title change: Vatican cancels stem cell conference cuz scientists believe in science

[monovillage]

Not sure what you mean here, or where you even got this from. A researcher was going to give a keynote address which included a discussion of embryonic research. The Vatican is opposed to embryonic research, and that is why they canceled it. Who are the "political assholes" in this story?

By choosing Daley as a keynote speaker they effectively politicized a scientific conference. The Church shut it down as they should have done. Let the political assholes fund their own conference.

In this instance the political assholes are the people pushing for embryonic stem cell research.

 

[Rainsford]

I don't feel like this is rejecting science in general. The Catholic Church has certain views on the morality of some scientific research and refuses to have anything to do with research in those areas. I disagree with their moral stance on this issue for a number of reasons, but pretty much EVERYONE draws moral lines when it comes to science (think Nazi medical experiments, which did have some scientific value but were morally wrong). The difference here is where the Catholic Church draws the line.

But like I said, I think they ARE wrong about embryonic stem cell research (and abortion, and birth control, and any number of other things). But since it was their conference, I suppose they can limit it to whatever issues they like.

 

[Rainsford]

By choosing Daley as a keynote speaker they effectively politicized a scientific conference. The Church shut it down as they should have done. Let the political assholes fund their own conference.

Scientific ideas aren't "political" just because you disagree with them. Embryonic stem cell research is a perfectly valid area of scientific exploration. The Church is certainly entitled to ban such ideas from their conference, but calling it political is silly.

 

[woolfe9999]

Yeah, I'm not understanding why supporting embryonic research is inherently "political" but opposing it is not.

 

[monovillage]

You can't remove scientific issues from politics since the majority of funding is paid by taxpayers. You also can't remove embryonic stem cell research from the catholic religion since they see where the cells are obtained to be murder (or some such... i'm not catholic)

 

[monovillage]

My point was the choice of keynote speaker was a deliberate face slap to the church. They shut it down and good for them.

 

[Albatross]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Western_civilization

 

[Jhhnn]

You do realize their are many dedicated scientists now and in the past that believe(d) in God right?

And the Church burned 'em just the same- it was for their own good, after all- to save their immortal souls...

Religion isn't just religion, at all, and it never has been. It's politics & Power, particularly wrt the Holy Roman Church. They ran Europe for centuries, and they want that back, and more.

They've always created their own facts, used them in an attempt to wield power. This is no different.

 

[Rainsford]

You can't remove scientific issues from politics since the majority of funding is paid by taxpayers. You also can't remove embryonic stem cell research from the catholic religion since they see where the cells are obtained to be murder (or some such... i'm not catholic)

Is it reasonable to expect others to treat a scientific issue as political if YOU don't agree with their views for political reasons? I'm not sure something can be unilaterally political, and if it can be, then we've basically turned everything into a political issue.

 

[Rainsford]

My point was the choice of keynote speaker was a deliberate face slap to the church. They shut it down and good for them.

What makes you say it was deliberate, or a slap in the face at all? The speaker said he was going to mention embryonic stem cell research in the context of the history of the topic, not outright advocate for the concept of embryonic stem cell research. Certainly the fact that the speaker engages in a particular type of research can't be that offensive to the Catholic Church.

 

[monovillage]

Obviously the Catholic church which was going to hold the conference felt differently about Daley.

http://us.macmillan.com/stemcellwars/EveHerold
Forward by Daley.

Americans have become the victims of misinformation about stem cell research. Over the last few years, the stem cell debate has been intensely political, religious, and confusing to many people. Now, Eve Herold explains what this science is all about, who is for and against it, and why it must go forward. She pulls together fascinating stories to highlight every aspect of this multifaceted field. She exposes the politics of stem cell research and demonstrates how the outcome of the debate could ultimately affect all of us. Packed with real-life stories of the people caught up in this groundbreaking struggle,Stem Cell Wars cuts through the noise and sets the standard for future debate.

Obviously he lied.

 

[Rainsford]

Obviously the Catholic church which was going to hold the conference felt differently about Daley.

http://us.macmillan.com/stemcellwars/EveHerold
Forward by Daley.



Obviously he lied.

Again, my question is whether holding a scientific opinion about an issue is inherently political if others don't like it for non-scientific reasons? You're saying he was a "political asshole" for holding a scientific view the Church doesn't like, even though his comments at the conference were going to be toned down. That seems like an unreasonable standard to me.

They're well within their rights to cancel the conference, or have a purity test for people they invite. But acting like he's some sort of bad guy here is ridiculous.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Would it be wrong to criticize those that do not support your position?

Because that is what the OP is doing.

Not at all.
And they should and do have free reign to criticize me for my position.
If we agree to disagree fine, if we can find a compromise on the issue even better.

 

[MovingTarget]

And the Church burned 'em just the same- it was for their own good, after all- to save their immortal souls...

Religion isn't just religion, at all, and it never has been. It's politics & Power, particularly wrt the Holy Roman Church. They ran Europe for centuries, and they want that back, and more.

They've always created their own facts, used them in an attempt to wield power. This is no different.

