To all anti vaccination people

[OverVolt]

Hmm the schedule couldn't be set up the way it is today due to data could it? No, of course not.

Your argument sound reasonable from your own anecdote, but anecdotes are not data.

Ah yes like the data for the rising rate of autism .

Have to change the variable before you can test a hypothesis eh? Armchair/newsarticle scientists woo.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Actually, I did. This is a clear case of survivorship bias and saying that doesn't mean I'm simply a wiki expert. You have no idea what my background is nor does it matter because your supposed point can be disproven by anyone who has reading comprehension; no fancy degree is required. If you had even a shred of data, I wouldn't reply this way, but you obviously don't. Just because someone calls you out on obvious bullshit doesn't mean they're writing a 'flame boy hate post' as you called it.

To be more specific, your point carries no weight and has absolutely no impact on this discussion other than to draw attention away from more substantial statements. Saying you never get the flu and you never get the vaccine is either unintentional misdirection or idiotic rambling. I don't care which because the end result is the same - it contributes literally nothing to the topic specifically because you admitted not coming into contact with the vaccine. Further, calling the flu vaccine an educated guess while also implying that it often misses because - and here's the circular part - it's just a guess is grossly ignorant of how the particular proteins are selected from various strains to be the targets of mass produced vaccines in any given year. Lastly, it's comparable to 'overall vaccinations' (whatever the hell that means) because it's extremely common. Polio having a more targeted vaccine doesn't mean it's completely unrelated to every other vaccination group statistically. There's an obvious spectrum of efficacy, but that's not even what we're discussing at the moment. That's where the argument should be, but we're about 10 big giant moonsteps away from that.

Speaking of reading comprehension. You should get some. Anyway, my initial post the ending was just personal experience and no, is not a statement of the effectiveness. I do disagree that it is really as effective as some would have you believe based off the quickly changing mark they have to predict/hit. The point of "that" was, I do not class it in the same league as polio, measles, etc and do not see it as necessary. (I know, crazy whackjob right?). Also - I didn't admit to not coming into contact. I said I never got sick. There's a difference.

I'm not anti-vaccination, but I do have a skeptical view of pharmaceuticals and think everyone should. It's about making as much money as can be made NOW, not about saving/making people better. When all the studies are done by those same companies, it makes it difficult to believe any reports you read. History has many instances of things that were fine to use for many years before found to be harmful (meanwhile we were told they were fine). I think we agree on some of these points.

 

[abj13]

Mmm I feel like both may be wrong. I don't think its the preservative, but I also don't think its a good idea to give 2,3,4 month olds a ton of vaccines either. I felt pretty unwell from the flu vaccine with headaches and such its plausible exposing kids to several antigens at once while they are developing is not a good idea. What are they going to do complain about their headache?

There has been no association between the number of vaccines given and adverse outcomes. In fact, if the number of vaccines given in early life were associated with adverse outcomes, wouldn't we expect the "no vaccine" group to have less Autism, etc right? But we do not.

In fact the number of viral antigens seen in a vaccine is far fewer than the number of antigens seen in a native infection. So this argument of too many antigens at once holds no merit since there isn't any data to support it biologically or in epidemiological studies.

 

[OverVolt]

There has been no association between the number of vaccines given and adverse outcomes. In fact, if the number of vaccines given in early life were associated with adverse outcomes, wouldn't we expect the "no vaccine" group to have less Autism, etc right? But we do not.

In fact the number of viral antigens seen in a vaccine is far fewer than the number of antigens seen in a native infection. So this argument of too many antigens at once holds no merit since there isn't any data to support it biologically or in epidemiological studies.

Right I agree somewhat. An actual infection leads to more antigens, I know. It would be unusual to catch all 3 at once though.

So, for strep throat the immune response can lead to an autoimmune disorder, which is why they prescribe antibiotics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheumatic_fever. And children are more susceptible.

