Thoughts on the Nissan Leaf?

[Kaido]

I think you're a little off there... :biggrin:

Unless they put a blower on the 3.6

Oops edited, I meant the 323hp model is advertised at 30mpg. I may or may not have been playing with the configurator options :biggrin:

 

[Kaido]

I love my 2011 Sonata, but I understand the styling isn't for everyone.
If it isn't your thing check out the Kia Optima, same platform but different styling and slightly different interior.

I actually kind of like the styling on the Sonata, but I also have a Kia Soul, if that gives you any indication for my taste in cars :biggrin: How's the ride & seat comfort? My Soul was a little stiff on the seats, but supportive.

My buddy got a new Optima and had massive problems with it, so I'm a bit turned off towards the Optima. There weren't really any other Kia's I liked, maybe the Forte 5-door, but eh. I had fun with my green Soul, but the blinds spots are terrible, so I don't want to go down that route again.

 

[CrackRabbit]

I actually kind of like the styling on the Sonata, but I also have a Kia Soul, if that gives you any indication for my taste in cars :biggrin: How's the ride & seat comfort? My Soul was a little stiff on the seats, but supportive.

My buddy got a new Optima and had massive problems with it, so I'm a bit turned off towards the Optima. There weren't really any other Kia's I liked, maybe the Forte 5-door, but eh. I had fun with my green Soul, but the blinds spots are terrible, so I don't want to go down that route again.

Ride is smooth and seat comfort is good. I've done several long 8+ hour trips in it without issue.
Gets great gas mileage too, last trip averaged 39+ mpg and was able to drive from El Paso, Tx to Yuma, Az on a single tank with some to spare.
Interior noise could be a bit better, but that might just be the tires. Still using the stock ones though they are starting to close in on the end of their life.

 

[AMCRambler]

Leaf is a good first attempt but needs tweaks in the battery department. I wouldn't go there just yet myself. Being stuck with dead batteries would piss me off to no end.

Volt is a better option for the tech right now but twice the money so not cost effective. Hybrid is really the most mature tech for lowering your gas bill today. Leaf re-worked will likely be the game changer. I'd hold out for that.

 

[LTC8K6]

The 2013 model Leaf has several changes/improvements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#2013_model

 

[Kaido]

Leaf is a good first attempt but needs tweaks in the battery department. I wouldn't go there just yet myself. Being stuck with dead batteries would piss me off to no end.

Volt is a better option for the tech right now but twice the money so not cost effective. Hybrid is really the most mature tech for lowering your gas bill today. Leaf re-worked will likely be the game changer. I'd hold out for that.

Yeah, if it were like 200 miles per charge, I'd be much more comfortable. Based on what I've read & what's been posted here, the existing 75 mile range is doable, but can drop to 55 miles in cold weather with the heater on, and even less in some instances. That's just a little too tight for me, especially after discussing it here...just in case of an emergency or something, there's no gas engine to rely on as a backup system. I have a pretty tight work schedule, so being stuck on the side of the road & waiting for a tow would be pretty lame haha.

I like the idea of Hybrids, but the financials make no sense. For example, the Hyundai Sonata - just grabbing some quick specs online:

1. $20,995 for the base GLS gas model, $25,650 for the Hybrid model - a $4,655 difference
2. The GLS gets 34 MPG highway; the Hybrid gets 40 MPG highway - a 6 MPG difference
3. The GLS has an 18.5-gallon tank (629-mile highway range), the Hybrid has a 17.2-gallon tank (688-mile highway range) - a 59-mile difference

So the Hybrid offers 6 MPG better fuel economy with an extra 59 miles of driving range on the highway for $4,655 more. At $4 a gallon for gas, that's 1163.75 gallons you could buy for the GLS for the price difference of the Hybrid, or approximately 62 fill-ups on an empty tank at current gas rates. If it was like twice as good mileage, I could see it justifying $4k+ more, but it's only a little bit more. Although, Hyundai offers the "Lifetime Hybrid Battery Replacement Guarantee", so that takes the hassle out of battery ownership.

