Track Car Suggestions

[Dr. Detroit]

I had prepared for this type of thing, naturally, as an avid internet-goer... but I will admit that I probably should have been more careful.

Firstly, it does not take 16.4 seconds to get a brz/86 to 100mph, unless you're towing an atv or something. On 93 octane, I can get to 60 in just under 6 seconds and then maybe another 6 to 7 seconds to get to 100 thereafter. Keep in mind this is a full manual, stock tune, and no weight reduction.

The 2017 Model is also up 5HP/5TQ over previous years and Car & Driver managed a 1/4mile in 14.8 seconds @ 95mph - 0 -100mph time is 16.3 seconds.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-subaru-brz-manual-test-review

 

[Billb2]

There's no cheaper racing than Lemons / Chump.
The suggestion to buy a seat is a good one.
One weekend race will get you way more track time than a year of racing around cones.

 

[agent00f]

There's no cheaper racing than Lemons / Chump.
The suggestion to buy a seat is a good one.
One weekend race will get you way more track time than a year of racing around cones.

Karting is mostly cheaper than shitbox racing and you actually get to drive something designed for it instead of the worst piece of junk someone will let onto a racetrack.

In the scheme of things, spending the cost of running any sort of wannabe racing car on decent instruction instead will improve driving skill substantial more than hacking away at the wheel and hoping for the best, even if you have to go around in a minivan. Literally every amateur sport involving equipment is plagued with people who have little idea what they're doing fixated on equipment choices that don't matter, and racing is arguing the worst at this.

 

[jlee]

Karting is mostly cheaper than shitbox racing and you actually get to drive something designed for it instead of the worst piece of junk someone will let onto a racetrack.

In the scheme of things, spending the cost of running any sort of wannabe racing car on decent instruction instead will improve driving skill substantial more than hacking away at the wheel and hoping for the best, even if you have to go around in a minivan. Literally every amateur sport involving equipment is plagued with people who have little idea what they're doing fixated on equipment choices that don't matter, and racing is arguing the worst at this.

The combination of truth and irony here is nothing short of outstanding.

 

[Toastedlightly]

There's no cheaper racing than Lemons / Chump.
The suggestion to buy a seat is a good one.
One weekend race will get you way more track time than a year of racing around cones.

As an avid cone racer I'll agree, but the cones have a lot less inherent risk and a lot less cost (if you are in a street class).

 

[Billb2]

Karting is mostly cheaper than shitbox racing and you actually get to drive something designed for it instead of the worst piece of junk someone will let onto a racetrack.

In the scheme of things, spending the cost of running any sort of wannabe racing car on decent instruction instead will improve driving skill substantial more than hacking away at the wheel and hoping for the best, even if you have to go around in a minivan. Literally every amateur sport involving equipment is plagued with people who have little idea what they're doing fixated on equipment choices that don't matter, and racing is arguing the worst at this.

I can buy into that. I have quite a few laps in karts racing against everything from wannabe kids to Champ Car drivers. It's a good place to learn racing basics, and the people are very helpful to nOObies, as they are in everything up to the lower pro racing ranks.

 

[EXCellR8]

The entirety of the internet disagree's with that assessment. I can't find a single reputable site getting the car to 60 in under 6 seconds or to 100 in under 16. I loved then handling and interior on mine, but quick cars they are not.

"quick" can be applied to many different aspects. yes, the car is not very powerful at under 200whp and the factory torque hit (which can be smoothed out with a simple computer flash) definitely impacts the acceleration performance. the car is not meant to be a supra successor, but it is plenty "quick" if you are determined to earn it. The car is capable on a track, but mine has under 15k on it and I don't drive it like every 17 year old with a '03 WRX.

oh, and the entirety of the internet can disagree all they want... that's basically what it's for

Search for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=brz+1/4+mile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYsr_BlKvEM

Car and Driver & Motor Trend list the 2013 BRZ 6MT zero to sixty anywhere from 6.3 to 6.7 seconds, but there is no indication of what fuel grade, tire pressure, or driving conditions. These may be very tiny factors, but they will affect overall performance. I have seen plenty of other drivers run the gamut from 6 even to up to 8 seconds, so not one person can determine the true value.

Also, Subaru/Fuji HI claim the 0-60 time is over 7 seconds, so that would indeed account for 16+ seconds to 100mph.

The FA20 is an economy engine, and nothing more. You can absolutely be quick in the car, but you'll be disappointed in a drag race for sure.

 

[rstrohkirch]

Going to agree and ask if you have seriously considered karts. Do you have kart tracks near you? Even a $2k motorcycle is drastically more fun than a $2k beater of a car. I assume you're doing this to have fun and you're doing yourself a serious disservice by not looking at smaller options.

