"Tom Brady prefer his balls to feel a certain way" - balls underinflated

[Capt Caveman]

ohhhhhhhhhh Snapple!

You are bringing science and math in.. how is unfrozen caveman lawyer going to understand this strange world we now live in.

Huh? I'm the one that's been posting scientific evidence and you're the one post inacurrate information. You're the one that can't seem to read, comprehend and understand any of this. But keep on faking it!

 

[SP33Demon]

Well the lack of critical thinking would have to be on your end in this circumstance. You are missing the fact that the balls sat in the complex for 2.5 after being checked by the Refs.

So..
The Refs checked the balls and they were all between 12.5 and 13.5 PSI. The balls sat in the complex for at least 2.5 hours before the game began.
<snip>

At least get the facts right. The balls were checked 2 hours and 15 minutes before the game, not "2.5". So correction: You're an engineer that lacks reading comprehension.
http://espn.go.com/boston/story/_/page/reissmailbagweek0120/nfl-needs-defuse-deflate-gate

Also, it needs to be said that it would behoove the ballboy to overinflate the Indy balls since it would put them at a disadvantage. It's very possible that he underinflated NE balls and consequently overinflated Indy's in the bathroom.

 

[SP33Demon]

http://www.csnne.com/blog/patriots-...uchdown-play-was-illegal?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

Now it's just not "the biased Patriot hating" Tony Dungy complaining of the illegal formations of the Patriots, the NFL is making official statements now.



Sure the Patriots didn't need the illegal formations to beat the Colts, but they absolutely needed the illegal formations to win against the Ravens.

"Maybe those guys got to study the rule book and figure it out. We obviously knew what we were doing"

So the NFL knew all this time and finally admits that the Pats cheated, even on a touchdown play in only the AFC CG.

<"There was an issue on that play where on the previous play, [Cameron] Fleming had reported as an eligible player," Blandino said. "And on the Solder touchdown he went back to playing an ineligible position. That&#8217;s illegal. That&#8217;s an illegal substitution. So that&#8217;s something we discussed with the crew. Bill [Belichick] was made aware of it. So we&#8217;re going to be looking for that, make sure we follow the proper mechanics so that doesn&#8217;t happen again."

For Fleming to go from an eligible player to an ineligible player, by rule, he would have had to sit out one play (unless there was a timeout, a penalty, or it was the end of a quarter) before returning to the field."
>

Holy shit, where does the NFL get these refs? hahaha. What a shitshow. I would love to see this happen in the Super Bowl, on a TD that decides the game and have the refs miss it. Who wants to watch a sport where the refs don't know the rules, ugh. Shitshow.

 

[CZroe]

Well the lack of critical thinking would have to be on your end in this circumstance. You are missing the fact that the balls sat in the complex for 2.5 after being checked by the Refs.

So..
The Refs checked the balls and they were all between 12.5 and 13.5 PSI. The balls sat in the complex for at least 2.5 hours before the game began. If the Colts balls had been at 13.5 PSI because of initially being inflated in cold weather, they would have inflated due to the temperature inside and outside the ball reaching equilibrium which would be the temperature inside the complex. If they were 13.5 as you stated the colts like the ball it would have inflated past the 13.5 PSI once the air warmed up. Thus being overinflated. (Same concept of pumping hot air into the ball to make an underinflated ball legal at ball check in). Agree or Disagree?

The balls deflated by an average of 1.8 PSI (HeadSmart Labs) due to the rain and cold. Unless the NFL let the balls reach equilibrium inside then the Colts balls were either overinflated to stay in the range or somewhat underinflated as well.

Math -

Based on the HeadSmart Labs, the average PSI drop was 1.8 PSI

13.5 PSI - 1.8 PSI = 11.7 PSI
11.7 PSI < 12.5 PSI (the low range of acceptable ball PSI)

So, tell me how the Colts balls were not under the range or not initially overinflated if the Refs didn't let the balls reach equilibrium inside the Complex before testing.

Disclaimer: I'm an Engineer so rely on math and science. So, the only facts I trust are the calculated numbers people have put out on PSI drops due to ideal gas law.

"Math," indeed. You said yourself: they sat for 2.5 hours AFTER being checked (though you meant 2.25). They obviously were NOT overinflated when checked. Even if the pressure increased out of spec after being checked, they would have deflated back into spec when taken outside and played for the first half. The 2.25 hours they sat inside changes nothing. What matters is that they didn't have the same point of reference to start because the some balls were hotter than others WHEN THEY WERE CHECKED.

 

[CZroe]

Likely filled to spec.. I'll file that under ASSumption

Brain has tone.. I got a lock.. FIRE!!! it's a hit!

