Toyota passes Ford in U.S. sales in 2007

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
The fact that a lot of people do something does not make that something an intelligent decision.

So what are you saying? Are you supposed to be saying anything? How did Toyota surpass Ford for the first time in 75 years? You have no suggestions. All your suggesting is someone is putting a gun to the consumer's head "Buy a Toyota Now". Other's who have posted have suggested the obvious. Consumers who are buying Toyota over Ford are making an education decision based on the obvious unreliable history of Ford.

I am saying precisely what I said. The fact that millions of people do something does not automatically make that something an intelligent decision. In fact, the popularity of something has no bearing on that something's quality at all.

The only thing that more people buying Toyotas means is that more people are buying Toyotas. It does not mean that Toyotas are higher quality. It does not mean that Toyotas are lower quality.

Selling more of something does not prove superiority. VHS sold far more than Betamax. However, Betamax had higher video resolution (noticeably so) and vastly superior audio. Betamax was better, but it sold fewer units.

Likewise, selling more of something does not prove inferiority. The iPod is dominant in its sector because it has a great user interface and an online store that is superior to its competitors. It is better and it is selling more units.

Selling more of something only proves that it is selling more. There is precisely zero information about quality in sales figures, yet you offer them as "proof". You cannot do that. You must offer something else if you wish you prove your claims.

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Yes, just like almost everyone who buys a car. Very few people make a fully-reasoned decision when they buy a car. They simply buy based on their gut instinct. Buying a Toyota is not, in itself, stupid, but neither is buying a Ford.

I highly doubt this. For the average American the automobile is probably the most expensive one-time-purchase decision next to a house. You make it sound like people buy cars like they buy candy. I think this in this case the obvious staring you right in the face but you refuse to face the facts.

Ah, but people do buy cars the way they buy candy. They decide which cars they think are pretty, get a few pieces of anecdotal evidence from friends without digging into actual data, and test-drive a limited number of cars based on what they are looking for and the image they want to convey.

People really do make these decisions based on emotion. They are indeed large decisions, and the car does represent to most people either the largest (if they rent) or second-largest (if they own a home) expense. But people aren't purely logical about the overall cost of ownership. If they were, we'd all be driving Hyundais or Kias right now.

And, just for the record, I have never once actually disagreed with the premise that Toyotas are reliable vehicles. I have merely pointed out that you have done a woefully inadequate job of offering anything that even remotely resembles proof of your position.

ZV

 

[TimeKeeper]

Let's not go into who is to blame or which is better.

Quantity may not equal to quality, however, w/out quality one may not be able to achieve long-term quantity.

Instead point fingers, Big 3 should drop their attitude and re-eval their position and understand "why?" So, they can reclaim their "quantity" soon.

 

[MiataNC]

Where do you think "anecdotal evidence" comes from?

It comes from people who got shafted with Big 3 lemons telling their friends/family about the problems they endured, and it comes from Toyota and Honda owners telling their friends/family about how few problems they have had. Toyota isn't increasing it's sales because it's cars look prettier or come in better colors.

It may be all "anecdotal" but over time it adds up, and rising Toyota sales vs falling Ford/GM/Dodge sales is a clear indication of how much "truth" is in the anecdotes.

If Toyota has a quality problem (and recent reports seem to indicate some slipping as sales volumes increase), then they "anecdotal evidence" will add up, and over time they will stumble and fall like the Big3.

 

[desy]

Yep, worse POS I ever had was a 73 Toyota. It wouldn't discourage me from buying a Toyota today just as having a Chev as my best ever vehicle automatically buys my loyalty.

Even most home buying is impulse buying, I've spent more time picking out a shirt that I did looking over my first home and that is not uncommon statistically.

BTT
Every business cycles and I think Toyota has earned its place by giving people what they want, I also agree with its bad for the economy, that any foreign company prevails over a domestic, because no matter how you slice it, the domestics still employ way more people and have benefit to the economy more than a foreign one.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: TimeKeeper
Let's not go into who is to blame or which is better.

