While I do think NE is going to win, crush is a strong word. I imagine some of their offense will be stifled and Wilson and co will put up some points. I just don't think they can keep the Pats down long enough to build a large enough lead, if they even get out ahead.
While I do think NE is going to win, crush is a strong word. I imagine some of their offense will be stifled and Wilson and co will put up some points. I just don't think they can keep the Pats down long enough to build a large enough lead, if they even get out ahead.
I have a question that dictates whether you feel New England cheated. Here is the question:
“Balls are inspect 2 hours and 15 minutes before kickoff. Is it cheating if the ball is prepared in a way to pass muster at this time knowing it has been prepared to be out of spec in a cold game?”
1—You won’t think this is cheating IF you think that this behavior is a grey area in the rules (i.e. balls only need meet spec during inspection) and thus a genius way to be within the rules of the game while gaining an advantage by being smarter. Go Pats!
2—You will think this is cheating IF you believe any overt attempt to result in the game ball being out of spec during gameplay, regardless of the inspected condition as the rules dictate the condition of the ball during play. Pats can die in a fire!
I doubt fans on either side will be convinced but looking at the rules it seems very clear (to me) the ball to be played with must be in a specific specification and the refs are obligated to remove out of spec balls during the game. If a ball goes flat or develops a bulge it must be removed so I don’t see how a ball “slowly deflating” and out of tolerance is a “legal ball.”
What is interesting, to me, is there is at least one NFL QB (Charlie Whitehurst) saying he also likes an underinflated ball and this has gone unnoticed (kicking the feet out of some of the arguments this was a fluke as no one ever noticed before). What is also interesting is if a player or team wanted to play underinflated balls they could easily present an acceptable ball within spec and get the under-spec result without direct ball tampering, just ball “preparation.” How so? The rules are very straight forward—and the very reason they would be easy to circumvent.
Ball Rules: http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/5_2013_Ball.pdf
The ball must be a specific brand, bladder, specific dimensions and shape (with 1/4inch tolerances), weight (14-15 ounces), and within a pressure range (12.5-13.5 PSI). Anything to circumvent playing with such a ball is a violation of the rule (and cheating.)
So if you are “Team B” with a ton of “Small Hand Sam” players and prefer a softer, underinflated ball, how do you go about bypassing “the rules” while passing referee muster? Simple:
The referees must inspect the ball 2 hours and 15 minutes before kickoff (Rule 2 section 2). This gives sufficient time, without tampering, to condition the ball. So you need to present a ball that can pass muster at this time but have characteristics to get the end result desired (underinflated). There are four obvious ways to get this result:
1—Fill a warm ball with warm air. For a cold weather game the gas laws of physics dictate that the cooled air in the ball will exert less pressure.
2—Reduce the elasticity of the ball. If you have ever overinflated a ball and stretched the leather you know the ball doesn’t “spring back” as well and gets mushy. You have worn out some of the natural elasticity of the leather. Heat (illegal on the sidelines), repeated and rapid over inflation, and rubbing are all acts that could “break in” the ball. This is a subtle impact but the reduction of the elasticity is essentially diminishing the external “pressure.” A more springy, elastic new ball will maintain more pressure (reducing volume) moreso than a soft ball that, when the gas volume cools, the rebound of the bladder won’t maintain as much pressure.
3—Introduce a minor gas bleed; ball nipples are prone to such.
4—Bribe the refs.
I don’t think New England was doing #3 or #4.
It is absolutely clear that Brady is very picky about his balls and New England has admitted to rubbing and it appears they fill their balls in a warmed area. The Patriots were doing #1 and #2.
The Patriots were presenting worn balls (“rubbed” as Bilechick said; Brady also went into detail how he likes his balls a very specific way) in warmed condition to play cold, outdoor games. These two conditions can result in a ball being 12.5psi at inspection, 2 hours and 15 minutes prior to kick off, but quickly losing pressure.
Is this cheating?
Is this fantastically smart gamesmanship?
“Balls are inspect 2 hours and 15 minutes before kickoff. Is it cheating if the ball is prepared in a way to pass muster at this time knowing it has been prepared to be out of spec in a cold game?”
1—You won’t think this is cheating IF you think that this behavior is a grey area in the rules (i.e. balls only need meet spec during inspection) and thus a genius way to be within the rules of the game while gaining an advantage by being smarter. Go Pats!
2—You will think this is cheating IF you believe any overt attempt to result in the game ball being out of spec during gameplay, regardless of the inspected condition as the rules dictate the condition of the ball during play. Pats can die in a fire!
