Tough Morality Question: Is It Right For Illegal Aliens to...

[Queasy]

Come to the U.S. and take advantage of our medical care at the expense of others? Most recent example is the case of the girl who had the wrong organs transplanted. Her mother paid $5000 to sneak her across the border and made their way to Duke University to get the transplant. Somehow, she ended up at the top of the list to receive the transplant.

I'm divided on this issue. I sympathize with the plight of people like this but at the same time, they are breaking some hospitals with unrecoverable costs that make it difficult for everybody else.

Link to Michelle Malkin opinion article

 

[Ornery]

I've been wondering if she was legal or not... should have known!

No doubt the family will be wealthy beyond their wildest dreams after they've taken a grand tour through our judicial system, and you KNOW they will!

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Queasy
I'm divided on this issue. I sympathize with the plight of people like this but at the same time, they are breaking some hospitals with unrecoverable costs that make it difficult for everybody else.

Link to Michelle Malkin opinion article

How can you be $#%$# divided on the issue when, according to the column you linked, behavior such as that exhibited by the Santillan family will result in reduced/eliminated medical care for everyone else? From the column you linked:

The costs of illegal alien health care are crippling hospitals across the country. In North Carolina, where Santillan's family has settled, a Medicaid emergency services program averages 221 new cases every month involving immigrants, many of them illegal, at a cost of about $32 million. As The Washington Times reported recently, dozens of hospitals in the 28 counties along the U.S.-Mexico border in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California have either closed their doors or face bankruptcy because of losses caused by uncompensated care given to illegal immigrants.

While any decent human being can sympathize with a family wanting to save their daughter, that doesn't give them the right to place huge costs on everyone else, costs which will severely limit and/or terminate other people's opportunities to receive necessary health care. This is the very problem with liberalism - a refusal to admit that life involves difficult, unpleasant decisions, especially regarding such things as the allocation of limited resources. We simply cannot afford for everyone to receive 'free', high quality health care treatment.

 

[XZeroII]

It's not that hard of a question for me. NO. I am a legal resident of this country and if I need medical care, I should be in line before someone who is here illegally. We should not be penalized, hospitals should not be penalized because Mexico and other countries can't take care of their own. It's regrettable to have to turn away someone that you could help treat, but look at what has happened. Hospitals going bankrupt and closing, huge costs to hospitals, that cost gets passed on to insurance companies who pay for your treatment, your premiums go up because health care costs are increasing, you complain. Each country should be responsible for their own. It's sad, but it's the only way it works. The US can't be the free clinic for the world.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Queasy
I'm divided on this issue. I sympathize with the plight of people like this but at the same time, they are breaking some hospitals with unrecoverable costs that make it difficult for everybody else.

Link to Michelle Malkin opinion article

How can you be $#%$# divided on the issue when, according to the column you linked, behavior such as that exhibited by the Santillan family will result in reduced/eliminated medical care for everyone else?

I'm $#%$#ing divided because in cases like the girl that had the bad transplant, the medical care in her own country is so piss-poor that her family had no choice but to come to the U.S. illegally just so she would have a chance to live. I sympathize with them and hate that something like that happens. But, like I already said, I also realize the reality that free health care to illegals is breaking our medical care system, raising our medical costs, and running doctors and hospitals out of business.

It would be easy for me to turn away someone who had a cold or flu or wanted a sex change operation but it would tear at my heart to tell someone who was almost certain to die that you can't receive medical care.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Queasy
I'm divided on this issue. I sympathize with the plight of people like this but at the same time, they are breaking some hospitals with unrecoverable costs that make it difficult for everybody else.

Link to Michelle Malkin opinion article

How can you be $#%$# divided on the issue when, according to the column you linked, behavior such as that exhibited by the Santillan family will result in reduced/eliminated medical care for everyone else?

I'm $#%$#ing divided because in cases like the girl that had the bad transplant, the medical care in her own country is so piss-poor that her family had no choice but to come to the U.S. illegally just so she would have a chance to live. I sympathize with them and hate that something like that happens. But, like I already said, I also realize the reality that free health care to illegals is breaking our medical care system, raising our medical costs, and running doctors and hospitals out of business.

It would be easy for me to turn away someone who had a cold or flu or wanted a sex change operation but it would tear at my heart to tell someone who was almost certain to die that you can't receive medical care.

Sorry if my original tone sounded harsh. I don't regret what I said, but perhaps how I said it. Anyway, I certainly appreciate that the girl's plight tears at your heart, as it does mine, even if we both agree that in this imperfect world, some poor people requiring expensive medical care must be turned away. If you did NOT sympathize with her and her parents' situation, I'd wonder if you had a heart at all.

Before this thread becomes too focused on illegals, Americans should remember that health care costs are mostly being driven up by legal residents consuming health care services in excess of our ability/willingness to pay for them. Americans generally have very unhealthy lifestyles, and it isn't necessarily illegals alone driving up the costs, especially end-of-life treatment costs.

