Tropes vs. Women Author Driven From Home

[Nebor]

So, you are saying if a dude doesn't save a girl in a game then they won't make as much profit? That's a pretty demanding audience there.

So you're just here to slander gamers?

 

[cmdrdredd]

There are tons of games with different storylines sure! However, just look at the big games I listed a few pages ago. All have the singular mechanic of saving a helpless female. If it was saving a person, then sure, its just a well-troden plot device, but it is nearly always a helpless girl.

Did you not fire up Watch Dogs and roll your eyes when the entire game hinged on Aiden's revenge for his sister's child? Even the sister didn't want him to get revenge. Aidens revenge even led to more violence against his sister. Its becoming a parody of itself. Watch Dog's writing was atrocious by the way and hit just about every facet of humanity with a gross stereotype. I remember the black guys kept saying "All I have is my word and my balls." Classy writing, sounds like an idiotic high schooler wrote that game.

Actually that is closer to reality than you think it is but keep living in a world where gamers are wrong for playing games and everything is a stereotype.

Who's side are you on anyway? I mean we play games cause we like games. I'm not so sure about you now.

So you're just here to slander gamers?

Seems like it doesn't it? Games sell because people want to be the hero and the hero usually gets the girl at the end.

Why aren't these people out there against Hollywood? They are far worse on stereotypes, and all the other things people are arguing against games and gamers about. Maybe its because Hollywood already made it clear they don't GAF and will continue to make what sells.

 

[nehalem256]

There are tons of games with different storylines sure! However, just look at the big games I listed a few pages ago. All have the singular mechanic of saving a helpless female. If it was saving a person, then sure, its just a well-troden plot device, but it is nearly always a helpless girl.

Did you not fire up Watch Dogs and roll your eyes when the entire game hinged on Aiden's revenge for his sister's child? Even the sister didn't want him to get revenge. Aidens revenge even led to more violence against his sister. Its becoming a parody of itself. Watch Dog's writing was atrocious by the way and hit just about every facet of humanity with a gross stereotype.

So niece DIES. Character seeks revenge. Do I really need to explain to you why that isn't about saving a helpless female?

I remember the black guys kept saying "All I have is my word and my balls." Classy writing, sounds like an idiotic high schooler wrote that game.

Or a rapper

 

[Red Storm]

So niece DIES. Character seeks revenge. Do I really need to explain to you why that isn't about saving a helpless female?

Yeah his argument just doesn't add up. Thinking the same way, should we start complaining that most commercials shown during sporting events are marketed towards men? Or how about all the ads focused on women during soap operas? All those toy commercials during kids' cartoons? I mean it's not fair, right?

It's like that because they know who their audience is mostly comprised of.

If Subyman only seems to run into games that feature man saving damsel, then he needs to open his eyes a little more and realize that there's a whole LOT more to the gaming genre than that one stereotype. He's only complaining about a small subset of games, which doesn't make any sense to do.

 

[Subyman]

So you're just here to slander gamers?

Lol you are the one saying gamers won't buy games that don't have girls in trouble. You know, your whole "economics" lessons thing. You are the one slandering gamers. I believe, as a gamer myself, that other gamers would love to see new plots. I am slandering crappy video game writing!

 

[BoberFett]

I'm aware of the common literary themes and was looking for a good list to link here.

But the fact is, if we all wanted to run around scoring points for being helpful, we wouldn't be playing video games. We can do that in real life.

Let's look at some the top selling games/franchises of 2013:

GTA: A series where you're a criminal, committing crimes. But you can visit a strip club (something many criminals are fond of doing in real life) so it's sexist
Call of Duty: It's a military themed first person shooter, the point of the military is to save something.
FIFA: It's soccer. But since it's just men, I suppose it's sexist.
Pokemon: Are there even people in that game?
Assassin's Creed: You're killing people and trying to solve a mystery. I'm trying to remember if there was ever a female target in any of those games. Of course it's probably considered sexist that all the people we're supposed to kill are male.
The Last of Us: Never played it, but isn't it a survival game?
Animal Crossing: Enough said.
Tomb Raider: Now that they've toned down her... bounciness, is there really anything to complain about there?
Monster Hunter: Presumably you're hunting monsters.
Bioshock: Never played much of any of these, can't comment.

