Thoughts on Pay Scales/Rates/Ranges?

[Captante]

Well, I am, but that's another thread.

We figured that out a long time ago!

 

[Zeze]

We live in the golden age of more transparent pay ranges as a job seeker.

Linkedin, Glassdoor, etc...

I ask Recruiters about the pay on the first phone call too.

So no one wastes time.

 

[BarkingGhostar]

They'll just find another way to abuse you afterwards. Like, "Oh, that salary is inclusive of all your benefits, which is 35% of your advertised compensation."

 

[SKORPI0]

I used to see "salary/compensation will be commensurate with experience" in employment ads. Is that still a thing nowadays?

 

[Tweak155]

If a recruiter or company won't disclose at least a range before applying, it's a sign not to work there. I very rarely get contacted by a recruiter that won't provide at least a range (it's always in my first set of questions), and when they say "let's talk" I just say no thanks.

On the flip side of that, know what you want if you plan on seriously looking. When I reply back "no thanks, I need at least $x", a handful of times they'll come back and say they'll talk to the hiring manager. Even less than that handful though do they meet the demand, but I've had it happen.

It's much better when you know the goal is worth it when you go into the interview.

 

[deadlyapp]

If a recruiter or company won't disclose at least a range before applying, it's a sign not to work there. I very rarely get contacted by a recruiter that won't provide at least a range (it's always in my first set of questions), and when they say "let's talk" I just say no thanks.

On the flip side of that, know what you want if you plan on seriously looking. When I reply back "no thanks, I need at least $x", a handful of times they'll come back and say they'll talk to the hiring manager. Even less than that handful though do they meet the demand, but I've had it happen.

It's much better when you know the goal is worth it when you go into the interview.

I had a great company directly reach out to me recently based on a previous colleague recommending me. I had a first conversation with the hiring manager which was more to feel out the position and discuss, but the final conversation was around the pay that I would need to accept an offer, and I gave them a very rough upper scale. Second conversation was with the VP of HR where I laid out exactly the number that I'd need, and they took that number back to their president and came up with a top cap for the position, which was less than what I was asking, but I was completely transparent with them on my current comp and we ended up walking away from each other amicably because they couldn't meet the number. I wish every recruiter/HR worked like that, but realistically the recruiter (unless it's an internal) rarely knows the actual range for the position, because they're trying to sell you at the highest price they can (since they get paid the higher the offer) and the company is trying to sell you at the lowest price they can (to limit recruiter pay out and their own internal payroll).

Even as a hiring manager I sometimes don't know the top end of the scale unless I very specifically ask for it from HR, and if I get outside a certain percentage of the median range I have to justify the heck out of it.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

^^^ That's my whole point. None of that should happen.

In the initial public advertisement of the position, where ever it is, 'This position pays X and will graduate to X with seniority and experience'. Period. No offers. No negotiations. This is what it pays. If you don't like it, don't apply.

And no private offers. Every position needs to be posted publicly, even if someone within gets the job.

 

[deadlyapp]

^^^ That's my whole point. None of that should happen.

In the initial public advertisement of the position, where ever it is, 'This position pays X and will graduate to X with seniority and experience'. Period. No offers. No negotiations. This is what it pays. If you don't like it, don't apply.

And no private offers. Every position needs to be posted publicly, even if someone within gets the job.

Meh. I don't mind a couple of half hour conversations and keeping my interviewing skills sharp to get to that point. The next step of the interview process would have been flying out to the headquarters for a panel interview which is why we decided to call it rather than moving forward. I also don't mind selling myself and negotiating for salary and benefits (although I am in sales so maybe that's just something I like to do as a non-introvert).

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

^^ It's not about you.

It's about transparency and making sure all employees are paid the same for the same job.

 

[purbeast0]

Meh. I don't mind a couple of half hour conversations and keeping my interviewing skills sharp to get to that point. The next step of the interview process would have been flying out to the headquarters for a panel interview which is why we decided to call it rather than moving forward. I also don't mind selling myself and negotiating for salary and benefits (although I am in sales so maybe that's just something I like to do as a non-introvert).