I doubt fans on either side will be convinced but looking at the rules it seems very clear (to me) the ball to be played with must be in a specific specification and the refs are obligated to remove out of spec balls during the game. If a ball goes flat or develops a bulge it must be removed so I don’t see how a ball “slowly deflating” and out of tolerance is a “legal ball.”
What is interesting, to me, is there is at least one NFL QB (Charlie Whitehurst) saying he also likes an underinflated ball and this has gone unnoticed (kicking the feet out of some of the arguments this was a fluke as no one ever noticed before). What is also interesting is if a player or team wanted to play underinflated balls they could easily present an acceptable ball within spec and get the under-spec result without direct ball tampering, just ball “preparation.” How so? The rules are very straight forward—and the very reason they would be easy to circumvent.
Ball Rules: http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/5_2013_Ball.pdf
The ball must be a specific brand, bladder, specific dimensions and shape (with 1/4inch tolerances), weight (14-15 ounces), and within a pressure range (12.5-13.5 PSI). Anything to circumvent playing with such a ball is a violation of the rule (and cheating.)
So if you are “Team B” with a ton of “Small Hand Sam” players and prefer a softer, underinflated ball, how do you go about bypassing “the rules” while passing referee muster? Simple:
The referees must inspect the ball 2 hours and 15 minutes before kickoff (Rule 2 section 2). This gives sufficient time, without tampering, to condition the ball. So you need to present a ball that can pass muster at this time but have characteristics to get the end result desired (underinflated). There are four obvious ways to get this result:
1—Fill a warm ball with warm air. For a cold weather game the gas laws of physics dictate that the cooled air in the ball will exert less pressure.
2—Reduce the elasticity of the ball. If you have ever overinflated a ball and stretched the leather you know the ball doesn’t “spring back” as well and gets mushy. You have worn out some of the natural elasticity of the leather. Heat (illegal on the sidelines), repeated and rapid over inflation, and rubbing are all acts that could “break in” the ball. This is a subtle impact but the reduction of the elasticity is essentially diminishing the external “pressure.” A more springy, elastic new ball will maintain more pressure (reducing volume) moreso than a soft ball that, when the gas volume cools, the rebound of the bladder won’t maintain as much pressure.
3—Introduce a minor gas bleed; ball nipples are prone to such.
4—Bribe the refs.
I don’t think New England was doing #3 or #4.
It is absolutely clear that Brady is very picky about his balls and New England has admitted to rubbing and it appears they fill their balls in a warmed area. The Patriots were doing #1 and #2.
The Patriots were presenting worn balls (“rubbed” as Bilechick said; Brady also went into detail how he likes his balls a very specific way) in warmed condition to play cold, outdoor games. These two conditions can result in a ball being 12.5psi at inspection, 2 hours and 15 minutes prior to kick off, but quickly losing pressure.
Is this cheating?
Is this fantastically smart gamesmanship?
Fingolfin269
Lifer
- Feb 28, 2003
- 17,948
- 34
- 91
What will ever make this story die? If NE loses in the Super Bowl will it go away? Because if they win I'm afraid we'll be hearing about this every day until the draft.
dainthomas
Lifer
- Dec 7, 2004
- 14,963
- 3,951
- 136
IronWing
No Lifer
- Jul 20, 2001
- 73,633
- 35,413
- 136
The story of the Patriots cheating will never die as long as the return on a nickel is so good. :biggrin:Go take your armchair science 'theories' and shove them up your ass
I have to admit I would feel somewhat bad if Phokus stroked out.
Last edited by a moderator:
If the Patriots followed every rule and guideline, it is not cheating. Do fighters cutting to make weight "cheat"? They aren't 155lbs at the time of the fight. Is lining up an RB and having him declare himself, to the referee, ineligible cheating?
The Patriots, and quite a few other teams, likely understand that in cold weather, the ball will lose some PSI. So, they could assume that it would be "under spec" if it was inflated "to spec". That is not their problem, nor is it cheating. If the NFL wishing the ball to maintain a constant PSI within a range, they have to account for things like weather, water, and general stretching of the leather.
Do we even know if the circumstances surrounding the way balls are prepared is even changed in cold weather games? Do they, all year, inflate their balls to 12.5 PSI and rub them?
Now, we can argue Belichick is the picture of a rules lawyer, but that is simply because every other team isn't as good at it. You know damn well if another coach had thought up sending an RB out as ineligible and having him declare it to trick the defense, they'd have done it at least once. But, they didn't. And some are butthurt about it.