Looks to me like there's plenty of diversity, and not really all that much saving the girl.

Having a hard time coming up with conflict? I'll get you started, from the book Plotto here are the major categories:

Misfortune
Mistaken Judgement
Helpfulness
Deliverance
Idealism
Obligation
Necessity
Chance
Personal Limitations
Simulation
Craftiness
Transgression
Revenge
Mystery
Revelation

Bolded are the two in which the save-the-girl or get revenge for her death are sub-categories of. Plenty more to explore there, even in the same category there is more to explore than saving girls. As for your other comments, you surely know and agree with the position that because someone else does something doesn't make it "good." TV and Hollywood are cesspits of crappy plots and throw away movies, so not a high bar at all there.

The problem is that the industry has terrible writers. The same plot over and over, crappy prose, and on and on. If it takes a feminist movement to get some good writers in there to create complex characters and new plots then let's do this. I'm tired of playing dude-bro saving the world.

PS seriously, look up the book Plotto. It is fun to glance through. There are millions of plots.

 

[Subyman]

Actually that is closer to reality than you think it is but keep living in a world where gamers are wrong for playing games and everything is a stereotype.

Who's side are you on anyway? I mean we play games cause we like games. I'm not so sure about you now.

I'm on my side. I want to see new stories. Like I've said before, do we want to play the same plot line over and over our whole life?

Seems like it doesn't it? Games sell because people want to be the hero and the hero usually gets the girl at the end.

Why aren't these people out there against Hollywood? They are far worse on stereotypes, and all the other things people are arguing against games and gamers about. Maybe its because Hollywood already made it clear they don't GAF and will continue to make what sells.

Ask yourself (and it will be hard because you are pretty entrenched in your position of tradition), what is great about defending the tired plot line? Save girl, get girl, get a kiss, etc etc. Let's try some new stuff.

This is really a case of you guys defending the save-the-girl plot device. I'm certainly not against it, but I'm tired of seeing it so often. Like I mentioned to Bobbafetter, there are tons and tons of plots, but a large number of writers keep falling back on the same one over and over.

For me it is less about a feminist movement and more about wanting to see more variety. How can you say no to wanting more variety of stories?

FWIW, lose the "why are you going after x because its doing the same thing." I'm not into Hollywood. I don't care about movies as much as games, so...

 

[Subyman]

So niece DIES. Character seeks revenge. Do I really need to explain to you why that isn't about saving a helpless female?



Or a rapper

I guess you haven't watched the series. Revenge for girls death and saving her are wrapped up in the same thing. They are variations on the "trope cocktail."

Save girl get girl
Find girl, she's already dead
Wife/daughter/sister killed, get revenge to regain manliness
Girl is killed, her soul is taken, must free her soul (lol, wtf)
etc etc

All plays on man can't protect his woman, he loses manliness and must kill people to become manly again.

Just casually look for that motivator for the story. It gets tiring.

 

[Subyman]

Yeah his argument just doesn't add up. Thinking the same way, should we start complaining that most commercials shown during sporting events are marketed towards men? Or how about all the ads focused on women during soap operas? All those toy commercials during kids' cartoons? I mean it's not fair, right?

It's like that because they know who their audience is mostly comprised of.

If Subyman only seems to run into games that feature man saving damsel, then he needs to open his eyes a little more and realize that there's a whole LOT more to the gaming genre than that one stereotype. He's only complaining about a small subset of games, which doesn't make any sense to do.

Nope, I play all kinds of games. I don't "only happen upon man saving damsel." Nice reduction though. Obviously, as I've said many times, its the big name story-driven games that like to use those plot devices over and over. Compared to all other plot devices, it is by far the most used and gets boring/tired/old.

Again, you are saying pretty much what Neber is saying. That men need to save women in their games or they get bored/won't buy it/rate it lower. I don't take that position. I think men enjoy many types of plots and story-lines. Free us from having women killed in our faces and vowing revenge! lol

I never would have thought I'd see so many people come out to defend wanting to see more of the same story. The worse thing that can come out of this is that we see new stories in big budget games. The best thing is that you are exposed to new and interesting things.

