Thoughts on the Nissan Leaf?

[Kaido]

I have 4 payments left on my current lease (2010 Honda Fit Sport), so I'm looking into a new work beater. The all-electric Nissan Leaf caught my eye. I sat in one at a dealership a few months ago and was really surprised at how cool it was inside. It's not a very practical car due to the limited range, but as I've been shopping around, it actually kind of makes sense.

My daily commute is about 40 miles, 6 days a week. The Leaf gets about 75 miles of range, and from what I've read, 55 on the low side (cold weather etc.). So that would be enough to squeak by in a pinch. My wife has a car, so we have a gas vehicle available for longer trips & emergencies. I can get access to a garage at home and have a charger installed - the Level 2 chargers seem to run between $1-2k (DIY option listed on the Leaf site is $999), and I have an electrician buddy who can handle the installation. My work would not have a charger available (maybe the slow 3-prong method if I beg, but I doubt it), so I couldn't do much driving during the day, which I usually don't. So in theory it would fit my current lifestyle, and based on my work schedule for the last few years, it would do nicely - and I can plug it in when I get home from work if I need to buzz out for any errands in the evening.

My local dealer has a special for $1,999 down, $199 a month. I don't do down payments, so I'd guess it'd be about $260 a month. My Fit is $240 a month, plus gas. I usually fill up at least once a week, which is around $40 in my area, so a minimum of $160 a month in gas, so my baseline is $240/mo lease + $160/mo gas = $400/mo. So automatically my monthly car bill would get cut in half if I went with the down payment option on the Leaf. That's nice. Going with the monthly-only method would only add $20/mo to my current car budget, plus no gas requirement (not counting electricity costs, which a quick google tells me is about two to three bucks per "fill up", or less than $600 a year).

I was planning on checking out the 2013 Altima (current lease offer is $0 down, $260/mo, 27mpg city, 38mpg highway advertised, baloney I'm sure haha), so maybe I'll take a Leaf on a test drive as well. I really like the Leaf for the cool nerdy factor, from the gas-saving factor, and from the cool interior design. Never having to stop at a gas station again sure sounds nice too. So in theory...$1k for the charger, $2k down, $200 a month, zero gas bill. Thoughts?

 

[JulesMaximus]

You won't have a zero dollar "gas" bill. You will just be trading gas for electric. That said, it is much much cheaper to operate per mile than a car that runs only on gasoline.

My only concern would be the batteries. It is fairly well documented that owners of these cars are discovering that the efficiency of the batteries is decreasing more rapidly than they should. In other words, after a year you might get 65 miles, another year and it might be down to 55 mile range and so on. I don't know the exact figures though but you get the idea.

 

[RossMAN]

Why do you prefer lease over purchasing?

 

[Kaido]

You won't have a zero dollar "gas" bill. You will just be trading gas for electric. That said, it is much much cheaper to operate per mile than a car that runs only on gasoline.

My only concern would be the batteries. It is fairly well documented that owners of these cars are discovering that the efficiency of the batteries is decreasing more rapidly than they should. In other words, after a year you might get 65 miles, another year and it might be down to 55 mile range and so on. I don't know the exact figures though but you get the idea.

Yeah, that's what I figured...and why I think it'd be smarter to lease rather than buy an electric car. I remember when I took the Prius out for a test drive, the sales guy was touting that they'd just slashed the replacement battery cost in half from $8,000 to $4,000. Eek D:

 

[Zorba]

Have you looked at the Volt? I know they were having some great lease deals last year. I normally would never lease, but I think it is the only way I would get one of the all electric cars right now.

 

[Kaido]

Why do you prefer lease over purchasing?

A few reasons:

1. Cost: Leasing is not the most economical option, but it's not the most expensive, either. In fact, compared to the previous cars I've owned, it's almost a wash over time (provided you lease a >$300 car like I do). I don't do down payments and got them to nuke the return fee on my other car (usually $400 at the end of the lease), so it's basically just a monthly payment. You get gap insurance too, so if it gets totalled you're not on the hook to finish paying it off.