Meh. A few more years, they'll get there.

 

[Kaido]

The 2013 model Leaf has several changes/improvements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#2013_model

That, and it's a surprisingly nice car inside. I like the tech and I like the general "feel" once you're inside the car. The outside isn't too exciting, but no biggie. I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot of battery improvements in the next 5 to 10 years too..Tesla is already boasting a 200-mile range on their electric models, although the car cost is much higher (and I wouldn't really be comfortable driving a higher-end car like that in the places I go haha).

 

[Doppel]

Most hybrids are a waste of time--decent tech but massive sticker price. The Prius is the main exception. Two million have been sold and it is very robust, very efficient, runs on 87 gas, and can often be had at a low cost. Leasing often is attractive on them because their resale is so high.

Battery concerns for the Prius are wholly invalid and its longevity is an absolute non-issue.

 

[Kaido]

Most hybrids are a waste of time--decent tech but massive sticker price. The Prius is the main exception. Two million have been sold and it is very robust, very efficient, runs on 87 gas, and can often be had at a low cost. Leasing often is attractive on them because their resale is so high.

Battery concerns for the Prius are wholly invalid and its longevity is an absolute non-issue.

Yeah, I was really interested in the Prius, but I didn't care for (1) the slight pause going from electric to gas at a dead stop (on the test drive, I was turning left and someone was coming down fast and the slight pause there made me jump haha), and (2) the passing ability on the highway (like if someone is merging into you and you need to floor it).

I'm also going to check out the 2013 Honda Civic sedan. The automatic model gets 39 MPG highway, which is awesome, and even the base LX model has traction control, Bluetooth, cruise control, and an MP3 input jack, which is pretty much all of the features I want.

 

[Kaido]

I stopped by Honda today. The Fit was the same as my 2010 model, but the Civic has had a redesign. So what's interesting is I fit the best in a Fit, second-best in a Civic, and third-best in the Accord - even though the Accord is the largest car. The Civic gave me a lot more room than the Accord sedan (I'm 6'1", 190 lbs) surprisingly. The Fit has a ton of headroom and was better laid out - I hit my knee on the left armrest more in the Civic though.

So that was kind of weird...the Accord was surprisingly cramped for the size. The Altima was way nicer & roomier than the Accord. But I liked the Civic more than I thought I would, and at just under $19k for the base model (LX), it gives me an automatic, cruise control, backup camera, Bluetooth, traction control, and 39 MPG. That's a heck of a lot for the price, and they offered it for the same as I'm paying for the Fit ($240/mo). Plus the Civic sedan is 5-star safety rated and the Fit is only 4-star. And the Fit is only 33 MPG highway.

So, I like the Altima the most, but the Civic sedan is looking like the best buy...a ton of features, great safety rating, and $6,000 less than the Altima. My wife is also interested in a Civic sedan, so maybe I can swing a deal for two of them. Plus they have a reputation as die-hard vehicles that last forever, so that's cool. Not as luxurious as the Altima, but all the same features in a small package for much less mula per month. I still want to check out Hyundai, so maybe I'll swing by after work if I have time tomorrow (yay for being close to dealerships haha).

 

[JulesMaximus]

Most hybrids are a waste of time--decent tech but massive sticker price. The Prius is the main exception. Two million have been sold and it is very robust, very efficient, runs on 87 gas, and can often be had at a low cost. Leasing often is attractive on them because their resale is so high.

Battery concerns for the Prius are wholly invalid and its longevity is an absolute non-issue.

The price difference between a Camry XLE and a Camry Hybrid XLE was only a couple thousand dollars. Well worth the added fuel efficiency for my commuting duties. I crunched the numbers and for me they were basically dead even. Why not get the hybrid was my thinking. It costs a little more but the lower operating cost offsets that.

