I'm not saying you shouldn't raise the minimum wage, I said without other steps it's got some major downsides to it. Sure, maybe current employees get a raise, but other people won't a get job with benefits because of the backend dynamic of the uber-ization of the economy. I'm saying it's not "all good" by itself, it's good in some ways, bad in others.
I'm not saying you shouldn't raise the minimum wage, I said without other steps it's got some major downsides to it. Sure, maybe current employees get a raise, but other people won't a get job with benefits because of the backend dynamic of the uber-ization of the economy. I'm saying it's not "all good" by itself, it's good in some ways, bad in others.
Paratus
Lifer
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Do you guys see the problem here. Even after separating hourly compensation from productivity back in the 70’s businesses still haven’t been able to truly drive hourly compensation down.
We know from the third world that people can live on about $2 a day or $0.25/hour so that would be the lower limit of hourly compensation businesses should be aiming for. Continue to extract more productivity from each worker and profit margins should soar which is good for shareholders and therefore required by law.
Now I’m not sure what affect driving hourly wages down to nothing would do to market liquidity but I’m sure it won’t have anywhere near the negative effects of paying people who don’t deserve it $15 an hour.
Business is narrowly focused on their bottom line, and there is considerable debate over shareholder vs. stakeholder value. Government deficit spending is generally good, and it does transfers. Raising minimum wage is similar to EITC or food stamps for low income earners.
All the studies that have come out show insignificant job losses. The only risk I can see is with the states with low median wages. We already essentially do this for many jobs whether from the employee having better bargaining via government/public sentiment, credential creep, or a wage premium and better work conditions due to unionization.
Meghan54
Lifer
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And this is the essence of damned near every conservative argument against anything that would benefit the lowest of the low......they don't deserve it.....whether it's higher wages via min. wage increase, health care/ins., housing, etc.
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Yes, but most people aren't living in CA. If you made $400k where I live you'd be in a very good spot financially. For example, I pay $700 for rent.
Good luck finding a place to rent for $2k, let alone $700.
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I know someone from high school who will be retiring from the local fire department at 45 years old in a few days. He was the fire chief. His salary at retirement is over $160k. I can't even imagine what his pension will be. I'm sure it's going to be amazing. His father was a fireman, and he got the job at 19 years old. I heard that he wants to be a state inspector. They make six-figures as well. When he's in his 60's and retired he will have two huge pensions, plus great health care for life. He knew how to play the system. I'm not mad at him. He was groomed at an early age to be a fireman. His dad knew how to play the system, so he did the same thing. Also, I went to school with kids who had wealthy parents. They have never worked a day in their life.
Life isn't fair. If I had kids that would be the first thing that I would teach them.
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Bitek
Lifer
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Honestly, it's the greatest thing ever.
Who wants to pump gas when it's raining, cold or mucky outside?
No thanks, just stay in the warm, dry car.
To the OP, I think we will see more automation and other changes.
Once spoke to an American expat running a large restaurant in Sweden with high wages. The difference he explained would be that the Swedes would cover more tables and he reorganises the shift patterns. Overall people are happier over there in his experience (obviously he is.)
What I'm hoping to see as well is that this forces all wages up a bit. Eg, can't pay a recent college grad/journeyman plumber $16 when they can just go down to McDonald's for $15. Everyone will have to innovate.
I'm not sure where you are getting that teachers or cops for that matter are hurdling past 6 figure for both earnings and retirement. Average wage of teachers is about $58k and cops is about $65k. Now, teachers and Cops should be getting 6 figure incomes. Education is the foundation of our future, and cops is the foundation of keeping our cities safe.
My point, is if one wants to make a point about something, lets not use exaggerated numbers.
herm0016
Diamond Member
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it's not sad that people have to work shit jobs for low pay to get by?? i think we should be helping them learn new skills. i think trade schools should be nearly free for almost anyone, and community college totally tax deductible.
true. and the employment rate is still very high, people have to work on the machines, the economy keeps expanding. The price of labor does effect the business as well, weather it fits in your world view or not.
it's like saying an increase in property taxes should not increase the cost of housing for renters. of course it does. i provide 2 homes for very nice families, and i break even at the end of the year. i get my mortgage paid and the increase in equity, and they get good housing priced exactly at market value. when taxes go up, i have to raise the rent. its really quite simple. same with the increase in the cost of maintenance. prices will always rise due to lots of factors, and min wage is one of them.
lots of wrong assumptions there...
not necessarily against an increase in min wage, just a realist when it comes to the consequences of government policy.
ch33zw1z
Lifer
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herm0016
Diamond Member
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should have written, tax payer funded. i bet it would be save overall to fund trade schools, and you could see a decrease in unemployment benefits or other social programs.
fuck sake, cant say anything in here without someone calling you out for having a damn idea. it's why nothing will ever happen in the fucking country. everyone is too worried about there idea being "right" and wont listen or try anything else.
fuck sake, cant say anything in here without someone calling you out for having a damn idea. it's why nothing will ever happen in the fucking country. everyone is too worried about there idea being "right" and wont listen or try anything else.
Ichinisan
Lifer
- Oct 9, 2002
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Spoken like an ignorant person.