 

[cmdrdredd]

We aren't advocating for the same stories. We are just saying that we are not sexist or whatever because we happen to play a certain game and we should never be labeled as such because we enjoy free roaming in GTA or some of the ideas in watch dogs or any other game for that matter. Just like we aren't terrorists if we play as the bad guys in counter strike.

We don't want these knee jerk reactionists to change the types of games available to us. There are countries that ban or censor games and that sometimes ruins the artistic vision of the developer.

 

[BoberFett]

I'm on my side. I want to see new stories. Like I've said before, do we want to play the same plot line over and over our whole life?



Ask yourself (and it will be hard because you are pretty entrenched in your position of tradition), what is great about defending the tired plot line? Save girl, get girl, get a kiss, etc etc. Let's try some new stuff.

This is really a case of you guys defending the save-the-girl plot device. I'm certainly not against it, but I'm tired of seeing it so often. Like I mentioned to Bobbafetter, there are tons and tons of plots, but a large number of writers keep falling back on the same one over and over.

For me it is less about a feminist movement and more about wanting to see more variety. How can you say no to wanting more variety of stories?

FWIW, lose the "why are you going after x because its doing the same thing." I'm not into Hollywood. I don't care about movies as much as games, so...

There is plenty of variety, if you open your eyes.

 

[Subyman]

We aren't advocating for the same stories. We are just saying that we are not sexist or whatever because we happen to play a certain game and we should never be labeled as such because we enjoy free roaming in GTA or some of the ideas in watch dogs or any other game for that matter. Just like we aren't terrorists if we play as the bad guys in counter strike.

We don't want these knee jerk reactionists to change the types of games available to us. There are countries that ban or censor games and that sometimes ruins the artistic vision of the developer.

Okay, I think we are definitely getting somewhere. I agree with you. The people labeling people that play games as sexist are obviously being hyperbolic (and I haven't called anyone sexist here.) I played Watch Dogs and beat it. The gameplay was meh and the story was bad, but I'm certainly not a racist/sexist or whatever because I played it. I played GTA5 and really enjoyed it, great game.

I'm not advocating for changing the types of games we have either. The biggest issue this entire thing brought up for me is the stagnation of plots. Some of the best stories I've had in games have been from indie developers over the last few years. The stories in big budget games haven't struck a cord with me since... well I can't really remember.

I don't believe Anita is going after gamers. I think she is going after lazy developers and trying to change the cookie-cutter, go-to plot line that many games employ. Her angle is that it is degrading to women. I don't go so far to say that, my angle is I'd like to play new games and regardless of the motivation, both our views lead to the same outcome: exploring new stories and maybe being able to play a game built from the ground up with the female perspective more often. I'm open to that. I liked Mirror's Edge, Gone Home, The Longest Journey, and Tomb Raider.

I see it another way too. Just as Anita doesn't like her gender to play victim a lot of times, I get tired of having to play a man that can't protect his family and must either spend 8 hours trying to save them or get revenge. That doesn't resonate with me anymore. I've played that game many times. I'd like big budget developers to explore other facets of being a man, or just being a human.

In the end, I think we all want the same thing: good games. I'm open to moving away from certain plot lines to explore new things.

PS Just think about a Mario game without saving Peach, what would they come up with? I'd like to know!

 

[Subyman]

There is plenty of variety, if you open your eyes.

... Duh. I've played many games without that plot line. Since you missed it:

Nope, I play all kinds of games. I don't "only happen upon man saving damsel." Nice reduction though. Obviously, as I've said many times, its the big name story-driven games that like to use those plot devices over and over. Compared to all other plot devices, it is by far the most used and gets boring/tired/old.

 

[norseamd]

There is plenty of variety, if you open your eyes.

He is ignoring you because you are dispelling the validity of his regurgitated propaganda.

 

[BoberFett]

... Duh. I've played many games without that plot line. Since you missed it:

See my list of top selling games above. Plenty of options, even in the AAA list.

 

[BoberFett]

I see it another way too. Just as Anita doesn't like her gender to play victim a lot of times, I get tired of having to play a man that can't protect his family and must either spend 8 hours trying to save them or get revenge. That doesn't resonate with me anymore. I've played that game many times. I'd like big budget developers to explore other facets of being a man, or just being a human.

