Today I added up all the tax I pay

[sm625]

Your actual taxes are a lot more than $6 grand. What do you think it is when government borrows 2 trillion a year of new money into existence, and then that new money goes into health care, tuition, food, energy, etc? 5-10 years ago that deficit spending was flowing into a housing bubble. Your real tax rate is over 50%.

 

[Genx87]

Federal income: $3,014
Social Security and Medicare: $1,943
State income: $1,883

Total: $6,840
Salary: $36,516

That's not even counting the 4% excise tax we have in Hawaii.

So how do I get to be one of the 47% that conservatives claim pay no taxes? I think I heard it has to do with having children out of wedlock and being a deadbeat. Whatever it is, I need to figure it out because then I'd have zero debt and some nice savings!

What is your federal income tax liability after deductions and credits?

 

[BudAshes]

LOL! Fuck you, yep, I'm white, I'm male and I'm going to continue to make money. Try and stop me from being successful in this great country. You can't you fucking socialist. See you in November.

Were you fist pumping when you typed that?

 

[Genx87]

Doing your taxes right now

Looks like your tax liability for 2011 is 3629. With the EIC you will owe 215 dollars. Your federal income tax liability is 9.9%

 

[EagleKeeper]

You see, it is posts like this that make it hard to debate anything with an ideologue.

Let's look at facts, shall we?

According to the information provided by the IRS;

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/11infallbulincome.pdf

There were 140.5M individual tax returns filed in 2009. Also, according to the IRS, there were a grand total of 26.17M that filed claiming the EITC:

http://www.eitc.irs.gov/central/eitcstats/

That is a whopping 18.63% of all tax filers that claimed the EITC. Please tell me where your talking point 47% number finds the other 40+M tax filers that are getting this benefit or others that will qualify them to pay no federal taxes and explain what they are other than a standard deduction that even the uber rich qualify for as well as the uber poverty level poor.

EITC is only one way of reducing the tax paid (credit).
Parttime workers (Seniors and others that have to be limited for one reason or another)
Students (educational credits)
Graduated Students - Loan paybacks w/ low income
People who are under the minimum threshold bracket (income level and/or IRA contribution)
People that have large amount of dependents. (4 adults can reduce taxable income by $1+2K.)
Many of those that are on public assistance end up with no tax liability having no declared income. Otherwise, they would not qualify

 

[spidey07]

You get a deduction for your mortgage interest paid. If you're paying 15,000 in interest each year (equates to a mortgage of about 350,000), that's a federal tax savings of about $3750 each year (assuming your marginal tax rate is 25&#37😉..

The health care premiums paid by your employer aren't taxable. For a couple without children, your employer is probably shelling out at least $10,000 in premiums. So you're saving another $2500 in taxes.

And YOUR contribution to health care premiums is paid with pre-tax dollars. That's probably about $2000 for a couple, so you're saving yet another $500.

All told, that's about $6750 in federal tax savings due to loopholes. And I haven't yet counted the amount you save on your state income tax because of these loopholes, which would put you at well over $7,000 saved because of these loopholes.

Any further questions, 'Tard?

So deductions that just about every person who itemizes utilizes are now loopholes? But good on ya to list the only ones that aren't phased out.

Are you honestly going to call legitimate deductions loopholes? Let me guess, you want to do away with the mortgage interest deduction because it's a "loophole"? How about state and property taxes? You want me to pay federal taxes on that shit too? My property tax bill will be 8000 on the house alone, you want me to pay tax on that?

 

[RightIsWrong]

EITC is only one way of reducing the tax paid (credit).
Parttime workers (Seniors and others that have to be limited for one reason or another)
Students (educational credits)
Graduated Students - Loan paybacks w/ low income
People who are under the minimum threshold bracket (income level and/or IRA contribution)
People that have large amount of dependents. (4 adults can reduce taxable income by $1+2K.)
Many of those that are on public assistance end up with no tax liability having no declared income. Otherwise, they would not qualify

To address your points sequentially:

- Part time workers still pay taxes but are afforded the standard deduction which may reduce their liability to zero (depending on filing status and joint income if married)

- Students that are working and earning an income are still paying income taxes that may be reduced to zero depending on income earned levels

- People under the minimum threshold still pay on the income while it is earned but will likely have a refund (or possibly even greater) based on a standard deduction

- People with a large amount of dependents may end up not paying if they earn less that $43k/yr (joint filing ($41K/yr individual)) taking standard deductions

- Those on public assistance do not have to file returns. They are not part of the equation.

The entire point of this argument is that the 47% is a bogus strawman because the EITC only accounts for ~16% of taxpayers getting out of a federal tax liability.

All of the other scenarios that you mentioned are most likely going to negate a person's federal tax liability by the filer taking the standard deductions filing a 1040EZ or a 1040A without itemizing.