I like having a fixed amount that I have to pay for a car every month (that's not to say I like having a monthly payment, but rather I like having a steady amount I can work my budget around). A lot of people don't like having monthly payments, but I don't like giant surprise car bills. The worst hit I've taken in leasing is a flat tire - I ran over a screw last week and had to shell out $150 for the stupid special tire on the Fit. But on my previous Saturn ION sedan, I ran over a rock and broke the radiator and they covered it ($500 repair), which was awesome. So for the most part, you only have to worry about the car payment and basic maintenance. If you have a steady income that can cover that, then it works out pretty well.

The fixed amount also translates well into how I do finances. I work hourly (and will never take a salaried IT position if I have anything to say about it, lol) and I break things down that way - monthly, weekly, and daily expenses. First of all, showing up to work translates into a paycheck, so it's very important for me to have a reliable car (and most places that lease will give you a loaner if you need one). Second, I can justify things out to a daily basis. For my Fit, I walked into Honda after going to several other dealerships and said I have a $250 budget, I don't want to do a down payment, and I need decent gas mileage with cruise control. They popped out the Fit for $239 a month, no down payment, no first month payment. Boom, sold. It's been a great car too!

So that ~$240 a month payment translates into $60 a week for my "rental car". I work 6 days a week, so that's $10 a day I need to earn for my ride. Even if the economy tanks again or I get fired or whatever and I lose my job, I can still manage to pony up $10 a day working at McDonalds if I really need to. And because they cover any major warranty items and have gap insurance, I'm protected against huge repair & payoff bills. I usually do a 3-year lease, so I give it back before the tires go bald and the brakes go bad. So cost-wise, I can cement in $240 a month, every month, for the duration of the lease into my budget and only have minimal maintenance & basic repair items to have to account for. It's really nice not being whacked with a $600 "emergency repair" bill, for example

2. Convenience: It's basically a rental car. They cover any major repairs, you cover basic maintenance. You pick it up, drive it for a few years, and give it back. It's basically an appliance - you can't really modify it too heavily or anything, but if you just want a reliable form of transportation, this is a nice option. And since it's always a new car, you rarely have problems with it. And you never have to worry about the hassle of selling a car when you want to get rid of it - just return it to the dealership at the end of the lease.

I'm not a car fixit guy, although I'd kind of like to be someday, but I have a demanding work schedule and would rather spend my free time with my family when I get home or goofing off, rather than working on my car or taking it in to get fixed. So it's sort of like renting an apartment instead of buying a house...you lose out on equity and stuff, but you also never have to mow the lawn, shovel your driveway, or pay all the extra expenses a homeowner does. There are pros and cons, like everything else.

3. Mileage: It's my work car. I drive about 1,000 miles a month, so that fits into the base 12,000-mile package that most leased cars start with. If you drive a lot, then leasing isn't a good option. My brother drives approximately 80k miles a year, so leasing is a bad option for him. For me, it's great. I drive to work and back, and out for errands, and that's about it, so the mileage limitation works for me.

So, leasing is not for everyone. The "American way" is ownership, but it seems like most people go through a few cars in their lifetime, and everyone dies eventually, so from a big-picture perspective, you can eliminate a lot of hassle in your life if you need a car and if you're willing to put up with a monthly payment for the rest of your life. You're limited in what you can mod in the car and how far you can drive, but you get a nice, new, reliable, safe car every few years, which is also really nice. I don't really ever have to worry about my car because everything is taken care of, and it's not driving me into the poor house like a couple of the previous cars I owned did. My first car cost $2400 and I spent $3000 in the first 3 months of owning it in repairs - that's nearly a year of leasing a brand new car! That's obviously not the case for all used cars, and if you want the most economical method, buying a newer used car is usually your best bet, but this makes for a nice option too.