LOL I do big time. I'm not wasting 30 minutes of my time only to be given a number that isn't even close to something realistic I would ever consider. I also don't need to worry about keeping any interviewing skills sharp. After being in my industry almost 18 years I know wtf I'm doing lol.

I still get recruiters hitting me up multiple times a week and still give my canned response. This has been going on for years and I've never once had one tell me they can offer me something more than I currently make. Most of the time though they won't give a hard number but the ones that do aren't even close.

And if you tell me "we offer highly competitive salaries" that is 100% a red flag that they don't pay well. It is VERY easy for me to tell if I would want to work for a company based on a job description and/or the initial introduction we have.

 

[ultimatebob]

ask them if they pay at least ATOT minimum wage

What's that up to now? 125K US, plus a Tesla model 3?

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

^^^^ Hey, no fair!!!! I only get paid fifty cents a post here.

 

[deadlyapp]

LOL I do big time. I'm not wasting 30 minutes of my time only to be given a number that isn't even close to something realistic I would ever consider. I also don't need to worry about keeping any interviewing skills sharp. After being in my industry almost 18 years I know wtf I'm doing lol.

I still get recruiters hitting me up multiple times a week and still give my canned response. This has been going on for years and I've never once had one tell me they can offer me something more than I currently make. Most of the time though they won't give a hard number but the ones that do aren't even close.

And if you tell me "we offer highly competitive salaries" that is 100% a red flag that they don't pay well. It is VERY easy for me to tell if I would want to work for a company based on a job description and/or the initial introduction we have.

Just because you know what you're doing and arrogant about your skills doesn't mean it's not good to practice every so often and feel out the market (more than just random recruiters banging on your linkedin profile). Yes, you shouldn't have a half hour call if they are let's say 20+% below your go/no-go price, but anything less than that can easily be worked out with other pieces.

For a simple recruiter - yes I wouldn't give them the time of day if they can't give me a range.

 

[purbeast0]

Just because you know what you're doing and arrogant about your skills doesn't mean it's not good to practice every so often and feel out the market (more than just random recruiters banging on your linkedin profile). Yes, you shouldn't have a half hour call if they are let's say 20+% below your go/no-go price, but anything less than that can easily be worked out with other pieces.

For a simple recruiter - yes I wouldn't give them the time of day if they can't give me a range.

Nope because if a place's high end is even 10% less than what I'm making now, there is no realistic way they will go up and above what I am making now to give me an incentive to leave my current position.

If they could, they would have told me that up front.

And if they can, the fact that they DIDN'T tell me upfront means I don't want to work for them.

Even 10% of my current salary is significant.

 

[brianmanahan]

What's that up to now? 125K US, plus a Tesla model 3?

i dunno, a tesla 3 costs less than a bmw m3...

 

[Zeze]

I used to see "salary/compensation will be commensurate with experience" in employment ads. Is that still a thing nowadays?

Yes... but at least in IT Sector, pay is almost always upfront... at least by the end of first recruiter call.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

One step ....


In NYC, ads for jobs will have to say what they pay

By JENNIFER PELTZtoday

NEW YORK (AP) — Help wanted. The job: putting one of the nation’s most far-reaching salary disclosure laws into practice. Location: New York City.
Just four months ago, city lawmakers overwhelmingly voted to require many ads for jobs in the nation’s most populous city to include salary ranges, in the name of giving job applicants — particularly women and people of color — a better shot at fair pay.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I was offered a position as Practice Director at a company. I turned it down for a few different reasons, but when I called and told then, they immediately threw another $20K on top of what they offered. I was kind of pissed off, because when I had my first interview, I told them what I wanted and their initial offer was below that and only after the $20K was added was it in the range I wanted.

And I've actually seen that in the last 2 offers I got - both of which I turned down. I clearly told them in the first call what my requirement was and when the offer came, it wasn't what I asked for. Why waste my time or yours when I was clear on what I wanted, especially in this market and especially when the first company (a huge international consulting firm) even said: "We're losing lots of people to places paying more."