Other facets of being a man?

Yes, I'm sure the Climbing the Corporate Ladder would be a great game. Paperwork Simulator 2014!

As I stated, we play these games to do things we don't do every day. I explore the facets of being a man day in and day out. I don't need to play a video game for that.

When we do these extreme actions in game, it is due to an extreme crisis in the story. What drives a man to the kind of violence that we see in these games? If it's anything less than saving the world or avenging his murdered family, then I'd say that's even more messed up than what we have now. The hero gets served regular coffee instead of decaf and goes on a murderous rampage through Farbucks headquarters until he reaches the final boss: The CEO. Yeah, sounds great.

 

[norseamd]

PS Just think about a Mario game without saving Peach, what would they come up with? I'd like to know!

Toad. But of course Princess Peach also has the name Princess Toadstool since she is actually the princess of that Kingdom so that must certainly also be very much sexist and discriminatory. But since you feel like you talking are in such a haughty and contemptuous we can call you an asshole.

Nevermind that Luigi has saved Mario many times before in some of his own games that go back decades. You can also play as Princess Peach or Toad in the same games as Mario and Luigi and save the same shit they do. Also I would not be surprised if there was a game where Princess Peach and possibly Toad had to save Mario because he was in trouble with Bowser or something. That game plot has been done many times before in the video game industry. But I suppose all of that is meaningless because it is prior art dispelling the propaganda of the fraudulent morality gestapo.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Okay, I think we are definitely getting somewhere. I agree with you. The people labeling people that play games as sexist are obviously being hyperbolic (and I haven't called anyone sexist here.) I played Watch Dogs and beat it. The gameplay was meh and the story was bad, but I'm certainly not a racist/sexist or whatever because I played it. I played GTA5 and really enjoyed it, great game.

I'm not advocating for changing the types of games we have either. The biggest issue this entire thing brought up for me is the stagnation of plots. Some of the best stories I've had in games have been from indie developers over the last few years. The stories in big budget games haven't struck a cord with me since... well I can't really remember.

I don't believe Anita is going after gamers. I think she is going after lazy developers and trying to change the cookie-cutter, go-to plot line that many games employ. Her angle is that it is degrading to women. I don't go so far to say that, my angle is I'd like to play new games and regardless of the motivation, both our views lead to the same outcome: exploring new stories and maybe being able to play a game built from the ground up with the female perspective more often. I'm open to that. I liked Mirror's Edge, Gone Home, The Longest Journey, and Tomb Raider.

I see it another way too. Just as Anita doesn't like her gender to play victim a lot of times, I get tired of having to play a man that can't protect his family and must either spend 8 hours trying to save them or get revenge. That doesn't resonate with me anymore. I've played that game many times. I'd like big budget developers to explore other facets of being a man, or just being a human.

In the end, I think we all want the same thing: good games. I'm open to moving away from certain plot lines to explore new things.

PS Just think about a Mario game without saving Peach, what would they come up with? I'd like to know!

I have found many games that are not indie games that don't fall into the category of "guy saves girl".

Halo, Last of Us, Assassin's Creed, Dishonored, Skyrim.

None of those have a central plot where you have to save someone. Maybe fulfill a prophecy or do what it takes to prevent the destruction of the world or something like that. Whether you like he games or not doesn't matter for the point to be made.

What I am honestly afraid is happening with people like Anita who are not gamers and don't make games, is a reaction to certain types of games and then painting any who enjoy that game in a negative light. Then the media picks up on it and even more people who aren't gamers start to say things like " wow gamers are all dicks". Say it enough and people start to believe it. What happens next is people say it is the games themselves that make gamers bad people and they try to change the types of games we can play. The focus is no longer on the games but on what is viewed as a problem with a section of society, gamers in this case. The problem is, there may be developers who start changing their games for the sake of being politically correct and avoid offending someone. That will be a sad thing indeed.

 

[nehalem256]

I guess you haven't watched the series. Revenge for girls death and saving her are wrapped up in the same thing. They are variations on the "trope cocktail."

Save girl get girl
Find girl, she's already dead
Wife/daughter/sister killed, get revenge to regain manliness
Girl is killed, her soul is taken, must free her soul (lol, wtf)
etc etc

All plays on man can't protect his woman, he loses manliness and must kill people to become manly again.