 

[agent00f]

As an avid cone racer I'll agree, but the cones have a lot less inherent risk and a lot less cost (if you are in a street class).

Short circuits are also more technical which is arguably less fun but a better learning environment. Similar to indoor karting tracks where you have to sweat the details more, even if they're rather tedious to drive.

I can buy into that. I have quite a few laps in karts racing against everything from wannabe kids to Champ Car drivers. It's a good place to learn racing basics, and the people are very helpful to nOObies, as they are in everything up to the lower pro racing ranks.

It really helps that the level of competition is substantially higher than anything you can into with cars even if you spent an order or two magnitude more money. Racing at a respectable level in cars is hideously expensive. The skill level even in better amateur weekend leagues is probably faster than almost anything that doesn't warrant a pit crew.

"quick" can be applied to many different aspects. yes, the car is not very powerful at under 200whp and the factory torque hit (which can be smoothed out with a simple computer flash) definitely impacts the acceleration performance. the car is not meant to be a supra successor, but it is plenty "quick" if you are determined to earn it. The car is capable on a track, but mine has under 15k on it and I don't drive it like every 17 year old with a '03 WRX.

oh, and the entirety of the internet can disagree all they want... that's basically what it's for

Car and Driver & Motor Trend list the 2013 BRZ 6MT zero to sixty anywhere from 6.3 to 6.7 seconds, but there is no indication of what fuel grade, tire pressure, or driving conditions. These may be very tiny factors, but they will affect overall performance. I have seen plenty of other drivers run the gamut from 6 even to up to 8 seconds, so not one person can determine the true value.

Also, Subaru/Fuji HI claim the 0-60 time is over 7 seconds, so that would indeed account for 16+ seconds to 100mph.

The FA20 is an economy engine, and nothing more. You can absolutely be quick in the car, but you'll be disappointed in a drag race for sure.

Why are you arguing how fast your car is?

 

[jlee]

It really helps that the level of competition is substantially higher than anything you can into with cars even if you spent an order or two magnitude more money. Racing at a respectable level in cars is hideously expensive. The skill level even in better amateur weekend leagues is probably faster than almost anything that doesn't warrant a pit crew.

Source?

 

[agent00f]

Source?

Look at how close the pack is.

This is hardly surprising given that skill level is a function of focused improvement, and the cost/availability of quality seat time multiplies that rate.

 

[rstrohkirch]

Is the cost for a car track day more or less than a bike? Bike averages $150 a day here during summer + gate. Kart track is $30-40 usually and mx track is a little bit cheaper than kart.

 

[Fenixgoon]

"quick" can be applied to many different aspects. yes, the car is not very powerful at under 200whp and the factory torque hit (which can be smoothed out with a simple computer flash) definitely impacts the acceleration performance. the car is not meant to be a supra successor, but it is plenty "quick" if you are determined to earn it. The car is capable on a track, but mine has under 15k on it and I don't drive it like every 17 year old with a '03 WRX.

oh, and the entirety of the internet can disagree all they want... that's basically what it's for



Car and Driver & Motor Trend list the 2013 BRZ 6MT zero to sixty anywhere from 6.3 to 6.7 seconds, but there is no indication of what fuel grade, tire pressure, or driving conditions. These may be very tiny factors, but they will affect overall performance. I have seen plenty of other drivers run the gamut from 6 even to up to 8 seconds, so not one person can determine the true value.

Also, Subaru/Fuji HI claim the 0-60 time is over 7 seconds, so that would indeed account for 16+ seconds to 100mph.

The FA20 is an economy engine, and nothing more. You can absolutely be quick in the car, but you'll be disappointed in a drag race for sure.

while there may be no "true" value for either 1/4 mile or 100mph, there is going to be some lower limit value (assuming a flat, level road), because physics. perhaps it's best to say "most reasonable estimate of 0-100mph" in which case 16s would be a very reasonable value based on a variety of publications. i highly doubt a stock frs/brz could get down to 13-14 seconds. no matter how good a launch you get, there's simply not enough power/torque i'd guess. hell, my 70hp motorcycle did 106mph @ 13.5 in the 1/4 (personal time), and that has a very favorable power to weight ratio (now my 1000cc sport/standard does 0-100 in 6s and the 1/4 mile in 10.5 supposedly )

anyway, the best cheap track car is still going to be a miata IMO.

Is the cost for a car track day more or less than a bike? Bike averages $150 a day here during summer + gate. Kart track is $30-40 usually and mx track is a little bit cheaper than kart.

yes, car track days tend to be a bit more expensive than bikes from what i've seen.