"Likely" explains how it could happen. "Couldn't possibly be within spec because I ignored possible factors" is an incorrect ASSumption about why it COULDN'T happen. There's a very big difference. Concluding that it isn't possible is factually wrong.

 

[emperus]

So the NFL knew all this time and finally admits that the Pats cheated, even on a touchdown play in only the AFC CG.

<"There was an issue on that play where on the previous play, [Cameron] Fleming had reported as an eligible player," Blandino said. "And on the Solder touchdown he went back to playing an ineligible position. That’s illegal. That’s an illegal substitution. So that’s something we discussed with the crew. Bill [Belichick] was made aware of it. So we’re going to be looking for that, make sure we follow the proper mechanics so that doesn’t happen again."

For Fleming to go from an eligible player to an ineligible player, by rule, he would have had to sit out one play (unless there was a timeout, a penalty, or it was the end of a quarter) before returning to the field."
>

Holy shit, where does the NFL get these refs? hahaha. What a shitshow. I would love to see this happen in the Super Bowl, on a TD that decides the game and have the refs miss it. Who wants to watch a sport where the refs don't know the rules, ugh. Shitshow.

You are so biased it's affecting your judgment. You are acting like the Refs are infallible. On every play the refs miss something. That's why I find all this talk about cheating laughable. In the NFL all the players try to play on the edge of the rules. If they didn't players would be cognizant of holding calls, pass interference calls and all other infractions. If fact when a player doesn't make a catch instead of pretending they did, they would just be honest and tell the refs they did not.

 

[emperus]

"Math," indeed. You said yourself: they sat for 2.5 hours AFTER being checked (though you meant 2.25). They obviously were NOT overinflated when checked. Even if the pressure increased out of spec after being checked, they would have deflated back into spec when taken outside and played for the first half. The 2.25 hours they sat inside changes nothing. What matters is that they didn't have the same point of reference to start because the some balls were hotter than others WHEN THEY WERE CHECKED.

Honestly I'm not sure what your post means.

My argument is that the Colts balls could have been overinflated relative to the temperature the balls should have been at when measured by the officials.

Yes, the timing doesn't matter (I wanted to make it easier to see the issue in your argument that's why I added the timing). The issue is purely having a standard to gauge whether a ball is over-inflated or underinflated. And I think a fair assumption is that a ball should be in spec when it reaches equilibrium(temperature and atmospheric pressure) in the room that the refs measure the balls (which I assume would be around 75 degrees). So if a team cools the ball or the air in the ball and pumps it to within spec, but after reaching equilibrium in the room the refs measure the ball the ball is over spec. It is in fact over inflated. Without a common point of reference in terms of pressure and temperature, how do we even begin to discuss what overinflated or underinflated means? As at some temp and some atmospheric pressure the same ball can be in spec, over inflated, or underinflated.

Do you agree?

 

[Phokus]

So the NFL knew all this time and finally admits that the Pats cheated, even on a touchdown play in only the AFC CG.

<"There was an issue on that play where on the previous play, [Cameron] Fleming had reported as an eligible player," Blandino said. "And on the Solder touchdown he went back to playing an ineligible position. That’s illegal. That’s an illegal substitution. So that’s something we discussed with the crew. Bill [Belichick] was made aware of it. So we’re going to be looking for that, make sure we follow the proper mechanics so that doesn’t happen again."

For Fleming to go from an eligible player to an ineligible player, by rule, he would have had to sit out one play (unless there was a timeout, a penalty, or it was the end of a quarter) before returning to the field."
>

Holy shit, where does the NFL get these refs? hahaha. What a shitshow. I would love to see this happen in the Super Bowl, on a TD that decides the game and have the refs miss it. Who wants to watch a sport where the refs don't know the rules, ugh. Shitshow.

The pats 'cheated' because the refs forgot to throw a flag? You are out of your god damned mind. I've seen grasping at straws before but in this case, the straws are in Foxboro and you're in France trying to reach reaaaaallly fucking hard. So every time the refs forget to throw a flag for 12 men on the field, illegal shifts, PI, etc., that's 'cheating'? You are stupid as hell

 

[purbeast0]

was there even any conclusive evidence that the refs actually checked the psi on the balls, like with a tool that was calibrated to check psi?

or did they just grab them and fondle and handle them (LOL) and squeeze them (LOL) and say "yeah, these feel okay"?

 

[CZroe]

Honestly I'm not sure what your post means.

My argument is that the Colts balls could have been overinflated relative to the temperature the balls should have been at when measured by the officials.