 

[Kaido]

The price difference between a Camry XLE and a Camry Hybrid XLE was only a couple thousand dollars. Well worth the added fuel efficiency for my commuting duties. I crunched the numbers and for me they were basically dead even. Why not get the hybrid was my thinking. It costs a little more but the lower operating cost offsets that.

Hmm, that's a pretty good deal. My only gripe with Toyota is that nearly all of the models were a very tight fit for me :biggrin:

Oh, and congrats on the new ride!

 

[Maximus96]

started to look into the leaf myself and have a question on the tax rebates. If i lease the car, do I still qualify for the $7500 fed tax credit and $2500 california rebate? or is that already built into the price of car? this part is confusing me...

thanks

 

[LTC8K6]

started to look into the leaf myself and have a question on the tax rebates. If i lease the car, do I still qualify for the $7500 fed tax credit and $2500 california rebate? or is that already built into the price of car? this part is confusing me...

thanks

IIRC, the leasing company get the tax rebates.

 

[EagleKeeper]

IIRC, the leasing company get the tax rebates.

IRS Link

Plug-In Electric Drive Vehicle Credit (IRC 30D)

Internal Revenue Code Section 30D provides a credit for Qualified Plug-in Electric Drive Motor Vehicles including passenger vehicles and light trucks.

For vehicles acquired after December 31, 2009, the credit is equal to $2,500 plus, for a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a battery with at least 5 kilowatt hours of capacity, $417, plus an additional $417 for each kilowatt hour of battery capacity in excess of 5 kilowatt hours. The total amount of the credit allowed for a vehicle is limited to $7,500.

The credit begins to phase out for a manufacturer’s vehicles when at least 200,000 qualifying vehicles have been sold for use in the United States (determined on a cumulative basis for sales after December 31, 2009). For additional information see Notice 2009-89.

Section 30D originally was enacted in the Energy Improvement and Extension Act of 2008. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 amended section 30D effective for vehicles acquired after December 31, 2009. Section 30D was also modified by the American Taxpayer Relief Act (ATRA) 2013 for certain 2 or 3 wheeled vehicles acquired after December 31, 2011 and before January 1, 2014.

The vehicles must be acquired for use or lease and not for resale. Additionally, the original use of the vehicle must commence with the taxpayer and the vehicle must be used predominantly in the United States. For purposes of the 30D credit, a vehicle is not considered acquired prior to the time when title to the vehicle passes to the taxpayer under state law.

 

[Maximus96]

IRS Link

so the $2500 california rebate is a one time check, and the "up to" federal tax credit is whatever my federal tax is up to $7500, correct?

my wife and i typically don't pay that much federal tax...we should change our w4 to take less tax out each check in order to increase the amount we owe at the end of 2013 and maximize this $7500 right?

 

[Kaido]

so the $2500 california rebate is a one time check, and the "up to" federal tax credit is whatever my federal tax is up to $7500, correct?

my wife and i typically don't pay that much federal tax...we should change our w4 to take less tax out each check in order to increase the amount we owe at the end of 2013 and maximize this $7500 right?

Yeah that's one of the confusing things to me, the rebates & incentives...they don't really clearly explain how everything works.

Plus you have crazy stuff like here in Connecticut...you have to pay yearly tax on leased cars...my Honda Fit is $400 a year in taxes, for every year of the lease. I don't even own it! Why am I paying a yearly car tax on it??

 

[EagleKeeper]

so the $2500 california rebate is a one time check, and the "up to" federal tax credit is whatever my federal tax is up to $7500, correct?

my wife and i typically don't pay that much federal tax...we should change our w4 to take less tax out each check in order to increase the amount we owe at the end of 2013 and maximize this $7500 right?

I do not know about CA - See the Tax Link in OT.
Not interested in cloning myself 45 times
Wife will not cooperate and not enough GFs to cover the difference:whiste:

 

[Vdubchaos]

Don't do it!

Leaf has an equivalent of 50-60BTU of power. That's about an equivalent to 1/2 tank of gas.