 

[jlee]

Look at how close the pack is.

This is hardly surprising given that skill level is a function of focused improvement, and the cost/availability of quality seat time multiplies that rate.

Since I don't have any personal experience, I won't pretend to know everything about karting. Are power/weight classifications not a thing?

 

[agent00f]

Is the cost for a car track day more or less than a bike? Bike averages $150 a day here during summer + gate. Kart track is $30-40 usually and mx track is a little bit cheaper than kart.

Around here about double the cost, though I suspect some of that has to do with the somewhat more posh german car clubs.

 

[agent00f]

Since I don't have any personal experience, I won't pretend to know everything about karting. Are power/weight classifications not a thing?

Generally karts are spec-ish racers, with some weight added to equalize driver size. The racing tends to be divided more along driver skill than wallet size due to that plus relative affordability.

At the track I go to the most for example they have "amateur" and "pro" leagues, though that's somewhat optimistically named since amateur mostly means enthusiastic but not terribly srs, and pro isn't exactly paid driver. But if we're using some kind of Elo-like rating/classification which some tracks mimic in whatever way, amateur is scattered around 1500 and the pro is consistently closer to 2k which is a rather solid amateur level. In contrast, with cars driver skill tends to be all over the place, and it's much less common to see people who have 2k level of control and tidiness.

 

[jlee]

Generally karts are spec-ish racers, with some weight added to equalize driver size. The racing tends to be divided more along driver skill than wallet size due to that plus relative affordability.

At the track I go to the most for example they have "amateur" and "pro" leagues, though that's somewhat optimistically named since amateur mostly means enthusiastic but not terribly srs, and pro isn't exactly paid driver. But if we're using some kind of Elo-like rating/classification which some tracks mimic in whatever way, amateur is scattered around 1500 and the pro is consistently closer to 2k which is a rather solid amateur level. In contrast, with cars driver skill tends to be all over the place, and it's much less common to see people who have 2k level of control and tidiness.

I thought you didn't race cars, so I'm confused as to how you obtained this knowledge. Deliberately talking down on an entire group of people with which to my knowledge you have no direct experience is somewhat off-putting.

If your only experience with automotive "racing" is one HPDE, then I see how you have this perspective.

 

[agent00f]

I thought you didn't race cars, so I'm confused as to how you obtained this knowledge. Deliberately talking down on an entire group of people with which to my knowledge you have no direct experience is somewhat off-putting.

If your only experience with automotive "racing" is one HPDE, then I see how you have this perspective.

The scattering of skill level in cars continues well past hpde's. It's inherently a sport where people need to buy in (eg this thread), which ensures the talent pool is not very deep.

 

[JCH13]

The scattering of skill level in cars continues well past hpde's. It's inherently a sport where people need to buy in (eg this thread), which ensures the talent pool is not very deep.

There you go making unsubstantiated claims again. Would love to see data to prove your point.

 

[agent00f]

There you go making unsubstantiated claims again. Would love to see data to prove your point.

You can estimate the amount of funds & effort necessary for similar level of improvement with cars, and take what you know of the racing scene/events then ponder how deep/wide that pool is.

Anyone who's competed at much of anything should be aware of the competitive commitment/environment needed to get to decent levels.

 

[JCH13]

I can. I have. I considered lemons to be a very cost-effective way to get competitive driving time. The last race I participated in had the top 20 teams of 107 within 10% of the laps of the leader after 14 hours, with the top 3 teams only a few laps apart. Hell, one of the races I drove in saw 1st and 2nd split by *when* they finished their last lap, and that's after 14 hours of racing. Not 10-20 minutes, like a Kart race. To state that Lemons/junker racing isn't competitive is laughable and only serves to demonstrate your ignorance.

For my first real race, in Chump Car, I bought $1k in safety gear, paid a $750 drivers fee on the team, bought a $100 competition license, showed up at the track and got 1 hour of practice time and 4 hours of racing time. So, for less than the cost OP has budgeted for the whole car I got 5 hours of seat time going wheel-to-wheel with ~100 other cars (not 3-15 like Kart). I spent little time prepping the car because that burden is spread across the team. I didn't have to work out the logistics of transporting anything other than myself. My fee covered fuel, brakes, tires, etc. After the race I am free and clear of maintenance costs on the vehicle, the team principals manage that and wrap everything into the driver's fee.

SFI safety gear is good for many years, so I've been able to drive in several other races for simply the drivers' fee and annual competition license. All said and done I've paid about $5,200 for around 24 hours of wheel-to-wheel racing time and had a blast doing it.