 

[Down4U]

I'm not an alien so I'm probably not biased on this subject. Frankly, health care has come a long way, from medical institutions straight up denying any medical attention because your HMO won't cover it to hospitals at least admitting anyone with an ailment and in need of assistance. It is a given fact, there is plenty of money running behind the medical insurance industry. We have doctors clocking six figures for heart surgery. Heart disease being one of the top killers amongst Americans, I doubt that situations like illegal aliens soliciting or otherwise obtaining medical attention at the expense of tax payers is hardly adding to the troubles that the US is faced with. Whenever there's an issue in which politics is involved, and obviously health care is one of them, the rich man never feels the pinch when the noose gets tightened, only the middle class working tax payer always gets the hit. On top of that, the middle class working person gets hit again from the low income families as the government subsidizes the state and federal help they get from our tax dollars. I know in certain cases we're subsidizing families that have members that can but refuse to work. It must be real good to live off someone else's money.

Bottom line, being humanitarian is always the right thing to do. That is what America is and should be about, and is what makes America a great place to live in.

 

[Amused]

Ya know, if our healthcare system sucks so bad, why do people from all over the world come here to take advantage of it... both rich AND poor????

 

[StageLeft]

No it's not right. Hospital resources are finite and medical care given to somebody not paying taxes is medical care not given to somebody who is. You pay taxes you have a right to that care as long as medical resources are finite.

 

[StageLeft]

In my area here recently a building was constructed/renovated and now serves as a meeting place for Mexicans where they are given donuts and coffee. It was funded with tax dollars and many/most of these immigrants are illegal. It's a commonly known fact and all over the news recently, especially since tax dollars went towards this building. So these illegals now have a meeting place and consumables as well.

If I was an American I'd be really pissed at the situation you guys have with illegal immigrants. I mean it's just absolutely ridiculous. A building and coffee and donuts to people who will get paid under the table to do yard work is one thing, but crippling hospitals because they are giving attention to people who shouldn't be in the US in the first place. Man I'm surprised Americans aren't more pissed!

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Why is this even in question!?

FVCK NO it's not right for them to come steal my money --which is, in effect, what they're doing.


:|

Don't freaking get me started.

 

[Nitemare]

I don't mind doctors and hospitals doing it pro bono but not at tax payers expense. You also should not be able to sue someone who is doing something for free either. If this starts happening alot of humanitarians are going to be giving a big FrckU when asked to do a favor.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
In my area here recently a building was constructed/renovated and now serves as a meeting place for Mexicans where they are given donuts and coffee. It was funded with tax dollars and many/most of these immigrants are illegal. It's a commonly known fact and all over the news recently, especially since tax dollars went towards this building. So these illegals now have a meeting place and consumables as well.

If I was an American I'd be really pissed at the situation you guys have with illegal immigrants. I mean it's just absolutely ridiculous. A building and coffee and donuts to people who will get paid under the table to do yard work is one thing, but crippling hospitals because they are giving attention to people who shouldn't be in the US in the first place. Man I'm surprised Americans aren't more pissed!

People are put up with it so they can get someone to mow their lawn in the summertime heat for $5. And if you mention you are pissed about the illegal immigration problem in the U.S. you are branded a racist. I am constantly reminded that I am only a second generation American. But when my grandparents came here in the 40's they did not come to take advantage of America's welfare, they came to become an American citizen and contribute. Yes the illegal immigration problems pisses me off.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: axiom

Originally posted by: Nitemare
I don't mind doctors and hospitals doing it pro bono but not at tax payers expense. You also should not be able to sue someone who is doing something for free either. If this starts happening alot of humanitarians are going to be giving a big FrckU when asked to do a favor.

Providing healthcare for illegals through privately funded sources is fine. Pro-Bono work is already applied here. Using public money is completely wrong. This is money that people don't have much of say in how it is spent. Private funding is different though. If you contribute you can contribute with explicit desires that it go to certain people, ie. Illegal immigrants.

The payment issue is more complicated than that - generally, hospitals are legally required to provide services (at least emergency services) first, and inquire about payment later. If a poor person is unable to pay, the costs are just shifted to the public via higher prices collected from those who can pay, so you end up paying for it anyway, one way or the other. I used to work in a hospital, and the billing people were required to put down "self-pay" for anyone without insurance or significant assets. Of course, the vast majority of those people never paid, and the hospital director used to joke that "self-pay" really meant "no pay".

 

[Triumph]

I don't dispute that illegals need humanitarian health care just like everyone else; We're all human, and we all deserve equal treatment. But that brings me to my next point: Since each individual is equally worthy of treatment just by nature of being human, you cannot say, "We had to do this to save this immigrants life," because what you have done is taken away the chances at life of another human being. You have effectively stated "This immigrants life is worth more than this American citizens life." And that's just wrong, because no one has the ability to make that determination.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: axiom

Originally posted by: Nitemare
I don't mind doctors and hospitals doing it pro bono but not at tax payers expense. You also should not be able to sue someone who is doing something for free either. If this starts happening alot of humanitarians are going to be giving a big FrckU when asked to do a favor.