Leasing is one of those things where it has to work for your situation and you have to want to do it. It's not the cheapest option, but it sure has eliminated a lot of headaches & hassles from my life. I like it. I don't know if I'll continue to lease forever or what, but I think I'm on my fourth or fifth lease now and I have ended up really liking it. And there's always good deals floating around...the new Altima is zero down, $259/mo with 38mpg highway and an 18-gallon tank, so that's not too shabby for cruising around in if you can swing the monthly payment. This electric car looks pretty cool for my situation...I have a consistent commute, it fits within my car budget, and it's pretty cool. Dunno if I want the limitations of it - I've even been hesitant to try a diesel car because I can't just fill it up everywhere - but it's definitely something to explore.

 

[Kaido]

Have you looked at the Volt? I know they were having some great lease deals last year. I normally would never lease, but I think it is the only way I would get one of the all electric cars right now.

Yeah, the best I've seen is about $2400 down, $300 a month. That could probably be drawn out to $370 a month with no down payment, and it gets better range (~380 miles with electric + gas combo) with the gas-assist thing. Plus it gets 38 miles on electric-only so I could probably make it to work and back without needing to use gas. So while it's pricier out the door, theoretically I would still save that $160/mo+ in gas, which would cut my existing monthly bill by $30 ($240/Fit + $160/gas = $400) if I went with the no-down-payment option (assuming it's $370 or so). So it'd be like the Leaf, but I could also get the extra range just like a gas-powered car in a pinch if I needed to, which is a really nice safety net to have - but at the cost of $110 more a month than the Leaf, which is pretty significant.

For gas cars, I'm going back & forth between the Nissan Altima and the Honda Accord. The Accord is like the most boring car I've ever seen, but I have really simple requirements: automatic transmission (I sit in traffic for hours sometimes, so stick is bad, sadly), cruise control (I drive mostly highway), Bluetooth (cell phone), and MP3 jack. The Altima looks a bit nicer, gets a bit better gas mileage, and is a bit cheaper. I don't know squat about Nissans though, and my experience with Honda has been excellent, so I dunno. I did take a Rogue out for a test drive last year and really liked it, but again, the Honda Fit has been ridiculously reliable, so Honda gets a +1 in my book right now.

I also took a Prius out a few years ago. I like the concept, didn't like the visibility so much, and really didn't like the brief electric-to-gas hesitation when starting from 0mph, or the complete lack of guts when accelerating on the highway, like if you had to squeeze out past a semi-truck. However, they run nice $199 specials once in awhile, so it's not entirely bad. I also really like the Jetta TDI quite a bit, but it was also fairly pricey (I think $330/mo or something, can't remember if that was the lease or buy option).

 

[nerp]

I'm thinking of a leaf when my charger is paid off. I like the idea of an electric car for in-town grocery shopping, etc, that I can beat on. I could live with its range for the amount of driving I'd do with it.

 

[_Rick_]

I'm thinking of a leaf when my charger is paid off.

It's important that you get a charger before you get an electric car! What would you do if you ran out of charge otherwise!? :awe:



*deep breaths to calm down*

I think leasing electric cars is smart - you don't have to deal with getting rid of a car, that's got a dying, toxic battery. I think depreciation on a pure electrics will probably be higher, than on a similar Diesel engined car. That tilts the scales in favor of leasing.

 

[soulcougher73]

Edit: NM some how missed you said your Fit is a lease also lol

Why not keep your paid off in 4 month Fit? That is the most financial move.

 

[jaedaliu]

go for it. a 2 year lease on a new electric car means that you don't have to worry much about the battery deterioating.

Depending on how heavily you mash on the gas, the altima can get the advertised mileage.

All that said, I drive my cars into the ground. They end up costing between $1000 - $1500/year when averaged over the lifetime of the car. Of course, that means I'm replacing my car every 12 - 15 years.

 

[EagleKeeper]

In summer of '11, I test drove a Leaf in Detroit.

Quiet, excellent get up and go
I was at 80mph and no noise and did not feel like I was moving 3 adults in the vehicle.