Its entirely possible the antibodies elicited are interfering with proteins in the brain during development. It really would not take much. Just an autoimmune response to Glial cells instead of joint tissue.



Anyway from that kook site, they seem to be trying to twist this article: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7610.2005.01425.x/full into saying there is causative proof. Dunno yet.

------

The potential messyness of the data between immunization cohorts and ASD diagnosis by age 7 is tricky but it'll sink in. I'm not sure what the kook site is trying to get at. It only applies to MMR.

 

[Paratus]

There has been no association between the number of vaccines given and adverse outcomes. In fact, if the number of vaccines given in early life were associated with adverse outcomes, wouldn't we expect the "no vaccine" group to have less Autism, etc right? But we do not.

In fact the number of viral antigens seen in a vaccine is far fewer than the number of antigens seen in a native infection. So this argument of too many antigens at once holds no merit since there isn't any data to support it biologically or in epidemiological studies.

Very well put.

The downsides of vaccines are well documented and mainly revolve around allergic reactions. Children's immune systems are challenged daily a few vaccines isn't going to do more than some injection site soreness and maybe some mild cold like symptoms.

For those "skeptics" out there who think there's big money for the pharmaceutical industry, maybe you should ask yourself which make more money for the industry, a once a day pill you take for years to control some symptom like Viagra, or 1-3 shots that prevent an entire disease for most of your life. :hmm:

 

[Paratus]

Ah yes like the data for the rising rate of autism .

Have to change the variable before you can test a hypothesis eh? Armchair/newsarticle scientists woo.

Are you trying to link autism to vaccination or are you saying better diagnosis is leading to rising rates of diagnosed autism spectrum disorder?


Other than a gut feel that spacing out the vaccinations provides some benefit, what makes you think this is the case?

In fact the only benefit it looks like you'd get is a perceived reduction in risk from unknown side effects. Hardly the stuff to hang a change to the entire countries vaccine schedule in my opinion.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Speaking of reading comprehension. You should get some. Anyway, my initial post the ending was just personal experience and no, is not a statement of the effectiveness. I do disagree that it is really as effective as some would have you believe based off the quickly changing mark they have to predict/hit. The point of "that" was, I do not class it in the same league as polio, measles, etc and do not see it as necessary. (I know, crazy whackjob right?)

I'm not anti-vaccination, but I do have a skeptical view of pharmaceuticals and think everyone should. It's about making as much money as can be made NOW, not about saving/making people better. When all the studies are done by those same companies, it makes it difficult to believe any reports you read. History has many instances of things that were fine to use for many years before found to be harmful (meanwhile we were told they were fine). I think we agree on some of these points.

Like who? I don't think anyone that knows what they're talking about has said the flu vaccine is at a high level of effectiveness. I'd discuss this further but your second paragraph is so utterly silly its clear you don't have an understanding of what vaccines are at all or the research and development of them. You are absolutely being just as bad as the other anti-vaccination people as you're letting ignorance and irrationality sway your actions based on your own beliefs. You're literally doing the exact same thing. You might have reduced it to a smaller subset of things you apply it to, but I'd guess that if you weren't required to get vaccinations when you were younger that you very likely would cop this same attitude towards all of them now.

Thinking flu vaccines are worthless != Being against the fucking polio vaccine.

You're either trolling or retarded.

Wow, you are every bit as bad as the people you deign "retarded". This is the second time you've exhibited a level of ignorance causing you to bastardize a topic such that its clear you don't actually know jack shit about what you're talking about (the other being that mindblowingly stupid analogy you used in the Cosmos thread). Talk about trolling. No one was even discussing flu vaccines until you went off on it.

 

[OverVolt]

I think you are going to want a potential antigen whose antibody may bind to sialic acid or proteins associated with its synthesis as a research target.

Perhaps Hib or PCV antigens.

Or maybe its just people who give flu shots to their 6 month old.