Providing healthcare for illegals through privately funded sources is fine. Pro-Bono work is already applied here. Using public money is completely wrong. This is money that people don't have much of say in how it is spent. Private funding is different though. If you contribute you can contribute with explicit desires that it go to certain people, ie. Illegal immigrants.

The payment issue is more complicated than that - generally, hospitals are legally required to provide services (at least emergency services) first, and inquire about payment later. If a poor person is unable to pay, the costs are just shifted to the public via higher prices collected from those who can pay, so you end up paying for it anyway, one way or the other. I used to work in a hospital, and the billing people were required to put down "self-pay" for anyone without insurance or significant assets. Of course, the vast majority of those people never paid, and the hospital director used to joke that "self-pay" really meant "no pay".

Yep, and hospitals can not inquire about a patient's immigration status either.

 

[rufruf44]

Originally posted by: rudder


People are put up with it so they can get someone to mow their lawn in the summertime heat for $5. And if you mention you are pissed about the illegal immigration problem in the U.S. you are branded a racist.

Bingo, as well as being called a dozen other names.
Unfortunately, the politicians are too afraid to lose the support or anger specific minority group to do anything about the immigration laws. And when they do come out with something like the Special Registration, it only punish the legal aliens with more restriction and obligation, while in the same time admitting how piss poor organization the INS is, and do nothing to stop the steam of illegal immigration.

 

[Pepsei]

It's not right. I'd let them rot. (ok, that's kinda strong, but saying not allowing them to take advantage of our "free care" is same as letting them rot)

but some organ donor network have policies of only allowing 5% of all transplants be non-US citizens.

Is it still taking advantage of the health care here if the said person's origin country have free and better medical cares? Just wondering.

 

[rufruf44]

Originally posted by: axiom
I hope that the Homeland Security Department actually addresses these problems. This new hondo billion dollar agency better do something for the Homeland.

Well, I just hope Ridge is a better man than Asschroft. As for the Homeland Security themselves, I've a feeling they'll be nothing more than a gloated version of INS....

 

[AntaresVI]

Originally posted by: rufruf44

Originally posted by: axiom
I hope that the Homeland Security Department actually addresses these problems. This new hondo billion dollar agency better do something for the Homeland.

Well, I just hope Ridge is a better man than Asschroft. As for the Homeland Security themselves, I've a feeling they'll be nothing more than a gloated version of INS....

gloated or bloated?

We got rid of Ridge for Rendell...

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Down4U
Bottom line, being humanitarian is always the right thing to do. That is what America is and should be about, and is what makes America a great place to live in.

And soon there won't be an American health care system to use legally or illegally, if we listen to people like you.

 

[spacelord]

if they sneak across and use our tax dollars and abuse our health care system to get medical care... rip out the stitches and organs, and throw their sorry asses back across the border.
tough crap. no freebies.

if they sneak across with required money, get medical attention, then leave. who cares.

 

[LeeTJ]

There is no division. ILLEGAL ALIENS SHOULD HAVE NO LEGAL RIGHTS.

It's not a humanity issue it's a legal issue.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Queasy
I'm divided on this issue. I sympathize with the plight of people like this but at the same time, they are breaking some hospitals with unrecoverable costs that make it difficult for everybody else.

Link to Michelle Malkin opinion article

How can you be $#%$# divided on the issue when, according to the column you linked, behavior such as that exhibited by the Santillan family will result in reduced/eliminated medical care for everyone else?

I'm $#%$#ing divided because in cases like the girl that had the bad transplant, the medical care in her own country is so piss-poor that her family had no choice but to come to the U.S. illegally just so she would have a chance to live. I sympathize with them and hate that something like that happens. But, like I already said, I also realize the reality that free health care to illegals is breaking our medical care system, raising our medical costs, and running doctors and hospitals out of business.

It would be easy for me to turn away someone who had a cold or flu or wanted a sex change operation but it would tear at my heart to tell someone who was almost certain to die that you can't receive medical care.

Sorry if my original tone sounded harsh. I don't regret what I said, but perhaps how I said it. Anyway, I certainly appreciate that the girl's plight tears at your heart, as it does mine, even if we both agree that in this imperfect world, some poor people requiring expensive medical care must be turned away. If you did NOT sympathize with her and her parents' situation, I'd wonder if you had a heart at all.

Before this thread becomes too focused on illegals, Americans should remember that health care costs are mostly being driven up by legal residents consuming health care services in excess of our ability/willingness to pay for them. Americans generally have very unhealthy lifestyles, and it isn't necessarily illegals alone driving up the costs, especially end-of-life treatment costs.

OF course it's not just ILLEGALS alone, but why should we be burdened with that??

 

[Amused]

Ya know, if we ended the socialization of our healthcare system, we wouldn't even be discussing this... and illegal aliens would have to rely on charity instead of picking our pockets.