Range is the only issue I have with it.
65-70 on the battery - with regenerative they claim 90-100.

with colder weather, use of the heater will reduce range.
however, one can also warm the vehicle up when charging; toasty vehicle in the AM before work :thumbsup: and run minimum heat on the way

To the OP;
Cut an agreement with the dealer to test the vehicle for a week to verify the range will work for work
Especially with the cold - will be harder than the summer on the battery system

 

[JTsyo]

55-70 mile range on a 40 mile commute would be cutting it too close for me. You sit in traffic during a cold day with the heat running and you can be in trouble. It's not like you could just walk to a gas station either. Something like the Volt makes more sense or one of the other plug-in hybrids. What's the range on a electric Focus?

 

[Aikouka]

For gas cars, I'm going back & forth between the Nissan Altima and the Honda Accord. The Accord is like the most boring car I've ever seen, but I have really simple requirements: automatic transmission (I sit in traffic for hours sometimes, so stick is bad, sadly), cruise control (I drive mostly highway), Bluetooth (cell phone), and MP3 jack. The Altima looks a bit nicer, gets a bit better gas mileage, and is a bit cheaper. I don't know squat about Nissans though, and my experience with Honda has been excellent, so I dunno. I did take a Rogue out for a test drive last year and really liked it, but again, the Honda Fit has been ridiculously reliable, so Honda gets a +1 in my book right now.

I had my 2007 Altima for six years, and I had a pretty good experience with it. My mom has the 2013 2.5-liter Altima, and she likes the car. I would have no qualms with recommending it to someone.

 

[mmntech]

IMO, electric cars and hybrids just aren't practical. I don't have anything against the technology, more petrol for the rest of us. I just don't think the technology and economics have caught up to make the cost-benefits reasonable. The time span to recoup the higher purchase price in gas savings is too long. Usually longer than most people keep a car these days. Also worth noting is states are beginning to tax e-cars to recoup the loss in the gas tax.

To me the Leaf only makes sense in an urban environment as a runabout. For your commute you'd be better off purchasing a smaller, fuel efficient car. The Ford Fiesta is a very good choice IMO. Not a lot of power but they handle nice, ride nice, and you can get it reasonably equipped for not a lot of money. Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, and Kia Rio are also great picks.

 

[Kaido]

Edit: NM some how missed you said your Fit is a lease also lol

Why not keep your paid off in 4 month Fit? That is the most financial move.

Not necessarily interested in the most economical option...more concerned with reliability and a fixed payment with minimal repair cost surprises. Plus, after a down payment & charger, the Leaf's lease is about what I pay in gas every month :biggrin:

 

[Kaido]

I had my 2007 Altima for six years, and I had a pretty good experience with it. My mom has the 2013 2.5-liter Altima, and she likes the car. I would have no qualms with recommending it to someone.

My local dealer is having a killer special - 2013 Altima 2.5 S for zero down, zero first month payment, $259 a month for 36 months. The lease price is usually $359 for the S model...that's a lot of car for $259!

 

[jaedaliu]

My local dealer is having a killer special - 2013 Altima 2.5 S for zero down, zero first month payment, $259 a month for 36 months. The lease price is usually $359 for the S model...that's a lot of car for $259!

Just so you know, the S doesn't stand for sport. It's more like standard. It's like the Camry LE. Good luck finding one at a lower trim level.

 

[Doppel]

I know a lot about the Leaf and have a lot of first-hand experience with one.

My local dealer has a special for $1,999 down, $199 a month.

This is (probably) before tax, title, fees, etc, so don't forget to consider those as well. This is a decent deal but for the latter half of 2012 it was possible to get the same deal in some markets without the $1,999 down, which made the car an absolute steal: all said and done out of pocket 24 month lease on a Leaf could be had for $250 or less. I don't know what the best options are now, but mynissanleaf.com has a lease thread and you can see what others are paying. You can always be aggressive with the dealer and/or ship from out of state.