I don't think it is an issue of "smart" enough. I played Jr. High and High School football in the Seattle area and it was common to see unbalanced lines (e.g. T-C-G-G-T), extra linemen (T-T-G-C-G-T), and exotic formations like New England ran. I cannot speak for the entire US but I have to believe that if we saw this stuff in Jr football every coach and his mom knew about this. Maybe I am an oddity in that I had an NFL rulebook and loved creating plays and formations in Front Page Sports Football when I was a kid but I knew the formation rules inside and out--there is a lot of flexibility in the formation but you have to have 7 on the line, 4 off the line, the ends on each side are eligible receivers as well as all 4 players off the line. Having two split ends to the right of the field and the right tackle off the line would result in the tackle eligible (as long as his number of eligible or if he registers) and the farthest out end, while the second end in between on the line is ineligible and cannot go down field on a pass play. If I can recall the rules almost 20 years later I am sure NFL coaches know this.
But this is a case of unwritten rules and/or "minor league" style. On the second point this is no different from the Read Option, Wildcat, etc. Not something you would build your offense on in most cases but essentially a smart trick play. I don't know if this falls under the unwritten rules but the NFL has some (e.g. plowing into the other team's victory formation on a game that is over).
As a football geek (and a Hawk fan) I REALLY LIKE Bill doing the exotic formation. Totally legit and a great form of deception. Football is all about deception--motioning players, play action bootlegs, draws, counters, half back passes, reverses and end arounds, etc. The Wildcat, quasi-Wishbone Carolina runs, Read Option, fake field goals, drop kicks, surprise oneside kicks, etc. are all forms of deception. Totally legit and SMART. Throwing in an esoteric formation exception by New England is fantastically smart. 100% for it.
There is an issue with hurry up offenses and the requirements for allowing defenses to substitute. The NFL needs to sort that out. If I were a coach the obvious interim solution is to educate your players, especially if the report-time-to-snap is too small due to a hurry up offense: Coach your players that any player on the line inside the two outside ends is ineligible. Anyone off the line is eligible. End of Story.
(Side note: A number of teams should be flagged for having their lineman 1 yard off the line. This is an illegal formation and if teams are going to do exotic formations the letter of the rule must apply. The Rams did this in week 17 and it is a clear advantage in passing downs and an illegal formation.)
That said I am curious to see how the league responds to the new criticism (1/23) of the officiating, namely that on at least one play a player was allowed to revert back to eligible without leaving the field. I don't have time to verify myself but it is an interesting question (and a different criticism from 2 weeks ago the NFL said was irrelevant):
If true that is really not good and something the NFL needs to clarify and then watch for in the Super Bowl.
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SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
- 143
- 106
Terrific Tom claims he had his feelings hurt this week.
http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story...aside-deflategate-concentrate-super-bowl-xlix
Very similar to... Pats fans.
http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story...aside-deflategate-concentrate-super-bowl-xlix
Very similar to... Pats fans.
IronWing
No Lifer
- Jul 20, 2001
- 73,633
- 35,413
- 136
The problem is you are looking at this from the assumption that the Pats cheated. Imagine if the underinflated balls were due to purely weather and the the Pats didn't cheat. Do you then think it is fair that the team went through what they did this week knowing they have to play against Seattle? Or fair how many people have called Brady and Belichick a liar?
Um, last time I checked, balls were a very personal subject for most guys. Just speaking for myself, having my employer investigating my balls for proper size preparation, I'd also take that very personally.
dainthomas
Lifer
- Dec 7, 2004
- 14,963
- 3,951
- 136
Poor Tommy and his widdle feewings.
Such a narcissist.Is it fair how Chris Matthews was fined for shaking Lynch's hand? Is it possible that hurt his feelings AND his wallet? And he wasn't even alleged to have cheated.
I want to respond to the highlighted and ask a question below. But before that...
Well, first, I don't hate the Pats. Belicheck is one of the best coaches ever. He has handled a roster that wasn't always "great" by fantasy standards but found ways to win. Loved it when he would put Troy Brown (iirc) back as a DB. His outside the box thinking is fantastic. I don't like the Spygate stuff and to this day the fact he may (or may not) have taped a team's walkthrough disturbs me as a fan. But even including those footnotes Bill is a great coach. I really like Pete Carroll (wasn't sure about the hire but his first second won me over) but Bill is one of the top 3 coaches in the NFL right now and has been for 15 years.
And as much as Hawk fans love Wilson as the definition of "underrated" if you look that up in the dictionary there is a picture of Tom Terrific--a 6th rounder, slammed for being a check down system quarterback with game manager skill set. Much like Wilson, Brady never got enough credit from detractors and too much credit from others. And yet in a team sport Brady has been one of the top 10, maybe top 5, quarterbacks ever. I went from a Brady fan to meh after some of his off field stuff came to light (ditto Big Ben) but as a football player Tom is fantastic.