Quantity may not equal to quality, however, w/out quality one may not be able to achieve long-term quantity.

Instead point fingers, Big 3 should drop their attitude and re-eval their position and understand "why?" So, they can reclaim their "quantity" soon.

They HAVE. But the Big 3 have far too many hurdles to make their entire line ups class leading all at once. Trust me if the analyst can pick out the Big 3's flaws so can the Big 3. It takes time, resources, and patience to implement a turn around it just doesn't happen over night.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: steppinthrax
It's interesting though no one has anything nice to say about this in regards to toyota except the fact that it's some sort of anamoly. Ford is an American Car manufacture that have been manufacturing cars longer then Toyota. They in general have many many of America's first cars. Their name is family known in this country. But yet they are suffering on sales. Are you saying the 48,226 more people who bought toyota or even families that made the largest financial decision next to a house are stupid!!!!!!

You've got way too much emotonally invested in this. This is the like the 10th thread I've read of your where you are trying to bash American cars and exalt Toyota cars. Just an observation.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: dud
I am not surprised ...

What I am surprised about is that Consumer Reports recommends avoiding the Camry V6 because of falling quality.

And ironically recommends the Ford Fusion as one of the most reliable cars out there (CR claims that the 4 cylinder Ford Focus is more reliable than the 4 cylinder Toyota Camry).

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: TimeKeeper
Let's not go into who is to blame or which is better.

Quantity may not equal to quality, however, w/out quality one may not be able to achieve long-term quantity.

Instead point fingers, Big 3 should drop their attitude and re-eval their position and understand "why?" So, they can reclaim their "quantity" soon.

I think that is exactly what GM and Ford have been doing for the last 5+ years. GM has come out with a string of very strong cars/trucks and Ford has a few decent vehicles (especially the Fusion from a quality perspective). I think you'll only seem more quality products in the future. I've driven several toyotas ('93 Corolla, '92 Camry, 2005 Tacoma) and honestly feel like I would have no problem whatsoever driving a domestic next go-around.

 

[AdamK47]

This thread is fun.

 

[TimeKeeper]

Originally posted by: Ktulu


They HAVE. But the Big 3 have far too many hurdles to make their entire line ups class leading all at once. Trust me if the analyst can pick out the Big 3's flaws so can the Big 3. It takes time, resources, and patience to implement a turn around it just doesn't happen over night.

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying they aren't thinking. Like you said, "it just doesn't happen over night." Isn't your statement also indicate, Big3 didn't lose their spot over night?

We can no longer focus domestic market only. And we really should learn to accept some "bashing" like other manufactures. Accept the criticism and correct them!

From what I have seen, Toyota used to be the symbol of "junk" back in the 70s, in less than 30 years, they claim almost every title one can think of. I certainly hope we don't take more than a decade to admit our own failure.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: TimeKeeper

Originally posted by: Ktulu


They HAVE. But the Big 3 have far too many hurdles to make their entire line ups class leading all at once. Trust me if the analyst can pick out the Big 3's flaws so can the Big 3. It takes time, resources, and patience to implement a turn around it just doesn't happen over night.

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying they aren't thinking. Like you said, "it just doesn't happen over night." Isn't your statement also indicate, Big3 didn't lose their spot over night?

We can no longer focus domestic market only. And we really should learn to accept some "bashing" like other manufactures. Accept the criticism and correct them!

From what I have seen, Toyota used to be the symbol of "junk" back in the 70s, in less than 30 years, they claim almost every title one can think of. I certainly hope we don't take more than a decade to admit our own failure.

boy are you dense.

 

[TimeKeeper]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

boy are you dense.

hhaha.. just got little emotional there.

Because I was thinking when Lexus introduced their first LS400 sedan in 1989 at $35K, Caddy/ Lincoln and most people were literally bashing them as " Luxury wanna be".