Charging/Range

You don't need a charging station if you don't want to swing it. A lot of people just plug into 120 at the end of the day and it's ready by the next day. There is an entire thread at the leaf forum of people who do this and own no charging station. 120V runs at 75% efficiency: Every kWh you put in you get only .75 kWh in the battery. 240 is more efficient at 85%. If you run the actual costs it's hardly meaningful, though. EPA rates this at 3.9 kWh. Some get higher, some lower. If you pay $.11/kWh, $4 gas is getting you (.75 or .85*36 kWh) in the battery= 27kWh. At 3.9 $4 of electricity thus buys you 105 miles. The reason this is rated at "99 mpge) is because an electric gallon equivalent is 33 kWh IIRC, and 3.9X33 = 128. After efficiency loss you're down to the 99. Hopefully I didn't mess up a number or two there but that's the gist of it.

The mileage is 73 est. It will gradually drop as the years go by. However, the cold weather mileage can be worse than 55. If you have the heat on full and you're on the highway, even a 100% charge will have you more realistically in the 40's.

Two things that murder range are using heat and more significantly being on the highway. Both combined it does suffer. On the other hand, AC actually uses quite little energy, and when the battery is warm in the summer you can quite easily top the estimated range.

Driving

The thing drives very nicely, far better than a Prius, and the EV drive train is quite pleasant. It pulls hard to 40 mph or so and then backs off a lot, so its 0-60 is not great (~10 seconds), but it feels like a quicker car (and to 40 it is a quicker car than any other 10 second 0-60 vehicle).

It is fairly well documented that owners of these cars are discovering that the efficiency of the batteries is decreasing more rapidly than they should.

In hot climates this is true, but in colder climates it may end up degrading slower. There is a multiplier I've seen people apply, like in Phoenix it degrades at 1.4X normal rate, in Washington state .75X (numbers something like that, anyway). This is all totally moot for a person leasing unless they are in a very hot climate and are pushing its range to begin with.

Range is the only issue I have with it.
65-70 on the battery - with regenerative they claim 90-100.

Actually the EPA 73 is with regen. Nissan has long touted this as a 100 mile car, but it's only using a certain (unrealistic) testing cycle, one that is very kind on range. There is even a 100 mile club of people who've gotten 100 on a charge, so it's not an every day occurrence!

however, one can also warm the vehicle up when charging; toasty vehicle in the AM before work and run minimum heat on the way

Absolutely. If OP uses a 120V setup the pre-heating is less than 240V, but it's still there. He can always tell the car via his smart phone to pre-heat when he's at work, too, and it will make it hot (or cold in summer) before he gets in the car.

IMO, electric cars and hybrids just aren't practical. I don't have anything against the technology, more petrol for the rest of us. I just don't think the technology and economics have caught up to make the cost-benefits reasonable.

I agree mostly with electrics. Unless one can get a great lease deal the numbers don't work. Hybrids are mature and often quite cost-effective, though.

 

[Kaido]

Just so you know, the S doesn't stand for sport. It's more like standard. It's like the Camry LE. Good luck finding one at a lower trim level.

Yeah, I wanted the S for the cruise control (I drive mostly highway miles).

 

[Kaido]

You don't need a charging station if you don't want to swing it. A lot of people just plug into 120 at the end of the day and it's ready by the next day. There is an entire thread at the leaf forum of people who do this and own no charging station. 120V runs at 75% efficiency: Every kWh you put in you get only .75 kWh in the battery. 240 is more efficient at 85%. If you run the actual costs it's hardly meaningful, though. EPA rates this at 3.9 kWh. Some get higher, some lower. If you pay $.11/kWh, $4 gas is getting you (.75 or .85*36 kWh) in the battery= 27kWh. At 3.9 $4 of electricity thus buys you 105 miles. The reason this is rated at "99 mpge) is because an electric gallon equivalent is 33 kWh IIRC, and 3.9X33 = 128. After efficiency loss you're down to the 99. Hopefully I didn't mess up a number or two there but that's the gist of it.

The mileage is 73 est. It will gradually drop as the years go by. However, the cold weather mileage can be worse than 55. If you have the heat on full and you're on the highway, even a 100% charge will have you more realistically in the 40's.

Two things that murder range are using heat and more significantly being on the highway. Both combined it does suffer. On the other hand, AC actually uses quite little energy, and when the battery is warm in the summer you can quite easily top the estimated range.