You do realize that the Catholic church has admitted that it was wrong with respect to Galileo and many other classical scientists from that anti-science era, right? If anything, the Catholic Church is actually becoming more supportive of science than many other Christian sects/denominations. Heck, they even teach evolution in their own schools!

 

[monovillage]

Again, my question is whether holding a scientific opinion about an issue is inherently political if others don't like it for non-scientific reasons? You're saying he was a "political asshole" for holding a scientific view the Church doesn't like, even though his comments at the conference were going to be toned down. That seems like an unreasonable standard to me.

They're well within their rights to cancel the conference, or have a purity test for people they invite. But acting like he's some sort of bad guy here is ridiculous.

He accepted the invitation knowing how it would be viewed by the church. If he'd had any integrity he would have refused the invite. Instead he accepted knowing full well it would cause controversy. Does he get to play little Mr. Innocent now?

 

[Sonikku]

So whats ignorant about it preCRT?

Catholic church has always believed that God wanted people to multiply, which is why we have millions of eggs and sperm. To eliminate that (and killing an embryo) you are going against God's will. So, naturally, being a religion of faith, they are not going to endorse it.

Agreed. If people would just go with god we would not have so many problems. If anything, the Catholic church does not go far enough. I don't even know why they advocate medical breakthroughs of any kind. If you get Cancer, God obviously intended you to die. Why do people resist and tell the reaper to wait another day when they should just accept their fate and rollover?

 

[zinfamous]

Oh god, The Cells!

THE CELLS!!!!!!!!

 

[monovillage]

Agreed. If people would just go with god we would not have so many problems. If anything, the Catholic church does not go far enough. I don't even know why they advocate medical breakthroughs of any kind. If you get Cancer, God obviously intended you to die. Why do people resist and tell the reaper to wait another day when they should just accept their fate and rollover?

oooh, you were going good till you mentioned the reaper. You should have called him the "Angel of Death". Good try though.

 

[elitejp]

If im holding a convention and have speakers that go against my personal beliefs than i feel it is fine for me to eithor cancel the meeting or cancel that speaker. I believe the Vatican was concerned that even though they were willing to have the conference they were concerned that some speakers may not adhere to staying on a certain topic and would deliver speeches that would be contrary to what the meetings main agenda was. I think the Vatican was just playing it safe by cancelling the whole thing.

 

[Ninjahedge]

You do realize their are many dedicated scientists now and in the past that believe(d) in God right?

Yep.

And they are usually not the ones writing the rules.

They are the ones that want to unlock "God's" mysteries, not leave them as such and curse those that dare try.

 

[Ninjahedge]

You can't remove scientific issues from politics since the majority of funding is paid by taxpayers. You also can't remove embryonic stem cell research from the catholic religion since they see where the cells are obtained to be murder (or some such... i'm not catholic)

The irony being this:

The catholic church is not against in-vitro fertilization of their worshipers, but they are against the destruction of any fertilized (and unused) embryo.

So... what are they supposed to do with the 100 or so unused little critters? Keep them in "storage"? Are people willing to pay for that? Or maybe people who come in looking for a kid have to use OTHER people's kids first before they try their own.

I am SURE that will go over well.

The problem with dancing on the line is that eventually you will end up tangled in it and tripping over your own words.

 

[brandonb]

The irony being this:

The catholic church is not against in-vitro fertilization of their worshipers, but they are against the destruction of any fertilized (and unused) embryo.

So... what are they supposed to do with the 100 or so unused little critters? Keep them in "storage"? Are people willing to pay for that? Or maybe people who come in looking for a kid have to use OTHER people's kids first before they try their own.

I am SURE that will go over well.

The problem with dancing on the line is that eventually you will end up tangled in it and tripping over your own words.

The line is a tough stance, but if I had to guess. in-vitro fertalization results in a couple having a child, and therefore is fulfilling god's will of multiplying. Harvesting embryos for stem cells and medical research is probably looked at killing embryos to save another, and they have a problem with that morally.

It would be no different than in the movies where the only way for someone to get out (alive) was to kill another innocent person. (I know an embryo is not a person) but that is the type of thinking that is going on. Is it ok morally to kill another innocent person to save yourself?

 

[Ktulu]

The irony being this:

The catholic church is not against in-vitro fertilization of their worshipers, but they are against the destruction of any fertilized (and unused) embryo.

So... what are they supposed to do with the 100 or so unused little critters? Keep them in "storage"? Are people willing to pay for that? Or maybe people who come in looking for a kid have to use OTHER people's kids first before they try their own.

I am SURE that will go over well.

The problem with dancing on the line is that eventually you will end up tangled in it and tripping over your own words.

I'm sorry but do you any prove that the Catholic Church is A-Okay with IVF?

The Catholic Church seems to disagree with your statement.

Read the section titled "In vitro fertilization and the deliberate destruction of embryos"

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...cfaith_doc_20081208_dignitas-personae_en.html

 

[Ninjahedge]

Do you have any proof that it isn't?

I have not heard of any, and I sure as hell have heard of them being against killing of Embryos.

 

[Ktulu]

Do you have any proof that it isn't?

I have not heard of any, and I sure as hell have heard of them being against killing of Embryos.

I've edited my post above with link to what the Church has to say.