In 20 years, Lexus LS priced at 70K goes head to head w/ Mercedes S class / BMW 7 series, and where is our Lincoln and Caddy?

No wonder I am depressed.....

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: TimeKeeper

Originally posted by: ElFenix

boy are you dense.

hhaha.. just got little emotional there.

Because I was thinking when Lexus introduced their first LS400 sedan in 1989 at $35K, Caddy/ Lincoln and most people were literally bashing them as " Luxury wanna be".

In 20 years, Lexus LS priced at 70K goes head to head w/ Mercedes S class / BMW 7 series, and where is our Lincoln and Caddy?

No wonder I am depressed.....

low volume luxury cars aren't going to turn around a problem like ford and GM. high volume reliable cars would. of course, the biggest problem is overcoming consumer perception that they are selling the same crap they did up until recently. anyway:

We can no longer focus domestic market only.

not sure what you mean by that, ford and GM both have large overseas presence. in fact, ford overseas generates a good profit each year. i'm guessing GM does the same.

And we really should learn to accept some "bashing" like other manufactures.

the US makes did. they know they had/have problems. they know what those problems are. they're attempting to fix them with much better models.

Accept the criticism and correct them!

fusion, malibu, cts, bueller, bueller?

I certainly hope we don't take more than a decade to admit our own failure.

well, they did take more than a decade, but they look like they're well on their way to fixing their problems.

you seem stuck in 1997.

 

[TimeKeeper]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: TimeKeeper

Originally posted by: ElFenix

boy are you dense.

hhaha.. just got little emotional there.

Because I was thinking when Lexus introduced their first LS400 sedan in 1989 at $35K, Caddy/ Lincoln and most people were literally bashing them as " Luxury wanna be".

In 20 years, Lexus LS priced at 70K goes head to head w/ Mercedes S class / BMW 7 series, and where is our Lincoln and Caddy?

No wonder I am depressed.....

low volume luxury cars aren't going to turn around a problem like ford and GM. high volume reliable cars would. of course, the biggest problem is overcoming consumer perception that they are selling the same crap they did up until recently. anyway:

We can no longer focus domestic market only.

not sure what you mean by that, ford and GM both have large overseas presence. in fact, ford overseas generates a good profit each year. i'm guessing GM does the same.

And we really should learn to accept some "bashing" like other manufactures.

the US makes did. they know they had/have problems. they know what those problems are. they're attempting to fix them with much better models.

Accept the criticism and correct them!

fusion, malibu, cts, bueller, bueller?

I certainly hope we don't take more than a decade to admit our own failure.

well, they did take more than a decade, but they look like they're well on their way to fixing their problems.

you seem stuck in 1997.

LOL..... this is exactly what I was trying say about "accepting".
And yes, I am old and dumb.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: MiataNC
Where do you think "anecdotal evidence" comes from?

It comes from people who got shafted with Big 3 lemons telling their friends/family about the problems they endured, and it comes from Toyota and Honda owners telling their friends/family about how few problems they have had. Toyota isn't increasing it's sales because it's cars look prettier or come in better colors.

It may be all "anecdotal" but over time it adds up, and rising Toyota sales vs falling Ford/GM/Dodge sales is a clear indication of how much "truth" is in the anecdotes.

If Toyota has a quality problem (and recent reports seem to indicate some slipping as sales volumes increase), then they "anecdotal evidence" will add up, and over time they will stumble and fall like the Big3.

It says nothing about how the cars are now. The "truth" of current car quality has nothing to do with current sales. Reputation is what is driving sales. While reputation may have a basis in truth (and in this case I believe strongly that it does), it is a trailing indicator, meaning that it lags behind reality, sometimes quite significantly so. The reputation of domestic automobiles is the result of problems in the 1980's and early-to-mid 1990's. Problems that have been, or are being, corrected, leaving current reputation divergent with the quality of vehicles that are in production now.

Current sales volume can be used to show that one company's reputation is better than another company's, but sales volume cannot be reliably used to gauge current quality levels as the OP attempts to do.