Thanks for the info! I stopped by Nissan last night, but they didn't have any Leafs charged up & ready to go. They mentioned the same thing - a lot of people are skipping the chargers and just plugging it into the wall instead. Electric is a fun idea, but I also checked out the Versa sedan (40mpg), Sentra sedan (39mpg), and Altima sedan (38mpg). The Sentra felt like a rental car, didn't like it much. The Versa sedan I liked a lot more than the Sentra surprisingly, although it was a bit bouncy on the highway because it was so lightweight (and I didn't realize the Versa sedan was an entirely different car than the Versa hatchback). However, the Altima S was only $6 more a month with zero down than the Versa sedan with their current special, and was a much nicer car.

I live in CT (cold) and I use the highway for most of my commute, so I'd definitely have the heat on a lot during the winter, so the Leaf is sounding less & less like a good idea from what you are saying. It'd almost work great, but I can get a 38mpg Altima for around the same price and have no range limits. I have 4 months to think about it (before my leases are up), so I'm not in any rush. I'll be going down to Honda this week as well, since they can roll my Fit over into something else and have rebates because I'm an existing customer. The Accord sedan seems decent, and I'll check out the Civic and Odyssey as well, but I like the Altima the most so far - comfortable, fuel-efficient, nice price, great range on a full tank.

 

[Kaido]

To me the Leaf only makes sense in an urban environment as a runabout. For your commute you'd be better off purchasing a smaller, fuel efficient car. The Ford Fiesta is a very good choice IMO. Not a lot of power but they handle nice, ride nice, and you can get it reasonably equipped for not a lot of money. Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, and Kia Rio are also great picks.

I checked out the Fiesta when I got the Fit, and didn't even bother taking it for a test drive...the interior was soooo small :biggrin: I also checked out the Yaris, which seemed pretty...cheap. I felt like I was going to break off the shifter lol. My parents have a Versa hatchback and it's not bad; the Versa sedan was a lot nicer. So far I've liked the Fit the best out of the sub-compact models, I may look into another one. The Altima is still the most compelling for the price though.

I also looked into sports cars...amazingly, the new Camaro gets 30mpg highway for the 323hp V6 model, and the new Mustang gets 31mpg. The Camaro is going for $285 a month with zero down (plus tax etc.) too, so there's some interesting options in the sub-$300, >30mpg range...

 

[Kaido]

Okay, nevermind on the Camaro...very small inside & RWD (snow performance...). Still have some Hondas to check out, but I'm liking the Altima the most. I don't have to do anything for the next 4 months though, so I'm in no rush.

Is anyone familiar with Hyundais? I had a good experience with Kia. The Sonata might be worth taking out for a test drive.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Okay, nevermind on the Camaro...very small inside & RWD (snow performance...). Still have some Hondas to check out, but I'm liking the Altima the most. I don't have to do anything for the next 4 months though, so I'm in no rush.

Is anyone familiar with Hyundais? I had a good experience with Kia. The Sonata might be worth taking out for a test drive.

I love my 2011 Sonata, but I understand the styling isn't for everyone.
If it isn't your thing check out the Kia Optima, same platform but different styling and slightly different interior.

 

[LTC8K6]

I checked out the Fiesta when I got the Fit, and didn't even bother taking it for a test drive...the interior was soooo small :biggrin: I also checked out the Yaris, which seemed pretty...cheap. I felt like I was going to break off the shifter lol. My parents have a Versa hatchback and it's not bad; the Versa sedan was a lot nicer. So far I've liked the Fit the best out of the sub-compact models, I may look into another one. The Altima is still the most compelling for the price though.

I also looked into sports cars...amazingly, the new Camaro gets 30mpg highway for the 426hp V6 model, and the new Mustang gets 31mpg. The Camaro is going for $285 a month with zero down (plus tax etc.) too, so there's some interesting options in the sub-$300, >30mpg range...

I think you're a little off there... :biggrin:

Unless they put a blower on the 3.6