title change: Vatican cancels stem cell conference cuz scientists believe in science

[cybrsage]

The embryo is going to be aborted regardless, so why not use it to save lives.

All humans are going to die anyway, why not harvest them for their organs immediately when they are needed?

 

[zinfamous]

If im holding a convention and have speakers that go against my personal beliefs than i feel it is fine for me to eithor cancel the meeting or cancel that speaker. I believe the Vatican was concerned that even though they were willing to have the conference they were concerned that some speakers may not adhere to staying on a certain topic and would deliver speeches that would be contrary to what the meetings main agenda was. I think the Vatican was just playing it safe by cancelling the whole thing.

uh. the Vatican was trying to get its toes involved in science. It simply has no business thinking it can enforce a certain viewpoint and squash those who reject the Vatican world-view in a scientific conference, PERIOD.

If they feel upset by this, then they should accept the simple fact that they are not a scientific organization, and they will never subscribe to a scientific understanding of the universe.

 

[zinfamous]

All humans are going to die anyway, why not harvest them for their organs immediately when they are needed?

embryo /= human

embryo /= baby

embryo /= sentient.

fact.

 

[cybrsage]

I would say this is the reason the Catholic Church canceled the conference:

Dr. Daley has testified six times before committees of the United States Senate and United States House of Representatives to advocate for expanded governmental support for stem cell research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Q._Daley

The key speaker supports murder (from their point of view). Essentially, it is like the Jewish Defamation League cancelling a conference after they find out Tom Metzger is the key speaker.

 

[cybrsage]

embryo /= human

This is not correct. What species is it (remember, we are talking about the stage of human development) if it is not human?

embryo /= baby

embryo /= sentient.

fact.

These are correct.

 

[hal2kilo]

Yeah, I'm not understanding why supporting embryonic research is inherently "political" but opposing it is not.

In his frame of reference he is probably equating it with Global Warming, which we all know is nothing but a political agenda not based in science.🙄

 

[zinfamous]

This is not correct. What species is it (remember, we are talking about the stage of human development) if it is not human?



These are correct.

You're comparing a living human to a bag of cells.

stop being dense.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Kt, I retract the original postulation and offer a second.

How many Catholics are not against in-vitro, but are against Stem Cell Research.....

the one thing a search showed is that the CC's documents and statements say, in short, you need to fuck to have a kid, no exceptions, but there seems to be a woeful lack of communication of this as opposed to things like Stem Cell Research......

 

[cybrsage]

I don't feel like this is rejecting science in general. The Catholic Church has certain views on the morality of some scientific research and refuses to have anything to do with research in those areas. I disagree with their moral stance on this issue for a number of reasons, but pretty much EVERYONE draws moral lines when it comes to science (think Nazi medical experiments, which did have some scientific value but were morally wrong). The difference here is where the Catholic Church draws the line.

But like I said, I think they ARE wrong about embryonic stem cell research (and abortion, and birth control, and any number of other things). But since it was their conference, I suppose they can limit it to whatever issues they like.

This is a VERY good position to hold, and I completely agree with you.

 

[Ktulu]

Kt, I retract the original postulation and offer a second.

How many Catholics are not against in-vitro, but are against Stem Cell Research.....

the one thing a search showed is that the CC's documents and statements say, in short, you need to fuck to have a kid, no exceptions, but there seems to be a woeful lack of communication of this as opposed to things like Stem Cell Research......

And I think you're right about the lack of communication. Not only non-Catholics grossly mis-informed on what the Church teaches but so are many Catholics. Some times, like in most cases, we have to do our own research on these matters.

 

[cybrsage]

You're comparing a living human to a bag of cells.

stop being dense.

First, all humans are simply "bags of cells", so that does not support your position at all. Second, you made this claim:

"embryo /= human"

Now support it. If the embryo is not human, what species is it? Certainly you should be able to provide this information, since you claim the ebryo is not of the human species...aka not human.