ZV

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: mariok2006

Originally posted by: steppinthrax
Good for Toyota. And after everyone trying to say Toyota's quality is going down the tubes.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22488803/

Even if their quality is going down the tubes, their sales won't necessarily follow. There are many that will never buy anything else.

Not true. I'd buy an Infiniti or Acura.

 

[thedarkwolf]

Granted Lincoln doesn't really have much interesting going on but Caddy is coming around. The CTS and XLR are both pretty sweet machines and get really sweet when you throw the V on the end.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Originally posted by: thedarkwolf
Granted Lincoln doesn't really have much interesting going on but Caddy is coming around. The CTS and XLR are both pretty sweet machines and get really sweet when you throw the V on the end.

The MKX and MKZ are excellent vehicles and their Town Car, while dated technology, is still the pinnacle of luxury riding (not necessarily driving).

 

[thedarkwolf]

The MKZ is nice with AWD and the 3.5l engine but the CTS is sweet and the CTS-V is freaking awsome. I guess some of thats just personal opinion though . I don't care at all for the MKX or town car.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: MiataNC
Where do you think "anecdotal evidence" comes from?

It comes from people who got shafted with Big 3 lemons telling their friends/family about the problems they endured, and it comes from Toyota and Honda owners telling their friends/family about how few problems they have had. Toyota isn't increasing it's sales because it's cars look prettier or come in better colors.

It may be all "anecdotal" but over time it adds up, and rising Toyota sales vs falling Ford/GM/Dodge sales is a clear indication of how much "truth" is in the anecdotes.

If Toyota has a quality problem (and recent reports seem to indicate some slipping as sales volumes increase), then they "anecdotal evidence" will add up, and over time they will stumble and fall like the Big3.

This zem guy can't read between the lines. Each time someone produces evidences indicating how imports are so much better (quality and reliability) he increases his standards for accepting such evidence. It's now to a point where it's unreasonable. Regardless, as to how ford and GM increased their quality it all boils down to who comes out first at the end of the day. And just like the beta, VHS example he gave VHS outsold beta which dissolved the other formats. Toyota wants to win as well as Ford. I'm sure Ford hates to see their sales below Toyota in 75 years. And they know how the public perceives this. In the end no one will give a shit about how good ford was quality wise v.s. Toyota. When Toyota is outselling ford every single year.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: MiataNC
Where do you think "anecdotal evidence" comes from?

It comes from people who got shafted with Big 3 lemons telling their friends/family about the problems they endured, and it comes from Toyota and Honda owners telling their friends/family about how few problems they have had. Toyota isn't increasing it's sales because it's cars look prettier or come in better colors.

It may be all "anecdotal" but over time it adds up, and rising Toyota sales vs falling Ford/GM/Dodge sales is a clear indication of how much "truth" is in the anecdotes.

If Toyota has a quality problem (and recent reports seem to indicate some slipping as sales volumes increase), then they "anecdotal evidence" will add up, and over time they will stumble and fall like the Big3.

This zem guy can't read between the lines. Each time someone produces evidences indicating how imports are so much better (quality and reliability) he increases his standards for accepting such evidence. It's now to a point where it's unreasonable. Regardless, as to how ford and GM increased their quality it all boils down to who comes out first at the end of the day. And just like the beta, VHS example he gave VHS outsold beta which dissolved the other formats. Toyota wants to win as well as Ford. I'm sure Ford hates to see their sales below Toyota in 75 years. And they know how the public perceives this. In the end no one will give a shit about how good ford was quality wise v.s. Toyota. When Toyota is outselling ford every single year.

All your "evidence" is based on sales figures. Sales != quality <period>. Please take the time to research and you'll find tons of current articles discussing Toyota's depreciating quality. I'd rather Ford or GM take a hit in sales and focus attention to quality than the other way around.