That very same option is available for 100% of all filers which is why this is a strawman argument. If those making more than the $43K/yr wanted to file in the same manner that this mythical 47% are, they can. They would end up paying a shitload more because they wouldn't be itemizing, would lose their ability to claim mortgage interest, losses to offset capital gains, medical deductions, etc., but they could do it. They chose not to because, while it helps the poorer filers, it hurts them. But it sure gives them a great logical fallacy of an argument to try to beat them over the head with.

 

[IronWing]

Are you honestly going to call legitimate deductions loopholes? Let me guess, you want to do away with the mortgage interest deduction because it's a "loophole"?

Of course they are loopholes. They were designed to allow priviledged folks to avoid taxes. The mortgage interest tax deduction is particularly ridiculous. The more you borrow on a house, the lower your taxes! Houses, while nice to live in, are dead assets that don't produce value. The mortgage interest tax deduction discourages investment in American productivity by making consumptive use of capital more attractive.

 

[spidey07]

Gaming losses are only used to offset reported gaming income.

One also must itemize (1040/Schedule A) to deduct losses.

When Joe Sixpack hits the lottery for $2K, he will not be able to offset the tax on those winnings due to not having enough to use the Schedule A

Got a good number of W2-Gs coming my way from TVG. Of course I save all my tickets and can show a net gain of zero and pay ZERO taxes on my winnings. It helps that you can get profit/loss statements from tracks/casinos. Guess that's a loophole as well.

 

[MiniDoom]

Most I made in my life was 43k a year, and had stay at home wife, and two kids, and a mortgage, car payment... Made it just fine.

Granted, I wasn't in an expensive town. Mortgage amounted to $800 a month.

Sometimes I wish I had never left that job and moved to another state hoping the grass would be greener.

It all ended badly for me. Best of luck to you and yours though. 🙂

thanks and sorry for your misfortunes. a large part of the issue is i'm in the dc area which is very expensive. we have one car (no payment) but i ride a bicycle around because i cant afford a car payment right now which is starting to suck in the winter. 😀

 

[spidey07]

Of course they are loopholes. They were designed to allow priviledged folks to avoid taxes. The mortgage interest tax deduction is particularly ridiculous. The more you borrow on a house, the lower your taxes! Houses, while nice to live in, are dead assets that don't produce value. The mortgage interest tax deduction discourages investment in American productivity by making consumptive use of capital more attractive.

Umm, you do realize how many jobs are created by the housing industry? The interest deduction highly encourages investment in american productivity by the jobs created.

Are you now calling homeowners the privileged class? Those deductions can be taken by any tax payer.

 

[EagleKeeper]

RightIsWrong

All I was trying to do was indicate other ways the 47% figure for no Federal Income tax is reached beyond just the EITC

 

[EagleKeeper]

Got a good number of W2-Gs coming my way from TVG. Of course I save all my tickets and can show a net gain of zero and pay ZERO taxes on my winnings. It helps that you can get profit/loss statements from tracks/casinos. Guess that's a loophole as well.

As long as you can use the Schedule A, you can balance out the winnings with what every documentation to back up the losses.

I was pointing out that there are people that are unable to utilize the Schedule A even if they have losses that would balance out the winnings.

It is not a loophole, but a penalty

 

[JS80]

I know a guy that collects used lottery tickets. Puts them down as gambling losses. Claims last year he had $3000 worth of "losses". He has the losing tickets to back it up.

I was wondering why in the first place, gambling losses are allowed when it comes to taxes?
Guess the mob really does own the government, congress, and the banks...
Now THAT would about explain it all.
Explains why congress is the way they are, the presidents, the political parties, the high courts, that top 1%, state and city government, you name it.

lol he's doing it wrong. You can only deduct gambling losses up to your gambling gains.

Or nice try if you're trolling.

 

[xBiffx]

Of course they are loopholes. They were designed to allow priviledged folks to avoid taxes. The mortgage interest tax deduction is particularly ridiculous. The more you borrow on a house, the lower your taxes! Houses, while nice to live in, are dead assets that don't produce value. The mortgage interest tax deduction discourages investment in American productivity by making consumptive use of capital more attractive.

How ignorant can you be. The interest deduction was a direct result of the Tax Reform Act in 1986. Before that, I could deduct interest on any personal loan. So how is it that limiting me to just my mortgage loan is somehow a way for me to avoid taxes. Moron. Plus, the reasoning behind keeping mortgage interest deductible was to incentivize home ownership, which at the time was a great idea. Granted with interest rates and the housing market where it is today, it makes less sense, but its going to be extremely difficult to take it away without kicking the economy square in the nuts.

 

[IronWing]

Umm, you do realize how many jobs are created by the housing industry? The interest deduction highly encourages investment in american productivity by the jobs created.

Are you now calling homeowners the privileged class? Those deductions can be taken by any tax payer.

Again, the more you borrow, the bigger the tax break. So folks borrowing (tying up capital that could be used for increasing the productive capacity of American business) to buy expensive houses (which produce nothing) get a bigger break than folks buying more modestly priced houses. Furthermore, the folks buying more expensive houses tend to be in higher tax brackets so that the benefit of this deduction is magnified for more affluent taxpayers vs less affluent taxpayers. By design, this tax deduction provides far more benefit, both in rate and in absolute terms, to higher income taxpayers than lower income taxpayers.