Yes, the timing doesn't matter (I wanted to make it easier to see the issue in your argument that's why I added the timing). The issue is purely having a standard to gauge whether a ball is over-inflated or underinflated. And I think a fair assumption is that a ball should be in spec when it reaches equilibrium(temperature and atmospheric pressure) in the room that the refs measure the balls (which I assume would be around 75 degrees). So if a team cools the ball or the air in the ball and pumps it to within spec, but after reaching equilibrium in the room the refs measure the ball the ball is over spec. It is in fact over inflated. Without a common point of reference in terms of pressure and temperature, how do we even begin to discuss what overinflated or underinflated means? As at some temp and some atmospheric pressure the same ball can be in spec, over inflated, or underinflated.

Do you agree?

Yes, but because we don't have equivalent starting points it is very possible for only the Pats' balls to fall out of spec despite all of them measuring within spec for both teams prior to the game (thus, not "over inflated").

 

[soulcougher73]

was there even any conclusive evidence that the refs actually checked the psi on the balls, like with a tool that was calibrated to check psi?

or did they just grab them and fondle and handle them (LOL) and squeeze them (LOL) and say "yeah, these feel okay"?

I dont follow this 100% but yeah was the psi tool even checked for accurate calibration afterwards. Was the same psi tool used on both teams or does each team provide those as well? Many question

 

[purbeast0]

I dont follow this 100% but yeah was the psi tool even checked for accurate calibration afterwards. Was the same psi tool used on both teams or does each team provide those as well? Many question

what is the process that the refs go through 2.25 hours before the game to say the balls are okay to play with.

do they use an actual calibration tool? or do they just say they are okay by the feel of the balls?

 

[Phokus]

was there even any conclusive evidence that the refs actually checked the psi on the balls, like with a tool that was calibrated to check psi?

or did they just grab them and fondle and handle them (LOL) and squeeze them (LOL) and say "yeah, these feel okay"?

There's not except for the ref's word. According to this ballboy, refs are lazy and usually just squeeze the balls and don't actually use the gauge:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/su...-boys-perspective-preparing-footballs-n290801

"I recall them having a pressure gauge in the locker room, but most often they just squeezed the balls, turned them over in their hands a few times each, and inspected the laces. I don't recall them ever rejecting one of our balls," he said.

The NFL is definitely more inclined to protect the refs than the pats because that would REALLY question the integrity of the game in the public's mind if the refs aren't doing their jobs.

 

[waggy]

There's not except for the ref's word. According to this ballboy, refs are lazy and usually just squeeze the balls and don't actually use the gauge:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/su...-boys-perspective-preparing-footballs-n290801



The NFL is definitely more inclined to protect the refs than the pats because that would REALLY question the integrity of the game in the public's mind if the refs aren't doing their jobs.

LOL oh shit. so the refs don't even check the damn balls? hahahahahaha

no wonder the pats tried to cheat. they knew they would get away with it LOL

 

[purbeast0]

LOL oh shit. so the refs don't even check the damn balls? hahahahahaha

no wonder the pats tried to cheat. they knew they would get away with it LOL

im willing to bet neither the refs nor the pats (nor any NFL team for that matter) knows the exact PSI of the balls at the start of the game, rather that they just felt "right" and that it isn't a big deal either way (and still isn't) but everyone wants to make a huge deal about nothing.

 

[TheSlamma]

Oh sweet irony!

Hilarious after all the whining about the Pats being unfairly persecuted based on questionable facts--when the only important fact is their balls were underinflated during the game--and yet have no problem making stuff up and accuse their opponents of cheating. Too rich!

Hint: it is a reported fact the Indy balls were within tolerance 2 hours before the game and at halftime. Which is an important element to the New England narrative that they filled their balls started off warmer and were filled indoors with warm air while the Indy balls were filled outdoors (I don't see it confirmed but it sounds like in a service shed).

Jim Irsay demands an apology! :awe:

Too funny how you deflect from the fact the Patsy balls were underinflated but it somehow becomes fact the Colts were cheating with overinflated balls when both measurements & the "conditions" where their balls were completely contradict the assertion.

Where is the popcorn? I already said I don't think the Pats deflated the ball (only prepped) but after all the convincing scientific arguments showing no needle was needed that if the ball boys breaks down and admits he did it SNL style With all the QBs having come forward admitting they deflated in the past it would be an absolute CIRCUS! Not fun for Pat fans but MUCH more interesting than Beast Mode refusing to talk with beat reports and then making pretty coin doing Skittles and Progressive commercials and doing hilarious Connan spots.

Tide come in, tide goes out, you can't explain that.