 

[preCRT]

Churches are not scientific organizations and should not stick their noses in where it doesn't belong, let alone thinking they can host an international scientific assembly of scientists. If the Vatican wants to pretend, then hold an assembly of cardinals to discuss stem cell research.

 

[zinfamous]

Kt, I retract the original postulation and offer a second.

How many Catholics are not against in-vitro, but are against Stem Cell Research.....

the one thing a search showed is that the CC's documents and statements say, in short, you need to fuck to have a kid, no exceptions, but there seems to be a woeful lack of communication of this as opposed to things like Stem Cell Research......

Actually, I've heard that for many true believers, In Vitro is also a bad thing, because they know full well that thousands of embryos are destroyed each year in IVF facilities.

So the "they will be destroyed anyway!" argument doesn't work on them, because it is already a practiced that they dislike. At the very least, they seem to remain consistent.

However, this is how you challenge them: IVF creates more babies and potential Christian soldiers than no IVF ever would. So, the net increase of life is greater, and parents who could never have children without IVF, now can. Why is that bad?

That's the proper angle.

 

[zinfamous]

"embryo /= human"

Now support it. If the embryo is not human, what species is it? Certainly you should be able to provide this information, since you claim the ebryo is not of the human species...aka not human.

what would it be?

 

[Atreus21]

And the Church burned 'em just the same- it was for their own good, after all- to save their immortal souls...

Religion isn't just religion, at all, and it never has been. It's politics & Power, particularly wrt the Holy Roman Church. They ran Europe for centuries, and they want that back, and more.

They've always created their own facts, used them in an attempt to wield power. This is no different.

And yet, large secular communist governments have an enormous head start on religious governments on the numbers subjected to political oppression and murder.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I don't feel like this is rejecting science in general. The Catholic Church has certain views on the morality of some scientific research and refuses to have anything to do with research in those areas. I disagree with their moral stance on this issue for a number of reasons, but pretty much EVERYONE draws moral lines when it comes to science (think Nazi medical experiments, which did have some scientific value but were morally wrong). The difference here is where the Catholic Church draws the line.

But like I said, I think they ARE wrong about embryonic stem cell research (and abortion, and birth control, and any number of other things). But since it was their conference, I suppose they can limit it to whatever issues they like.

what's the point of holding a conference to discuss a topic if you are not willing to discuss all aspects of that topic?

The irony being this:

The catholic church is not against in-vitro fertilization of their worshipers, but they are against the destruction of any fertilized (and unused) embryo.

So... what are they supposed to do with the 100 or so unused little critters? Keep them in "storage"? Are people willing to pay for that? Or maybe people who come in looking for a kid have to use OTHER people's kids first before they try their own.

I am SURE that will go over well.

The problem with dancing on the line is that eventually you will end up tangled in it and tripping over your own words.

see below. the church is opposed to IVF.

I'm sorry but do you any prove that the Catholic Church is A-Okay with IVF?

The Catholic Church seems to disagree with your statement.

Read the section titled "In vitro fertilization and the deliberate destruction of embryos"

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...cfaith_doc_20081208_dignitas-personae_en.html

if anyone is ever wondering whats a source of what the church actually believes on practical matters, the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains damned near everything.

Here is a quote on things like IVF:

2377 Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. the act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."167 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses' union .... Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."168

so yes, the catholic church is opposed to IVF.

 

[monovillage]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation

Contents
[hide]

1 Experiments
1.1 Experiments on twins
1.2 Bone, muscle, and nerve transplantation experiments
1.3 Head injury experiments
1.4 Freezing experiments
1.5 Malaria experiments
1.6 Mustard gas experiments
1.7 Sulfonamide experiments
1.8 Sea water experiments
1.9 Sterilization experiments
1.10 Experiments with poison
1.11 Incendiary bomb experiments
1.12 High altitude experiments
2 Aftermath
2.1 Modern ethical issues

Just because the Catholic Church has a stricter set of ethics then some of the posters here (including myself) doesn't mean that their opinion doesn't have validity.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

If you do not stand for something, you will fall for anything. There is this little thing called "morals" and "values" that some people hold true.