Equivalent time in Autox works out to costing $50/8min*24hr=$9k + helment + tires + fuel + brakes
Equivalent time in HPDE works out to $200/80min*24hours = $3.6k + many sets of tires, brakes, tanks of gas, and wear+tear
Karts cost on the order of $5k -12k depending on what tickles your fancy (as an unassembled kit cost), plus the same $1k in safety gear, plus track fees. Even if the Kart fees are significantly lower than full-size cars you'd have to do a lot of driving over a lot of years to see a return on investment per wheel time. It also appears that you don't get a ton of drive time per weekend, given the 10-20 minute length of most Kart stints, with 3-4 heats + 1 race.

And, frankly, if I'm going to drive at reckless speeds against other lunatics like myself I'd like to be inside of a metal box, not on top of it.

 

[rstrohkirch]

Guess I'm not following this thread closely enough as I'm confused on what's being argued about here. The OP said track time not racing. A used 125cc shifter kart will run you $2-3k just like a used track bike can be had for $2-3k no problem. You get around 3-4 hours of track time per $150ish on a bike and for mx/karts/supermoto you often see open days where you can ride/drive for 8 hours straight for like $30-40.

So for $5000, I could get roughly 30 hours in for a motorcycle and own the gear/bike plus that includes tires, gas and some brakes. For a kart/supermoto/mx at the same price point you could get double or triple the hours. That said, not everyone has kart tracks around, not everyone likes the lower speed and not everyone wants to ride a motorcycle. When the budget is small I think you should at least look at the alternatives.

 

[agent00f]

I can. I have. I considered lemons to be a very cost-effective way to get competitive driving time. The last race I participated in had the top 20 teams of 107 within 10% of the laps of the leader after 14 hours, with the top 3 teams only a few laps apart. Hell, one of the races I drove in saw 1st and 2nd split by *when* they finished their last lap, and that's after 14 hours of racing. Not 10-20 minutes, like a Kart race. To state that Lemons/junker racing isn't competitive is laughable and only serves to demonstrate your ignorance.

For my first real race, in Chump Car, I bought $1k in safety gear, paid a $750 drivers fee on the team, bought a $100 competition license, showed up at the track and got 1 hour of practice time and 4 hours of racing time. So, for less than the cost OP has budgeted for the whole car I got 5 hours of seat time going wheel-to-wheel with ~100 other cars (not 3-15 like Kart). I spent little time prepping the car because that burden is spread across the team. I didn't have to work out the logistics of transporting anything other than myself. My fee covered fuel, brakes, tires, etc. After the race I am free and clear of maintenance costs on the vehicle, the team principals manage that and wrap everything into the driver's fee.

SFI safety gear is good for many years, so I've been able to drive in several other races for simply the drivers' fee and annual competition license. All said and done I've paid about $5,200 for around 24 hours of wheel-to-wheel racing time and had a blast doing it.

Equivalent time in Autox works out to costing $50/8min*24hr=$9k + helment + tires + fuel + brakes
Equivalent time in HPDE works out to $200/80min*24hours = $3.6k + many sets of tires, brakes, tanks of gas, and wear+tear
Karts cost on the order of $5k -12k depending on what tickles your fancy (as an unassembled kit cost), plus the same $1k in safety gear, plus track fees. Even if the Kart fees are significantly lower than full-size cars you'd have to do a lot of driving over a lot of years to see a return on investment per wheel time. It also appears that you don't get a ton of drive time per weekend, given the 10-20 minute length of most Kart stints, with 3-4 heats + 1 race.

And, frankly, if I'm going to drive at reckless speeds against other lunatics like myself I'd like to be inside of a metal box, not on top of it.

Let's put it this way. The conviction displayed here is similar to someone convinced that playing ping pong with the riff raff at the y prepares them for the serious sport. There might even be a few guys there with equiv rating >1k, but to put it lightly the comedy hour on track makes it rather difficult to develop the various skills necessary to advance.

 

[MongGrel]

I'll agree with the Miata suggestions and leave it at that.

$2000 for one in decent shape might be a stretch though.

 

[MongGrel]

The 2017 Model is also up 5HP/5TQ over previous years and Car & Driver managed a 1/4mile in 14.8 seconds @ 95mph - 0 -100mph time is 16.3 seconds.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-subaru-brz-manual-test-review

Mustangs have horrible handling.

They are not track cars.

But a lot of twits driving 5.0s like to think otherwise.

You do not seem to know even vaguely what you are talking about, but I guess you might have changed from the mustang suggestion.

Is about like comparing the maneuverability of the space shuttle to an F-16.

Pardon me for ever comparing a Ford Mustang to the space shuttle.