There is surprisingly little research other than on MMR which I'm pretty sure is in the clear.

I feel like that is pretty interesting WRT to the link earlier on Glial cells.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sialic_acid#Sialic_acid_and_immunity

http://oro.open.ac.uk/9808/

 

[Dude111]

They thought the vaccine would be dangerous to her.

I dont wanna say too much or this thread will get QUITE HEATED!!

They had good reason to feel this way... VACCINES CAN COMPROMISE YOUR NATURAL IMMUNE SYSTEM!!!! -- Leaving you vulnerable to getting something later in life YOU MIGHT NOT GET OTHERWISE!!



I feel bad for this girl -- The parents were only trying to avoid making her worse....

 

[OverVolt]

Very well put.

The downsides of vaccines are well documented and mainly revolve around allergic reactions. Children's immune systems are challenged daily a few vaccines isn't going to do more than some injection site soreness and maybe some mild cold like symptoms.

For those "skeptics" out there who think there's big money for the pharmaceutical industry, maybe you should ask yourself which make more money for the industry, a once a day pill you take for years to control some symptom like Viagra, or 1-3 shots that prevent an entire disease for most of your life. :hmm:

Ugh well I think MMR is put to bed as not the culprit IMO.

When did they start giving the flu shot to babes? and when did Hib and PCV come out hmmm.

I also don't think the preservative is the culprit either.

Instead of "vaccines cause autism ermagerd!!!" think of it as "what environmental factors are kids exposed to by age 7 that may cause autism."

I'm thinking along the lines of an autoimmune disorder wrt to glial cells. They don't really know what causes autism which is why no one knows where to begin looking.

The "ermagerd vaccines" crowd is probably detracting from finding the real cause.

The rate is increasing fast enough that I think its *something* other than genetics.

That is the RATE. That is pretty scary. I don't really care if diagnotics account for 25% of the increase, its an exponential function nonetheless. 1 in 5,000 to 1 in 110 over a couple decades is not genetics.

I'd love to see a correlation between autoimmune disease rates and autism rates.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/246960.php

Maybe we shouldn't be concocting antigens and eliciting immune responses unless we have a damn good reason, like polio.

 

[OverVolt]

Bingo this would be it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16278064

*If* research can show autism really does have an autoimmune link, like all the other autoimmune disorders rising.

So taking these two things
-Acquiring infections seems to decrease the incidence of autoimmune disorders and...
-illiciting an immune response can provoke an autoimmune disorder

Where do you think vaccines fit? Maybe we are vaccinating too many people for diseases they aren't likely to have. It changes the vaccine risk/reward calculation.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Well, I suppose you're correct. If I was to draw a Venn Diagram of the "vaccines gave my kid autism" and "flu vaccines are worthless" sets of people, there would be a lot of overlap, but alas, the two are not equal sets. Nonetheless, both sets are a subset of the set of idiots.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

i would comment more, but i'll just leave my grins here

 

[OverVolt]

Closerrrr.......

http://www.jleukbio.org/content/80/1/1.full

Give me a lab and 5 years ATOT

Autism seems to entangle only the two most complicated biology topics ever. The immune system and the brain. Neither of which we fully understand.

Further study of the reciprocal actions of the nervous, immune, and endocrine systems may help to unravel the mystery of ASD.

Oh gee is that all?

 

[ImpulsE69]

ATOT: Where the FORs come off as zealoty as the AGAINSTs

Nice to see the "intelligent" crowd still acts like 12 year olds when they post on the internet. Sigh. Are those soapboxes made of cardboard or foam?

 

[OverVolt]

Besides, I'd still give my kids the vaccines. I'd leave out the flu shot it seems trendy. My first one ever was as an adult and I was fine, I'd try to delay the schedule a bit. More of a schedule like I had. 15 months. Fair compromise.

Unless there is more data out there. I think all the finger pointing at MMR is flat out wrong though.