Think about that for a min.....and yes you will need to be VERY careful with planning your commute and PRAY there is no traffic.

Of course all of the above is under the assumption that you don't use radio/AC and other things that need power. If you do, lower that # and plan even better.

Electric cars are a gimmick. They have been around for decades (heck almost a century) and failed each and every time.

Until Battery technology improves and there is a much better network of electric stations (and quick charging)......I don't see Electric technology going places.

I also have doubts about our infrastructure supporting massive amount of electricity demand that will be needed to power Americas cars.

 

[LTC8K6]

IRS Link

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/...r-chevy-volt-leasing-may-make-more-sense.html

The salary needed to lease either vehicle is significantly lower than what’s needed when buying one outright because the tax credit is being taken by the leasing agent, not the consumer.

I'm sure this is the case, as I have heard it all along from various sources. That's why the leases look so good.

 

[LTC8K6]

Q5: Can I claim the tax credit on a leased Volt / EV?

A5: No the leasing company “owns” the Volt. They basically claim the credit and factor that into the lease payments. You benefit from the tax credit through lower lease payments.

http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/chevy-volt-federal-tax-credit-form-8936

 

[LTC8K6]

If a vehicle is being leased, the credit stays with the leasing company, which is the actual owner of the car or truck. In most cases, however, the tax credit has been factored into the cost of the lease, so the customer still benefits. Lease programs for the Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf, for instance, include the $7,500 as a credit toward the down payment.

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-ins-and-outs-of-electric-vehicle-tax-credits.html

 

[EagleKeeper]

IRS Link

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/...r-chevy-volt-leasing-may-make-more-sense.html

The salary needed to lease either vehicle is significantly lower than what’s needed when buying one outright because the tax credit is being taken by the leasing agent, not the consumer.

I'm sure this is the case, as I have heard it all along from various sources. That's why the leases look so good.

Q5: Can I claim the tax credit on a leased Volt / EV?

A5: No the leasing company “owns” the Volt. They basically claim the credit and factor that into the lease payments. You benefit from the tax credit through lower lease payments.

http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/chevy-volt-federal-tax-credit-form-8936

If a vehicle is being leased, the credit stays with the leasing company, which is the actual owner of the car or truck. In most cases, however, the tax credit has been factored into the cost of the lease, so the customer still benefits. Lease programs for the Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf, for instance, include the $7,500 as a credit toward the down payment.

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-ins-and-outs-of-electric-vehicle-tax-credits.html

Looks like if it is stated up front; then you should not take the credit; it has already been given to you in terms of the payment system.

Because the government will not allow the credit to go to a reseller (leasor), they have connived to increase the cost of the vehicle $7500 and then say we are giving you the credit against the price.

One in theory could take the credit and claim that the lease is invalid because they are super-ceding the governments authority.

The IRS regs allow for a buy or lease of the vehicle; the reseller does not get the credits.

 

[Kaido]

Went back to Honda today and took my wife with me to check out the Civic. She liked it so much she traded the Fit in for it on the spot - got an LX sedan with heated cloth seats (she doesn't like leather). Lots of nice features...traction control for the snow, backup camera (which is actually useful because of our huge babyseat in the line of sight when you turn around to backup), Bluetooth for the phone, MP3 jack, and 39 MPG. All for roughly the cost of a zero-down Leaf, but I still have my monthly gas bill instead of nearly-free electricity. But I can live with 39 MPG on regular gas & the ability to go anywhere I want without running out of battery juice. I'll take a look at another Leaf in 3 years when the Civic's lease is up. Now, what to do about the Kia Soul lease...haha.

 

[LTC8K6]

The leasing company purchases the car, therefore they get the federal rebate. I don't see how you could ever take the federal rebate for leasing the car.

Straight from form 8936:

The following requirements must be met to qualify for
the credit:
• You are the owner of the vehicle. If the vehicle is leased,
only the lessor and not the lessee, is entitled to the credit