Because of their legacy of excellence I personally believe Seattle's "turning point" under Pete was the 2012 Patriot game. That game validated Wilson and the LOB. You don't "arrive" betting cream puffs. You have to beat the best to be the best and that is who Bill and Tom are. So mucho respect. That said...
Fair or unfair, many non-Pats fans "assume" the worst with the Pats because under the Kraft-Belichick-Brady era they have not only been accused of cheating but caught cheating after they were warned. That really sucks as a Pats fun because even when they are clean the combination of Bill's unlikable demeanor and history it is really hard to give him the benefit of the doubt. Especially since he is a control freak. BB went to great lengths discussing how he screws with balls to make it harder on players and Tom Brady went into detail about how he likes balls a very specific way (and was caught on tape saying he likes the underinflated balls in a different context, i.e. a hard Gronk spike).
Right or wrong, fair or unfair, the history of being caught cheating + obsessive/controlling detailed oriented nature of Bill and Tom makes it hard to believe they didn't put much thought into the game ball.
Why would any non-Pats fan give Bilechick benefit of the doubt?
Giving Bill benefit of the doubt (forgiving past indiscretions--which Bill paid dearly for--and ignoring unproven accusations of such--which there are far more UNPROVEN accusations tainting fan bias) there are other issues I think the NFL needs to look into.
1. The Colt's balls. I think physics tells us that a cool ball filled with cool air will decrease less in pressure when introduced into a cold environment than a warm ball with warm air. But the NFL needs to check on this to be certain. I think the Pats are AOK here. But this needs investigation as we are assuming a lot.
2. Review of past accusations of underinflated balls. As we stand the AFCCG was not a one-time complaint. The Colts complained in the regular season and Baltimore noticed the week before.
So my question: You said the "problem" was people were "assuming" the Patriots cheated. Let's assume they didn't cheat. How would one go to explain how on no less than 3 occasions the Pats have been accused of this?
Could the "problem" be--assuming New England is innocent (which could 100% be the case)--that this is repeat complaint about the balls and New England under Bilechick has a deserved reputation in the past of cheating?
As a non-Pats hater, I think this is the real problem. And I think Patriot fans should stop deflecting blame to outsiders. With Belichick you get the bad with the good--the bad that anything suspicious (3x games with underinflated balls) looks bad because you got cheated once.
Heck, look at how people act toward Sherman & holding or Pete the Cheat Carroll who magically should have known Reggie Bush's parents who lived away got a house. Not all reputations are earned. Bill earned his reputation. He may have been forgiven by the NFL but the fans have not forgotten. Bill's past history + multiple complaints look bad. The facts aren't bad but New England made this bed.
Assuming New England is 100% innocent the "problem" in my opinion, as a non-Pats fan, is the second option. Bill has a history of bad behavior, the balls were out of spec even if unintentioned which looks bad on itself, and this is not the first complaint this season thus it makes it look like a pattern of behavior. Any 2 of these 3 issues shifts the problem to the Pats, not other fans. The stats from 2007 onward for fumbles looks very incriminating.
I know this is running long but I will leave this as my last comment until more "news" on this issue comes about:
smackababy is probably closer to the truth that, as long as balls weren't being actively tampered with post-inspection, this is probably an amazing job of genius gamesmanship, finding a grey area in the rules that could be exploited without literally breaking the rules. It is only implied the ball in play must meet spec; the execution of that standard leaves a 2+ hour gap for "nature" to take its course. Unless the NFL specifically states, "The ball in play must conform to the ball spec" Bill, being one of the best coaches ever, found a way to get the ball he wants without breaking the written rule.
My guess could be wrong (conjecture) but if my guess is right I think Bill and Tom may have been better off doing this from the get go:
The complete control freak having no clue what they do with the balls rings hallow IMO. Oh well! On to Seattle!