 

[CottonRabbit]

The rate is increasing fast enough that I think its *something* other than genetics.

That is the RATE. That is pretty scary. I don't really care if diagnotics account for 25% of the increase, its an exponential function nonetheless. 1 in 5,000 to 1 in 110 over a couple decades is not genetics.

The increase in the prevalence of autism is due to broadened diagnostic criteria, increased awareness and the development of services to help those with the disorder. Nowadays there is an incentive to get your child diagnosed with autism if they have a disorder. There is no evidence that there has been an organic increase in the number of people who meet current autism criteria.

http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v65/n6/full/pr2009131a.html

 

[CottonRabbit]

Closerrrr.......

http://www.jleukbio.org/content/80/1/1.full

Give me a lab and 5 years ATOT

Autism seems to entangle only the two most complicated biology topics ever. The immune system and the brain. Neither of which we fully understand.

Oh gee is that all?

At best, that's highly speculative. That last sentence basically tells me the authors have no direct evidence linking autism and autoimmunity.

Anyways, this discussion about autoimmunity is pointless. No large epidemiological study has ever shown even an association between autism and vaccinations. If the dubious claims that (1) vaccinations cause widespread autoimmunity and (2) autoimmunity causes autism were true, there should be evidence for a relationship. We have looked at records of literally millions of patients.

 

[MongGrel]

I'd make a comment about it being more some people and inbreeding possibly affecting that chart.

But I won't go near naming names at all on this one on the risk of getting skewered.

 

[Whisper]

The increase in the prevalence of autism is due to broadened diagnostic criteria, increased awareness and the development of services to help those with the disorder. Nowadays there is an incentive to get your child diagnosed with autism if they have a disorder. There is no evidence that there has been an organic increase in the number of people who meet current autism criteria.

http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v65/n6/full/pr2009131a.html

As someone working in the field of mental health, and having attended grad school where one of the kiddo labs focused exclusively on research and practice in developmental disorders (including autism spectrum), I can say that the above is the view of most folks in the field.

There have been HUGE pushes to identify autism early, including having pediatricians become more educated about--and therefore more likely to screen for--early signs of autism.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Another think like me or else thread, awesome.

 

[Gibsons]

I think you are going to want a potential antigen whose antibody may bind to sialic acid or proteins associated with its synthesis as a research target.

An antibody that binds to sialic acid and prevents flu infection would cause an autoimmune disease.

 

[Meghan54]

As someone working in the field of mental health, and having attended grad school where one of the kiddo labs focused exclusively on research and practice in developmental disorders (including autism spectrum), I can say that the above is the view of most "experts" in the field.

There have been HUGE pushes to identify autism early, including having pediatricians become more educated about--and therefore more likely to screen for--early signs of autism.

Look at the rates of ADHD over the past decade, or of dyslexia over the decade or two before that, and you're going to see similar data, again owing to increased awareness and changing diagnostic criteria (particularly for ADHD).

So true. And to further your point, all one has to do is look at the trend for diagnosing ADHD in adults. An unheard of diagnosis decades ago for adults, now is trending upward rather swiftly. And that's almost exclusively due to MD education in diagnosing it and increased awareness, certainly not from vaccines or the like......

 

[SP33Demon]

Still not getting a flu vaccine until the odds are > than a coin flip for healthy young men like me. I haven't been sick via the flu in years.

 

[Gibsons]

Closerrrr.......

http://www.jleukbio.org/content/80/1/1.full

Give me a lab and 5 years ATOT

Get in line.

http://grants.nih.gov/Grants/guide/

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Still not getting a flu vaccine until the odds are > than a coin flip for healthy young men like me. I haven't been sick via the flu in years.

A fine personal choice, Flu shots are an entirely different thing. Young people don't really need them provided they stay away from strangers when you think you may be sick, stay away from older people and people that have bad immune systems. Otherwise its a fine choice. Skipping Polio vaccine is another story.