That seems like quite a stretch.

Just casually look for that motivator for the story. It gets tiring.

Maybe because sex is basically the biggest motivator for teenage boys?:hmm:

 

[nehalem256]

Other facets of being a man?

Yes, I'm sure the Climbing the Corporate Ladder would be a great game. Paperwork Simulator 2014!

Why do you think a man spends 12 hours a day trying to climb the corporate ladder?

Sounds like its still basically the same game.

 

[BoberFett]

Why do you think a man spends 12 hours a day trying to climb the corporate ladder?

Sounds like its still basically the same game.

LOL, good point.

I'm sure quite a few anthropologists would argue that almost everything we do in life is somehow related to sex. Nerds traditionally weren't getting any from real women, so is it really surprising that they created a substitution through gaming?

 

[nehalem256]

PS Just think about a Mario game without saving Peach, what would they come up with? I'd like to know!

Mario, Luigi, Toad and the Princess must free the dreamland known as Subcon from a villainous frog known as Wart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros._2

The game centers on the quest of Mario and Luigi to save Dinosaur Land from Bowser, the series' antagonist. The two brothers must travel across seven worlds to restore order to Dinosaur Land. It built on the gameplay of previous Mario games by introducing new power-ups that augment character abilities, and established conventions that were carried over to future games in the series. Super Mario World marks the first appearance of Yoshi, Mario's dinosaur sidekick and riding mount.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_World

Maybe that?

Even arguably

Super Mario Bros. 3 centers on plumbers Mario and Luigi who embark on a quest to save Princess Toadstool and the rulers of seven different kingdoms from the antagonist Bowser and his children, the Koopalings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros._3

 

[Aikouka]

I'm not advocating for changing the types of games we have either. The biggest issue this entire thing brought up for me is the stagnation of plots. Some of the best stories I've had in games have been from indie developers over the last few years. The stories in big budget games haven't struck a cord with me since... well I can't really remember.

That's one of the things that TotalBiscuit mentioned about it on last week's podcast. Although, I guess it's just safe to say that most people don't care if the plot has generic aspects to it as long as it's told well. For example, Max Payne and Max Payne 2 don't exactly have the most unique plots, but they're considered really good games.

Honestly though... there's a reason why we see the same basic plot points used in stories: they work really well. I watch a lot of movies, and one of the worst things a movie can do is not get the viewer invested in the characters. Having something happen to a character's loved one works well because it's something to which we can relate. Looking back at Max Payne, just imagine if you're starting that game and you hear the gleeful laughter of your young child while watching the initial cutscene that details the gruesome murder of Max's child (and wife).

The movie Taken is another good example. It boiled down to a plot where a guy tries to rescue his daughter; however, the beginning is one of the things that makes the movie different. The beginning of the movie works to establish two things: (1) we see that the main character is a bad ass while protecting that singer (2) we see that he's just a normal guy that's trying to keep close with his somewhat estranged, soon-to-be-abducted daughter.

Just look at some of the threads in Off Topic about something bad happening to a child. I guarantee that you'll find posts in the threads where people mention the topic causing them to think about their own children/family.

Her angle is that it is degrading to women.

The problem is that I don't think most people see it that way, and that's what annoys them. A little bit more on this in the next quote as I think it fits there...

PS Just think about a Mario game without saving Peach, what would they come up with? I'd like to know!

The thing is... the story matters so little in the Mario games. It's really just loose reasoning for the player to go through each stage where the "real fun" is supposed to be the platforming. Arguably, Princess Peach or Pauline in the original Donkey Kong are not much different than the crystals in early Final Fantasy games. Their entity doesn't contain much, but they're the object that we seek.

Now, I assume Sarkeesian would be quick to point out that I specifically used the word "object" when in reference to Princess Peach and Pauline (both being women). My response to this would be, "So what?" Given time to muster up a decent response, I may say something like, "Is there any credibility to the statement that female characters existing as a goal in game actually cause harm to the gender?"