 

[ultimatebob]

i dunno, a tesla 3 costs less than a bmw m3...

OK... I guess that we need to upgrade the ATOT "Staff Car" of choice from a BMW M3 to a Tesla Model S. Maybe a Model S Plaid if you got some of those crazy Bitcoin or tech stonk gains.

I've heard that software developers in my area get getting offers in the $150K range now. That's pretty nutty... I can remember when $80K was a decent opening offer.

 

[brianmanahan]

I've heard that software developers in my area get getting offers in the $150K range now. That's pretty nutty... I can remember when $80K was a decent opening offer.

150$k is pretty much going rate for a senior dev in cheap markets now

silicon valley is 150-250$k for new grads and 500$k+ for good devs with several years of experience

(though a lot of that silicon valley comp is RSUs, which i think fluctuate with stock prices which aren't doing so hot now)

 

[IndyColtsFan]

150$k is pretty much going rate for a senior dev in cheap markets now

silicon valley is 150-250$k for new grads and 500$k+ for good devs with several years of experience

(though a lot of that silicon valley comp is RSUs, which i think fluctuate with stock prices which aren't doing so hot now)

I got some RSUs as a "retention bonus" when we were acquired late last year. I still plan to leave. lol

 

[purbeast0]

I was offered a position as Practice Director at a company. I turned it down for a few different reasons, but when I called and told then, they immediately threw another $20K on top of what they offered. I was kind of pissed off, because when I had my first interview, I told them what I wanted and their initial offer was below that and only after the $20K was added was it in the range I wanted.

And I've actually seen that in the last 2 offers I got - both of which I turned down. I clearly told them in the first call what my requirement was and when the offer came, it wasn't what I asked for. Why waste my time or yours when I was clear on what I wanted, especially in this market and especially when the first company (a huge international consulting firm) even said: "We're losing lots of people to places paying more."

That is why you just ignore companies that won't tell you upfront what the pay range is.

I get hit up by like 5+ recruiters a week and I ALWAYS respond with the same exact thing saying I'm happy but open to hearing about stuff, let me know pay range and benefits and I'll let you know if I'll realistically consider it.

90% of the time, if they even reply, it is "they dont have a set range and will pay for top talent" or "they are competitive" blah blah blah.

I just tell em thanks but not interested.

No chance I'm wasting any more than 30 seconds of my time writing a message back to them if they can't tell me what the potential pay is. If they aren't telling me, then I am 100% positive it is less than I'm making, because if you were offering more than what I'm making, you would have good people lined up to interview.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

I was offered a position as Practice Director at a company.

I had my first interview, I told them what I wanted

The Hail with what you want. That's exactly the point of this thread. Every applicant needs to see the same figures.

This position pays this range $X to $X, commensurate with experience.

You don't like it? Lump it.


And why the hail would they want a practice director? Can't they shoot for a real director?

 

[jpiniero]

That is why you just ignore companies that won't tell you upfront what the pay range is.

They want you to say what you want, not give a range. If you're not willing to play that game the recruiter probably isn't interested either.

What candidates are looking for might be considered useful info. They might not even be trying to actually fill a position, just trying to get Intel.

 

[purbeast0]

They want you to say what you want, not give a range. If you're not willing to play that game the recruiter probably isn't interested either.

What candidates are looking for might be considered useful info. They might not even be trying to actually fill a position, just trying to get Intel.

And that is why they lose out on the better candidates, because they play stupid games that are outdated. A recruiters end game is to get a candidate hired so they can get their cut so if their game that they are playing means they aren't going to get someone hired, then yeah, good for them I guess.

You aren't going to pick someone off who is happy with their current job without any sort of incentive. Telling me up front you can pay me $X more than I currently make can definitely be an incentive to proceed about hearing more information. Telling me up front you can only pay me -$X more than I currently make will save both of us a lot of time.

If you can't do either of those, then I have no interest in wasting my time with you because I know you can't pay me enough to make me jump ship.