to follow Sun Tzu's "know the enemy", rather than remaining a blunt instrument.

 

[zzyzxroad]

Would it surprise you to learn there is more than one perspective?

Forgive me for offending your delicate sensibilities as I explain and share knowledge with other people... of other people. Some posters here may be interested in learning the Republican perspective. Though I would advise you to follow Sun Tzu's "know the enemy", rather than remaining a blunt instrument.

I don't have delicate sensibilities. I do have facts though. I dont blame you for avoiding my question.

 

[woolfe9998]

Not long after the war was over, the South and it's sympathizers starting running a disinformation campaign that promoted ideas such as the Civil War was about States rights, slavery wasn't as bad as the North made it out to be, Black people were sometimes better than poor whites, Grant was a drunken imbecile, the North only won the because if it's industrial might, southern generals were better strategists than the northern ones, etc. By the end of the 1800's/early 1900's it not only led to such things as Jim Crow laws but also the numerous confederate statues that pervaded the US, many in area that had no ties to the Confederacy or the Civil War. That campaign still continues to this day.

I don't know about the rest of that, but insofar as the civil war being about "state's rights" I'm pretty sure these primary source documents say otherwise. I mean, it's hard to conceive of better evidence of why the southern states seceded than the official declarations of the southern states asserting their official reasons for seceding. You'd think these documents alone, even without all the other historical evidence, would slam the door shut on that argument, but apparently not.

 

[Muse]

What's always amazed me is how the Lost Causers will sneer at me and insist that I was clearly brainwashed as a child. The funny thing is, I've lived my entire life in Florida, Texas and Alabama. I was fed a steady diet of Lost Cause nonsense growing up. It was only when I started poking around the contemporaneous primary sources which, as you say, are *very* clear, that I started to realize just how badly I'd been mislead. Pointing out and quoting those primary sources somehow doesn't seem to generally make much of a difference though.

What exactly is Lost Cause nonsense?

Edit:

Google Search

www.google.com

 

[feralkid]

Would it surprise you to learn there is more than one perspective?

No surprise at all:
Slavery is good vs Slavery is bad.
Lynching is good vs Lynching is bad.

Traitorous insurrection is good vs... well I think we all can see which "perspective" you have chosen to defend.