I said, On to Seattle!
purbeast0
No Lifer
- Sep 13, 2001
- 53,752
- 6,629
- 126
i know most of you guys can't relate to this because you all are a buncha fat slobs who have never exercised a day in your life, but i remember as a kid when i would go play basketball after school at the park in january in 30-40 degree temps. and there were days when i'd get home and throw the ball outside behind a bush instead of taking it inside.
and i remember the next day when i would go to play basketball, the ball would hardly bounce because it lost so much air just sitting in the cold weather overnight.. i'd have to go pump it up just so i could use it again that day.
sure the timeframe is longer than 2 hours, but it was WAY more than 2psi that was lost in these cases, because from what i've been hearing on all the sports radio i listen to, an nfl ball that is 13.5psi and 11.5psi is hardly noticeable, if at all, especially to a non-football player.
and i remember the next day when i would go to play basketball, the ball would hardly bounce because it lost so much air just sitting in the cold weather overnight.. i'd have to go pump it up just so i could use it again that day.
sure the timeframe is longer than 2 hours, but it was WAY more than 2psi that was lost in these cases, because from what i've been hearing on all the sports radio i listen to, an nfl ball that is 13.5psi and 11.5psi is hardly noticeable, if at all, especially to a non-football player.
BoomerD
No Lifer
- Feb 26, 2006
- 66,674
- 15,074
- 146
Capt Caveman
Lifer
- Jan 30, 2005
- 34,543
- 651
- 126
Ban Bot:
In response to the three underinflated allegations:
1. Nov/Indy incident, they say the ball was underinflated. By how much and when was it measured?
2. Balt/Playoff game, the game was played in the low teens with a windchill close to below zero. From this article - http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/21/ravens-patriots-afc-divisional-underinflated-footballs The Ravens were complaining about their own kicking balls. How does NE have control of those balls? Either the Ravens or Refs have control of those balls, not NE. So, Baltimore was cheating.
3. Information is coming out that the only ball that was 2 psi under was the one intercepted and given to the Indy Equipment Manager and that all of the other balls tested by the refs were closer to being only 1 psi under. Report: Patriots’ Footballs Might Have Been Under-Inflated By 1 PSI, Not 2
In response to the three underinflated allegations:
1. Nov/Indy incident, they say the ball was underinflated. By how much and when was it measured?
2. Balt/Playoff game, the game was played in the low teens with a windchill close to below zero. From this article - http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/21/ravens-patriots-afc-divisional-underinflated-footballs The Ravens were complaining about their own kicking balls. How does NE have control of those balls? Either the Ravens or Refs have control of those balls, not NE. So, Baltimore was cheating.
3. Information is coming out that the only ball that was 2 psi under was the one intercepted and given to the Indy Equipment Manager and that all of the other balls tested by the refs were closer to being only 1 psi under. Report: Patriots’ Footballs Might Have Been Under-Inflated By 1 PSI, Not 2
waggy
No Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 68,143
- 10
- 81
Ns1
No Lifer
- Jun 17, 2001
- 55,420
- 1,600
- 126
BrokenVisage
Lifer
- Jan 29, 2005
- 24,772
- 14
- 81
/Phokus font
NFL looking at Patriots attendant
http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story...cker-room-attendant-deflategate-investigation
Temperature deflated the balls?? Hahahahahahahahhahaha hahahah
NFL looking at Patriots attendant
http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story...cker-room-attendant-deflategate-investigation
Temperature deflated the balls?? Hahahahahahahahhahaha hahahah
I read a similar report and something isn't right. What vested interest would anyone in the NFL have in trying to embarrass a team right before the SuperBowl? This "leak" smells.
Publicity, of course. EPSN is getting hits from this crap. The NFL is getting the Patriots put into more news broadcasts, and is making them the villain. Traditionally, big bad Richard Sherman would be the villain, but ol' Bill and Touchdown Tom are easier to hate. They can have the underdog, lil Russ, painted as this golden boy going up against the Goliath, possibly cheating Brady bunch. It is the ultimate clash of good vs evil, to the tune of the NFL getting billions.
I mean hell, we got Bill fucking Nye on TV talking about it...
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
- 143
- 106
Whoever is David and whoever is Goliath, it matters not. Just looking forward to Seattle stomping a mud hole in that ass. Nobody will remember belicheat after going 0fer in his last 3 super bowls and Russell "not black enough" Wilson will be the new face (like Derek jeter) of the league after he wins multiple championships at such a young age. His ex-wife will commit suicide after he gets the highest contract for a qb ever (wisely AFTER the divorce of course), and beast mode gets cut to make salary room and has a manchild temper tantrum.
Rules are Rules. As most know AFC/NFC alternate home/away for the Super Bowl. Seattle (NFC) was away, Denver (AFC) home, in SB48. In SB49 NFC (Seattle) is home.
A less known rule is AFC/NFC alternate good/evil. The Seattle Sherman Thugs (NFC) were evil, and The Denver Mannings (AFC) were good, in SB48. The NFC is good this year, AFC evil. So Lil Good Gus Russ gets to take on Big Bad Bill and Brady.
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