People like Anita remind me a lot of this one woman that I encountered at my first job. Like most people, I'm the type that's willing to hold the door open for the person behind me (so long as they would actually be able to reach the door prior to it closing). It's really just done as a courtesy. However, one day, I held the door open for this woman, and she just snapped at me, "I can open the door myself!" Honestly, I just looked at her dumbfounded, closed the door in her face, and left. I feel like that event is a lot like this feminist movement that you see. I wasn't holding open the door because a female was behind me, I was holding open the door because a person was behind me.

People are just thinking so negatively about things that are trivial in nature, and assuming the worst.

 

[werepossum]

I'm going to stay at my friend's place. Please notify the media.

Okay, I think we are definitely getting somewhere. I agree with you. The people labeling people that play games as sexist are obviously being hyperbolic (and I haven't called anyone sexist here.) I played Watch Dogs and beat it. The gameplay was meh and the story was bad, but I'm certainly not a racist/sexist or whatever because I played it. I played GTA5 and really enjoyed it, great game.

I'm not advocating for changing the types of games we have either. The biggest issue this entire thing brought up for me is the stagnation of plots. Some of the best stories I've had in games have been from indie developers over the last few years. The stories in big budget games haven't struck a cord with me since... well I can't really remember.

I don't believe Anita is going after gamers. I think she is going after lazy developers and trying to change the cookie-cutter, go-to plot line that many games employ. Her angle is that it is degrading to women. I don't go so far to say that, my angle is I'd like to play new games and regardless of the motivation, both our views lead to the same outcome: exploring new stories and maybe being able to play a game built from the ground up with the female perspective more often. I'm open to that. I liked Mirror's Edge, Gone Home, The Longest Journey, and Tomb Raider.

I see it another way too. Just as Anita doesn't like her gender to play victim a lot of times, I get tired of having to play a man that can't protect his family and must either spend 8 hours trying to save them or get revenge. That doesn't resonate with me anymore. I've played that game many times. I'd like big budget developers to explore other facets of being a man, or just being a human.

In the end, I think we all want the same thing: good games. I'm open to moving away from certain plot lines to explore new things.

PS Just think about a Mario game without saving Peach, what would they come up with? I'd like to know!

Haven't had the dubious pleasure of sampling Anita's recent steaming piles of, um, journalism, but my take on her from past kerfuffles is that she is not only habitually going after gamers but doing so quite clumsily, with only the bare minimum depth of knowledge required to sound reasonable to others similarly ignorant.

And seriously, Mario? Only Mario games to which I've ever been exposed are those my seven year old grandson plays which are exclusively either racing games or platformers conspicuously missing Miss Peach. As far as I can tell, the plot of Mario games is like many other subpar games, progression for the sake of progression.

Of the games I habitually play, I have shooters such as Call of Duty, Counterstrike (where hostages are uniformly male - although so are all the combatants as far as I've noticed), and the two latest Fallout games where those you help or save seem to be reasonably well balanced gender-wise. Problem not found.

LOL, good point.

I'm sure quite a few anthropologists would argue that almost everything we do in life is somehow related to sex. Nerds traditionally weren't getting any from real women, so is it really surprising that they created a substitution through gaming?

Off topic but I'm not sure that's accurate anymore. Seems to me that nerds are today recognized as less likely to have a sexually transmitted disease, less likely to cheat, less likely to use so many personal care products that no room remains for hers, and more likely to have gainful employment. Also, we have a LOT of women gamers. Surely between those two factors, nerds are getting laid. (After Mom and Grams go to bed upstairs, I mean.)

 

[BoberFett]

Off topic but I'm not sure that's accurate anymore. Seems to me that nerds are today recognized as less likely to have a sexually transmitted disease, less likely to cheat, less likely to use so many personal care products that no room remains for hers, and more likely to have gainful employment. Also, we have a LOT of women gamers. Surely between those two factors, nerds are getting laid. (After Mom and Grams go to bed upstairs, I mean.)

That doesn't change anything I said. Sex is a deeply ingrained part of the human condition, and for the gamer culture even moreso because historically they weren't getting laid and games were a fantasy outlet. Perhaps if women were more egalitarian in choosing who to sleep with instead of all chasing after the top 20% of males (as some studies have shown) then nerds may never have depended on this outlet. This really isn't about games, it's about far deeper societal and cultural issues, but Sarkeesian found an easy target to make a name on.