Google - Toyota quality

Just look at how many negative articles are on the first page regarding Toyota's quality.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: MiataNC
Where do you think "anecdotal evidence" comes from?

It comes from people who got shafted with Big 3 lemons telling their friends/family about the problems they endured, and it comes from Toyota and Honda owners telling their friends/family about how few problems they have had. Toyota isn't increasing it's sales because it's cars look prettier or come in better colors.

It may be all "anecdotal" but over time it adds up, and rising Toyota sales vs falling Ford/GM/Dodge sales is a clear indication of how much "truth" is in the anecdotes.

If Toyota has a quality problem (and recent reports seem to indicate some slipping as sales volumes increase), then they "anecdotal evidence" will add up, and over time they will stumble and fall like the Big3.

This zem guy can't read between the lines. Each time someone produces evidences indicating how imports are so much better (quality and reliability) he increases his standards for accepting such evidence. It's now to a point where it's unreasonable. Regardless, as to how ford and GM increased their quality it all boils down to who comes out first at the end of the day. And just like the beta, VHS example he gave VHS outsold beta which dissolved the other formats. Toyota wants to win as well as Ford. I'm sure Ford hates to see their sales below Toyota in 75 years. And they know how the public perceives this. In the end no one will give a shit about how good ford was quality wise v.s. Toyota. When Toyota is outselling ford every single year.

All your "evidence" is based on sales figures. Sales != quality <period>. Please take the time to research and you'll find tons of current articles discussing Toyota's depreciating quality. I'd rather Ford or GM take a hit in sales and focus attention to quality than the other way around.

Google - Toyota quality

Just look at how many negative articles are on the first page regarding Toyota's quality.

If you take any Automanufactures brand in Google it's bound to have some angry customers who want a payback. Wheather it's Mercedes, Ford, Nissan, Toyota etc...

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

toyota quality has been going down.
the camry, america's best selling sedan is the best example. poorly put together interior, cheap materials and suspect reliability.
i'd buy a fusion before a camry.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: MiataNC
Where do you think "anecdotal evidence" comes from?

It comes from people who got shafted with Big 3 lemons telling their friends/family about the problems they endured, and it comes from Toyota and Honda owners telling their friends/family about how few problems they have had. Toyota isn't increasing it's sales because it's cars look prettier or come in better colors.

It may be all "anecdotal" but over time it adds up, and rising Toyota sales vs falling Ford/GM/Dodge sales is a clear indication of how much "truth" is in the anecdotes.

If Toyota has a quality problem (and recent reports seem to indicate some slipping as sales volumes increase), then they "anecdotal evidence" will add up, and over time they will stumble and fall like the Big3.

This zem guy can't read between the lines. Each time someone produces evidences indicating how imports are so much better (quality and reliability) he increases his standards for accepting such evidence. It's now to a point where it's unreasonable. Regardless, as to how ford and GM increased their quality it all boils down to who comes out first at the end of the day. And just like the beta, VHS example he gave VHS outsold beta which dissolved the other formats. Toyota wants to win as well as Ford. I'm sure Ford hates to see their sales below Toyota in 75 years. And they know how the public perceives this. In the end no one will give a shit about how good ford was quality wise v.s. Toyota. When Toyota is outselling ford every single year.

All your "evidence" is based on sales figures. Sales != quality <period>. Please take the time to research and you'll find tons of current articles discussing Toyota's depreciating quality. I'd rather Ford or GM take a hit in sales and focus attention to quality than the other way around.

Google - Toyota quality

Just look at how many negative articles are on the first page regarding Toyota's quality.

If you take any Automanufactures brand in Google it's bound to have some angry customers who want a payback. Wheather it's Mercedes, Ford, Nissan, Toyota etc...

Um....These are ARTICLES not angry posts on some message board.

 

[MiataNC]

Quality drives sales and more importantly it drives repeat sales.

If quality didn't matter, then the Big3 would have retained all of the customers that have switched to Imports over the past 30-40 years. It's as simple as that.