He's absolutely right. Gas stations should have no obligation to provide pointless gas-pumping jobs in the days of pay-at-the-pump technology. It's a bullshit law and there's no good justification for doing it in those states.
If someone literally can't do anything else, they may as well go on government assistance. Only two states that do it. There's no good reason.
Ichinisan
Lifer
- Oct 9, 2002
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There certainly has been inflation since the last federal minimum wage increase. You know that, right?
ch33zw1z
Lifer
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ch33zw1z
Lifer
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Sucks, right? Seems conservatives could do with some introspection.
Anything the D's has offered would be tax payer funded one way or another.
My post was obviously in the context of CA. It's a leetle exaggerated for teachers (roughly 80K), but not quite since they work around 20-25% less hours than a typical worker. CA cops have blown passed it and are exempt from the overtime rules.
Annual mean wage $101,380 (doesn't include overtime)
I don't think it has so much to do with bootstraps.
You sincerely have some severe mental issues if you can survive a life of just pumping gas for other capable people. Literally - you lack a purpose. You accomplish nothing. It sounds like a life entirely void of self-worth.
It sounds like... (gasp)... a part time job for a high school / college student. Crazy, I know.
Either way - people would easily choose to speak with their wallet and instead of paying extras for the cost of someone else pumping your gas, they would much rather do it themselves for free.
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Find me a journeyman plumber that will work for $20 an hour and I'll hire five today.
Pohemi
Lifer
- Oct 2, 2004
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Yep. Another excuse/justification for not needing a higher min wage: "those jobs are intended for teenagers and high-schoolers and they don't need higher pay! Anyone else can find a better jerb, or they just aren't motivated enough and can die in the gutter for all I care..."
Funny that the millions of service jobs in the country have enough teenagers to fill all those shifts, huh? rofl
Where do you get your figures on teachers working 20 to 25% less than other workers? Are you just counting the hours they are in the school. Or are you trying the age old myth that they get 3 months off in the summer? If you actually total up all hours worked (school hours, after school hours at home, weekend hours, requirements for keeping their teaching certification, etc). They actually put in more hours annually than the average worker.
To put it into perspective:
I Get Paid for 180 Days of Work Each Year, but I Actually Work More Than 250
It's a full-time job with part-time pay.
www.weareteachers.com
80k includes principle salaries, or at least from how I read this:
Average Salaries & Expenditure Percentage - CalEdFacts (CA Dept of Education)
This content is part of California Department of Education's information and media guide about education in the State of California.
As for police salaries:. 100k isn't sufficient for what they do. Specially in CA.
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Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Once again, prices are controlled by the market and not by producer costs. JHC how many times does that basic Econ 101 need to be repeated in this thread?
For example, in a hypothetical situation that a gas station that doesn't provide full service was able operate in the same market where every other gas station was required to provide full service, why would that one station owner reduce his prices by exactly the cost of providing full service? Obviously, he would lower his prices only just enough to offset his customers' perceived value of having their gas pumped for them (which for most people isn't worth that much), and he would pocket the difference as profit. Likewise, the opposite situation would occur with the full service station owners, who would not be able to pass on the costs of providing full service in their prices and still remain competitive, and would be forced to reduce their profits.
In either case, the producers' costs did not control consumers' prices. The market did that. And if prices were directly correlated to costs, that would literally be Marxism. Not figuratively, literally.
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Meghan54
Lifer
- Oct 18, 2009
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Geez.....quit trying to be the definition of dumbass, please. You know well what is being discussed....one of the age old trope conservatives trot out every time min. wage increases are talked about. Rampant inflation. Not what we've had the last decade or longer, which, btw, the Fed's been trying to increase.
I know for a fact that's not true just from experience. How sensical would it be if support staff or relatively easy to master subjects received around the same compensation if preparation was so burdensome? You do realize librarians and counselors get similar compensation and there is hardly any differential between teachers (from keyboarding to math), right?
Instructional time is far less than typical 1800 hrs. There is no way they're making that up outside of class, much less summer. Usually there is a block off during school that gives ample time to grade any assignments.
Do U.S. Teachers Really Teach More Hours?
A new study says U.S. teachers still lead the world in time spent in front of a class—but not as much as everyone thinks.
Teachers in the United States still lead the world in instructional time, but the analysis released last week by the Center for Benefit-Cost Studies of Education—based at Columbia University—finds their edge considerably slimmer:
• Primary school teachers in grades K-6 spend 12 percent, not 50 percent, more time leading class each year than the average in the 34 OECD member countries.
• Teachers in grades 7-9 teach 14 percent, not 65 percent, longer than their global peers.
• Upper-secondary teachers spend 11 percent, not 73 percent, longer on instructional time.
[...]
Instead, Mr. Abrams found, teachers often rounded each 45-minute class to the hour, rather than only rounding the weekly total. That meant teachers reported being in front of a class 5½ to 6½ hours a day, not counting breaks.
bls.gov It's 80K.
And non-union private sector employees with much less generous compensation packages should have to pay for that? We both know that's going into the taxes. We should look at supply and demand of qualified applicants. Cops and firefighters get a shitton of applicants because people know it's a good deal. But I digress. I brought it up as one reason to raise the minimum wage here.
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