 

[TheSlamma]

Cool, a thread where Spidey and JS80 can both brag about their mass income to low social skills ratio

 

[RightIsWrong]

RightIsWrong

All I was trying to do was indicate other ways the 47% figure for no Federal Income tax is reached beyond just the EITC

I understand what you were doing and wasn't trying to come across as attacking you and apologize if I did.

All I was trying to do is point out that this 47% is a bullshit argument because the very basic and simple method that is being used by those that no longer have a federal tax liability (they actually still do pay taxes though but it is refunded to them) is available to everyone including those that are doing the bitching.

And if they wanted to take full advantage of it, they could earn less money so that they wouldn't have a tax liability either.

Me personally, I like my $100K+ job and, while not happy about my tax liability, will choose it every day of the week over the alternative to get out of it.

 

[spidey07]

I understand what you were doing and wasn't trying to come across as attacking you and apologize if I did.

All I was trying to do is point out that this 47% is a bullshit argument because the very basic and simple method that is being used by those that no longer have a federal tax liability (they actually still do pay taxes though but it is refunded to them) is available to everyone including those that are doing the bitching.

And if they wanted to take full advantage of it, they could earn less money so that they wouldn't have a tax liability either.

Me personally, I like my $100K+ job and, while not happy about my tax liability, will choose it every day of the week over the alternative to get out of it.

No it's not. You should know the phase outs because you're pretty close to them and likely can't take many deductions.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Of course they are loopholes. They were designed to allow priviledged folks to avoid taxes. The mortgage interest tax deduction is particularly ridiculous. The more you borrow on a house, the lower your taxes! Houses, while nice to live in, are dead assets that don't produce value. The mortgage interest tax deduction discourages investment in American productivity by making consumptive use of capital more attractive.

There is a limit on the Interest deduction.

It also encourages more investment in the housing industry.
Each house built generates 5-7 additional jobs between design, construction, maintenance costs that go into the house.

Which is the explain of a major part of the tanking of the economy a few years ago. Housing put the brakes on and the ripple effect slammed to a halt.


The value of the house to the economy is the maintenance costs.
Lawn equipment that gets replaced, exterior lighting/displays for holidays, lawn care, outdoor play equipment for children, painting, shovels, garden equipment supplies, etc.

I figure I feed at least 5-7K per year into the local economy that I would not be doing in a rental. Whether that difference would be spent on other items locally, outside the area or saved; I would expect the later two.

 

[JS80]

I understand what you were doing and wasn't trying to come across as attacking you and apologize if I did.

All I was trying to do is point out that this 47% is a bullshit argument because the very basic and simple method that is being used by those that no longer have a federal tax liability (they actually still do pay taxes though but it is refunded to them) is available to everyone including those that are doing the bitching.

And if they wanted to take full advantage of it, they could earn less money so that they wouldn't have a tax liability either.

Me personally, I like my $100K+ job and, while not happy about my tax liability, will choose it every day of the week over the alternative to get out of it.

Oh, is that why I'm not allowed to contribute to my Roth IRA? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roth_IRA#Income_limits

 

[EagleKeeper]

No it's not. You should know the phase outs because you're pretty close to them and likely can't take many deductions.

You are arguing technicalities over the same concept.

In the end there may be 47% of the eligible filers that end up with no federal tax liabilities.

There are multiple reasons for such.

Most of the options that create the 47% are available to everyone; however the impact is not as great and/or limited.

Whether you have a dominant right hand or dominant left hand; more than likely you have two hands and still can accomplish picking up the same size items as each other. This is not a political statement by a physiological one.

 

[Vic Vega]

What is your federal income tax liability after deductions and credits?

My guess is -$3,000.00.

 

[WackyDan]

The health care premiums paid by your employer aren't taxable. For a couple without children, your employer is probably shelling out at least $10,000 in premiums. So you're saving another $2500 in taxes.

And YOUR contribution to health care premiums is paid with pre-tax dollars. That's probably about $2000 for a couple, so you're saving yet another $500.

Sigh... So make up your mind... Those "loopholes" in the tax code are enjoyed by both the lower middle class on up, not just the upper middle and beyond. Those loopholes are there in recognition that we have a hybrid public/private health care system here and that those benefits of employment should not be taxed. There is another nice loophole that allows you to deduct medical expenses that are over a % of your gross income.... All this in recognition that we do not have a single payer system.

So if you are a liberal advocating that my employer's and my share of medical benefit plan cost be taxed... therefore raising my costs for medical coverage, which is something you advocate for being "free", then I guess I don't understand liberals at all.

I mean... I'm still paying for the coverage but because my gov't recognizes it can't provide that coverage free to me, it doesn't tax me on the cost.... Makes sense...

So please explain why as a liberal you want the income I spend on my health care plan taxed...

 

[Throckmorton]

What is your federal income tax liability after deductions and credits?

I posted it
Federal income: $3,014