Holy spin zone batman

 

[TheSlamma]

Huh? I'm the one that's been posting scientific evidence and you're the one post inacurrate information. You're the one that can't seem to read, comprehend and understand any of this. But keep on faking it!

Hey if you had a wife that is what she would be doing.

 

[SP33Demon]

The pats 'cheated' because the refs forgot to throw a flag? You are out of your god damned mind. I've seen grasping at straws before but in this case, the straws are in Foxboro and you're in France trying to reach reaaaaallly fucking hard. So every time the refs forget to throw a flag for 12 men on the field, illegal shifts, PI, etc., that's 'cheating'? You are stupid as hell

You don't watch football if you don't know that every TD is reviewable. How the refs miss that a player who caught a TD is ineligible even after review is laughable at best. Also, nobody said the Pats 'cheated' on that play because nobody is dumb enough to call a play to an ineligible player. If anything the Pats didn't know the rules but lucky for them, the refs didn't either. Total shitshow. The blind leading the blind.

 

[Phokus]

You don't watch football if you don't know that every TD is reviewable. How the refs miss that a player who caught a TD is ineligible even after review is laughable at best. Also, nobody said the Pats 'cheated' on that play because nobody is dumb enough to call a play to an ineligible player. If anything the Pats didn't know the rules but lucky for them, the refs didn't either. Total shitshow. The blind leading the blind.

Dude, YOU said the pats cheated, are you retarded?

So the NFL knew all this time and finally admits that the Pats cheated, even on a touchdown play in only the AFC CG.

You're getting slapped around silly, just admit you irrationally hate the pats and give it up.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Hey if you had a wife that is what she would be doing.

Went from FUD to being lame. You're adding a lot to this conversation.

 

[Ban Bot]

So the NFL knew all this time and finally admits that the Pats cheated, even on a touchdown play in only the AFC CG.

I feel vindicated, too, after all the shout downs when I posted about this earlier (indeed the NFL now admits there was a penalty in the AFCCG) but I don't think it is fair to say NE cheated.

They committed a penalty, and illegal procedure/formation. It is a technically and should have been flagged. And like 12 men on the field I would think (? but don't know) review would catch it. Is it on the players or the refs when the refs allow a lot of holding? The NFC playoff games have been full of uncalled holding, even false starts, but is it cheating by the players or the refs failing to do their job? Even if BB intentionally converted the receiver's status without sitting out a play to confuse the opponent (which is dirty imo BUT I love the formations) this isn't too different from an illegal motion, hold, linemen too deep in their setback, etc. that are often overlooked by the referees.

I fully expect Browner to get a DPI, holding, and maybe illegal contact in the Super Bowl. Will that be cheating? Unless he is head hunting no. Heck, when he gets beat the best option IS DPI. That isn't dirty or cheating. The rules are only what are enforced.

The NFL has a stupid rule about fan noise--but it isn't enforced. You could say Seattle's fans are illegal but as the rule isn't enforced is it even a rule at that point?

On the other hand the previous defenses by others about Spygate is hilarious as, yes, other teams were taping but the NFL put out a warning. Anyone caught after the warning got exactly what they deserved. Shifting the blame to other teams and not taking accountability rubs a lot of people the wrong way. That said I thought Bill Belickick did a GREAT job of owning that last week and putting it behind them. Too bad more Pats fans wouldn't do the same.

 

[Anubis]

seems like we keep coming back to the fact that the NFL has no god damn idea what its doing

 

[dawheat]

Without caring either way, thought it was interesting that Drew Brees could call the weight exactly. QBs in the NFL are pretty amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNEM3WUfGjY

 

[Ban Bot]

seems like we keep coming back to the fact that the NFL has no god damn idea what its doing

I don't think this was ever in dispute! The way they handled the Ray Rice situations was pathetic. Seeing their out of whack penalties for attempts to injure players vs. stupid stuff (shoes, hats, gloves, not talking to the media) show their true concern. Which is fine, but them pretending to care about other things is what makes them look so bad.

Maybe we should flag and fine the NFL?

 

[emperus]

Yes, but because we don't have equivalent starting points it is very possible for only the Pats' balls to fall out of spec despite all of them measuring within spec for both teams prior to the game (thus, not "over inflated").

Yes, I made that point pages ago. My argument is technical in terms of your use of the word "over inflated". I believe whatever the PSI is when the balls reached a temperature of ~75 deg. is the correct PSI. And if the Colts balls were inflated in the cold (say at 50 deg.) then immediately measured by the refs for a 13.5 PSi, when the ball and the air inside the ball reached 75 deg. the PSI of that ball would be greater than 13.5 psi. Thus over inflated.