Its not a matter of staying ignorant, its a matter of breaking those morals and values.

How many lives could we save if we killed prisoners and harvested their organs? Surely 10 year old Timmy could use that liver a lot more then a serial killer.

So where does an embryo place in society? Their just unwanted testing material, right? A homeless person is also unwanted, so we should kill that homeless person and test his body?

Obvious troll is obvious: straw man argument, bad analogy, off-topic, quasi-hysterical persistence (evident in the rest of the thread)...

Compare his statement "There is this little thing called 'morals' and 'values' that some people hold true. Its (sic!) not a matter of staying ignorant, its a matter of breaking those morals and values" with this quote from the Dalai Lama: "If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change."

Quite a difference, isn't it?

 

[Ninjahedge]

Zin, coming from the east coast, I have seen otherwise.

AAMOF, many Christians (not necessarily Catholics) have no problem participating in this.

The issue seems rather convoluted as the church website seems to put more emphasis on Love to Fuck to Procreate than the actual declaration of life on the zygotes...


And Fenix, look at my second post on that after Kt linked on his post.....

 

[Ktulu]

The issue seems rather convoluted as the church website seems to put more emphasis on Love to Fuck to Procreate than the actual declaration of life on the zygotes...

Perhaps you need to continue doing more research on the subject...

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2808

Here's a better document direct from the Vatican on the subject.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...h_doc_19870222_respect-for-human-life_en.html

Just do a "find" on zygote, it's discussed.

 

[woolfe9999]

The vast majority of Americans, catholic Americans, and evangelical Americans support embryonic stem cell research:

http://health.usnews.com/health-new...ricans-back-embryonic-stem-cell-research-poll

 

[monovillage]

The vast majority of Americans, catholic Americans, and evangelical Americans support embryonic stem cell research:

http://health.usnews.com/health-new...ricans-back-embryonic-stem-cell-research-poll

An online poll? Come on wolfie, you know better then that.

Methodology

This survey was conducted online within the United States between August 17-19, 2010 among 2,418 adults ages 18 and older. Figures for age, sex, race/ethnicity, education, region and household income were weighted where necessary to bring them into line with their actual proportions in the population. Propensity score weighting was also used to adjust for respondents' propensity to be online.

All sample surveys and polls, whether or not they use probability sampling, are subject to multiple sources of error which are most often not possible to quantify or estimate, including sampling error, coverage error, error associated with nonresponse, error associated with question wording and response options, and post-survey weighting and adjustments. Therefore, Harris Interactive avoids the words "margin of error" as they are misleading. All that can be calculated are different possible sampling errors with different probabilities for pure, unweighted, random samples with 100% response rates. These are only theoretical because no published polls come close to this ideal.

Respondents for this survey were selected from among those who have agreed to participate in Harris Interactive surveys. The data have been weighted to reflect the composition of the adult population. Because the sample is based on those who agreed to participate in the Harris Interactive panel, no estimates of theoretical sampling error can be calculated.

The results of this Harris Poll may not be used in advertising, marketing or promotion without the prior written permission of Harris Interactive.

These statements conform to the principles of disclosure of the National Council on Public Polls.

 

[woolfe9999]

An online poll? Come on wolfie, you know better then that.

You're right. I didn't check on the methodology. Online polls are close to worthless.

Here is a better one:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21676/stem-cell-research.aspx

 

[monovillage]

You're right. I didn't check on the methodology. Online polls are close to worthless.

Here is a better one:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21676/stem-cell-research.aspx

Thank you wolfie, you are as always a class act.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Perhaps you need to continue doing more research on the subject...

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2808

Here's a better document direct from the Vatican on the subject.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...h_doc_19870222_respect-for-human-life_en.html

Just do a "find" on zygote, it's discussed.

I am talking about that declaration. When you read through it, it focuses more on the root cause (Love needed to Schtup needed to Beget) than the actual outcome.

I am not saying they do not say it at all....